Incentive / mercy in scoring systems

[cody]

low <----------------------- Incentive ---------------------------> high

bragging rights only . . . . . . . . . . . extends, weapon power, etc
under defeat. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . radiant silvergun


low <----------------------- Mercy ------------------------------> high

single mistake ends score run. . . . . . . small mistakes, small effect
*DonPachi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ESP*


I tend to like scoring systems that are merciful & provide incentives, otherwise I'm likely to ignore scoring and just play the game for survival. Anyone else's taste in scoring systems run along identifiable lines?

[PROMETHEUS]

I'm with you on this one regarding the mercy factor. Even though my favorite game is DDP, I think it's scoring system is a bit too unmerciful. Whereas EspRaDe is definitely more merciful and it's an enjoyable side of it's scoring system.

As for the incentive side of a score system, I think a score system is incentive if it makes the game intelligently harder, not if it gives me access to some bonus or hidden stuff. I think that is the most important part of a scoring system.

[Rob]

I tend to like scoring systems that are merciful & provide incentives, otherwise I'm likely to ignore scoring and just play the game for survival. Anyone else's taste in scoring systems run along identifiable lines?

I agree that it is the best type of design, but I don't think it really matters that much. Who would put in the time to chain in Ikaruga just for the extra lives? I either like the scoring system or I don't. I would much prefer an extra life system like Ikaruga's to Giga Wing, but I'd choose the latter every time.

Mercy is more crucial. I'd prefer something more in the middle. When a game is ruined by a tiny mistake no one but the player would care about I think there is a little problem. Something like Shikigami feels a little too forgiving to me, though. I think it is best to reward a player for mastering each stage individually. That is the perfect middle ground for me.

[BulletMagnet]

I'd prefer something more in the middle.

On the other hand, there are also a handful of games which give you several scoring options, with varying degrees of difficulty and rewards - if you want to use DDP as an example, you've got the basic stuff (bee medals, star items), something to go for as you improve (boss hit bonus, max bomb bonus) and another once you start mastering it (chaining). I kind of like the idea of giving yourself more to try for as you learn the game better.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, it's appealing when a scoring system offers up nearly infinite depth. And along these lines, I like it when there are a variety of solutions with various advantages/disadvantages-- I like a variety of creative possibilities before me.

[stanski]

I'd prefer something more in the middle.

On the other hand, there are also a handful of games which give you several scoring options, with varying degrees of difficulty and rewards - if you want to use DDP as an example, you've got the basic stuff (bee medals, star items), something to go for as you improve (boss hit bonus, max bomb bonus) and another once you start mastering it (chaining). I kind of like the idea of giving yourself more to try for as you learn the game better.

Maybe its just me, but when learning to play dodonpachi, I tried to chain first, then go for max bomb bonus, then go for bee medals, then boss bonus and stars. Why bother with the little shit that hardly affects score?

[DJ Incompetent]

freeform dodgin' is win

I Rz n00b

[PROMETHEUS]

I'd prefer something more in the middle.

On the other hand, there are also a handful of games which give you several scoring options, with varying degrees of difficulty and rewards - if you want to use DDP as an example, you've got the basic stuff (bee medals, star items), something to go for as you improve (boss hit bonus, max bomb bonus) and another once you start mastering it (chaining). I kind of like the idea of giving yourself more to try for as you learn the game better.

Maybe its just me, but when learning to play dodonpachi, I tried to chain first, then go for max bomb bonus, then go for bee medals, then boss bonus and stars. Why bother with the little shit that hardly affects score?

Yeah, I wish they were a little better incorporated. Those bees are hardly worth anything.

[cody]

I think it is best to reward a player for mastering each stage individually. That is the perfect middle ground for me.

I think that's true as well . . . but DDP is that way, and it sometimes still feels like break the chain halfway through a level, might as well reset. For e.g. chain based games, I still prefer that missing an enemy not result in a broken chain, just lower score. . . I guess space-based chaining (color, bullet-conversion, whatever) seems more merciful to me than time based chaining ( before they go off screen / drop hit counter).

I like a variety of creative possibilities before me

It seems like merciful scoring systems necessarily involve variety (i.e. don't kill that particular enemy because it's too hard, in exchange for a minor score hit), but I'm not sure the converse is true. It seems like collectemups where you have a choice of which drops to activate (and cant get to them all) but still have to get them before they go off screen are in the "flexible but unmerciful" category.

Any strongly incentive-based scoring systems I should keep my eye out for? e.g. Batsugun's leveling up is strictly kills, not scoring, right?

[BulletMagnet]

Yeah, I wish they were a little better incorporated. Those bees are hardly worth anything.

The thing about the bees is that they give you a basic idea of what the best chaining route is - they do the same in DOJ. Point-wise, yeah, they're not worth a heck of a lot, but they're still worth tracking down, as they lead to bigger things.

For e.g. chain based games, I still prefer that missing an enemy not result in a broken chain, just lower score. . .

Mushi works a bit more like that, as if you stop killing enemies for too long your multiplier drops, but doesn't instantly revert to zero, so you're penalized but not completely screwed if you can get back on track quickly enough. DDP2 does something like this as well, but to the point where it's hardly "chaining" at all, it's more like "keep shooting and not dying and your score will go up."

[PROMETHEUS]

For e.g. chain based games, I still prefer that missing an enemy not result in a broken chain, just lower score. . .

Mushi works a bit more like that, as if you stop killing enemies for too long your multiplier drops, but doesn't instantly revert to zero, so you're penalized but not completely screwed if you can get back on track quickly enough.

Yeah, I like this concept in Mushi, it's an evolution to the chaining based score systems imo. Guwange is even more merciful, it is easy to maintain your chain and instead it lets you choose many different ways of chaining the stages, some of which will be a little harder and give you a little more points.

[stanski]

Yeah, I wish they were a little better incorporated. Those bees are hardly worth anything.

The thing about the bees is that they give you a basic idea of what the best chaining route is - they do the same in DOJ. Point-wise, yeah, they're not worth a heck of a lot, but they're still worth tracking down, as they lead to bigger things.

i don't see how the bees "point out" a best route at all. They aren't like signs that tell you "be in this position at this certain time" like you need to do in DDP. In level 3, how exactly do they point out the best route?

The bees are worthless unless you can collect all of them while chaining. I can barely open up all of them past stage 1, so they are basically worthless to me.

[Arvandor]

I agree that it is the best type of design, but I don't think it really matters that much. Who would put in the time to chain in Ikaruga just for the extra lives?

*raises hand* I got pretty proficient at chaining the first two stages, then could ghetto chain certain parts of stages 3 and 4. Those extra 2-3 lives certainly helped me finally 1cc the game ^_^ And if I had cared, I was well on my to learning how to score well.

Anyways, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I like the super strict scoring system of Dodonpachi (though I mostly play for survival after stage 2), sometimes I feel like medal gathering and toss in Garegga or Gunbird 2 to a strange extent. Sometimes I just feel like blowing the shit out of everything in front of me, and will toss in Batsugun. Then sometimes I'll want a fairly open-ended scoring system in a manic style game with fun dodging, and will throw in ESPgaluda or Mars Matrix. Or maybe I'll just want to play something completely effing different and will throw in Triggerheart, Cotton 2, Purikura Daisakusen, or Game Tengoku.

I've probably got the least picky tastes in shooters of anyone on this board. I'm even warming up to Garegga, and am actually starting to like it. My biggest and only pet peeve are shooters where if you die late in the game you're done for. Darius and Gradius style bullshit... Yet I still enjoy them enough to throw 'em in every once in a while.

[PROMETHEUS]

Yeah, I wish they were a little better incorporated. Those bees are hardly worth anything.

The thing about the bees is that they give you a basic idea of what the best chaining route is - they do the same in DOJ. Point-wise, yeah, they're not worth a heck of a lot, but they're still worth tracking down, as they lead to bigger things.

i don't see how the bees "point out" a best route at all. They aren't like signs that tell you "be in this position at this certain time" like you need to do in DDP. In level 3, how exactly do they point out the best route?

The bees are worthless unless you can collect all of them while chaining. I can barely open up all of them past stage 1, so they are basically worthless to me.

Sometimes they do help you get an extra hit that will help build your chain, or will indeed point you in the right direction (you will kind of need to pass here to chain anyway). Sometimes it is more like a challenge to try to grab them while keeping your chain. It just depends on which bee.

[wiNteR]

On the other hand, there are also a handful of games which give you several scoring options, with varying degrees of difficulty and rewards - if you want to use DDP as an example, you've got the basic stuff (bee medals, star items), something to go for as you improve (boss hit bonus, max bomb bonus) and another once you start mastering it (chaining). I kind of like the idea of giving yourself more to try for as you learn the game better.

But this doesn't change the fact that the scoring system offers only one restrictive pattern for best scoring. There is a cartain appeal for restrictive patterns but still, in my opinion, scoring systems with flexible patterns are better e.g. medal chain. Also, actually having creative scoring oppurtunities (not number of scoring oppurtunities like DDP) is a really good thing (like progear or espgaluda).I am sorry I didn't contribute anything to the actual topic but I think this discussion is also relevant to merits of a scoring system.

[PROMETHEUS]

On the other hand, there are also a handful of games which give you several scoring options, with varying degrees of difficulty and rewards - if you want to use DDP as an example, you've got the basic stuff (bee medals, star items), something to go for as you improve (boss hit bonus, max bomb bonus) and another once you start mastering it (chaining). I kind of like the idea of giving yourself more to try for as you learn the game better.

But this doesn't change the fact that the scoring system offers only one restrictive pattern for best scoring. There is a cartain appeal for restrictive patterns but still, in my opinion, scoring systems with flexible patterns are better e.g. medal chain. Also, actually having creative scoring oppurtunities (not number of scoring oppurtunities like DDP) is a really good thing (like progear or espgaluda).I am sorry I didn't contribute anything to the actual topic but I think this discussion is also relevant to merits of a scoring system.

The thing is, even when your scoring system allows creative play, don't you always end up creating one pattern that you'll always follow anyway ? Because if you don't, you're probably going to make mistakes and not optimize your score. Or, even if several path are open to you for optimal scoring, you still end up knowing one of them, or all of them perfectly, then following one of them strictly in your run. Isn't that how it works in Mars Matrix or Progear, espgaluda, Raiden Fighters... ?

[Pirate1019]

The difference is the experimentation needed to learn all of these different paths you speak of. I think Icarus could explain it better than me, being the Raizing goon that he is, but it's interesting to search for new scoring oportunities rather then nitpicking to find the only really effective one there is and then sticking to it.

[sfried]

Somehow, I'm starting to see a little bit of what Einhander was tring to achieve in terms of balancing between a mercyfull but fair scoring system: When you destroy an enemy, the combo guage goes up, but as time passes, the multiplyer decreases, so even if you do make a small error and miss a kill within the small time limit, it would only diminish your score by a little.

It's when these little mistakes are multiplied that you start to see a difference between players scores.

[PROMETHEUS]

The difference is the experimentation needed to learn all of these different paths you speak of. I think Icarus could explain it better than me, being the Raizing goon that he is, but it's interesting to search for new scoring oportunities rather then nitpicking to find the only really effective one there is and then sticking to it.

Personally, I lost interest in trying to figure out by myself which paths and scoring opportunities I could exploit in shmups. I enjoyed doing it on the first games I played, and ultimately on the 4 first stages of DDP, then I thought I had enough and I just watch videos and copy the path. Because trying to figure out how to score well by yourself is mostly just a trial and error algorithmic process. It was fun at first because it felt like a problem solving thing, playing around with the game's level design and such, but it takes way too much time imo.

[Pirate1019]

Too each their own. Some find it to be really fun to snoop around until you find something cool, like using a metal detector at the beach, others just like to take a given path and refine it as much as possible. The former play Raizing games while the latter play DDP: DOJ.

[Dandy J]

I tend to like scoring systems that are merciful & provide incentives, otherwise I'm likely to ignore scoring and just play the game for survival. Anyone else's taste in scoring systems run along identifiable lines?

Yeah, definitely. Although the biggest incentive for me is the scoring system's gotta be juicy. Like getting hemma gold in ESPGaluda, or seeing tons of gold flashing x16's in ESPRaDe. Or collecting tons of x300 roses in Ibara Black Label/Arrange. If a scoring system is really aesthetically pleasing, that's a huge plus for me.

[shoe-sama]

freeform dodgin' is win

I Rz n00b

[stanski]

The difference is, games like progear, giga wang, giga wang 2, mars matrix (yes ignore counter stopping) have no maximum (or close to maximum) score. There is a definate limit to how high you can score in DDP, namely by chaining all the levels, collecting all the bees, and bullet cancelling level 3. A TAS of DDP would not break 800 mill. A TAS of giga wang 2 would destroy records. That is what they are talking about with "free form" scoring, you can always find ways to optimize a bit/score slightly higher.

[PROMETHEUS]

The difference is, games like progear, giga wang, giga wang 2, mars matrix (yes ignore counter stopping) have no maximum (or close to maximum) score. There is a definate limit to how high you can score in DDP, namely by chaining all the levels, collecting all the bees, and bullet cancelling level 3. A TAS of DDP would not break 800 mill. A TAS of giga wang 2 would destroy records. That is what they are talking about with "free form" scoring, you can always find ways to optimize a bit/score slightly higher.

I don't understand, isn't there an approximated maximum possible score at every game anyway ?

[gavin19]

Although the biggest incentive for me is the scoring system's gotta be juicy. Like getting hemma gold in ESPGaluda, or seeing tons of gold flashing x16's in ESPRaDe. Or collecting tons of x300 roses in Ibara Black Label/Arrange. If a scoring system is really aesthetically pleasing, that's a huge plus for me.

I never really thought about it like that, but it is much more appealing when you can actually see the reward on-screen, instead of your score just going up a bit more. Now I know why those 3 games you mentioned are in fact my favourite 3 to play

[stanski]

The difference is, games like progear, giga wang, giga wang 2, mars matrix (yes ignore counter stopping) have no maximum (or close to maximum) score. There is a definate limit to how high you can score in DDP, namely by chaining all the levels, collecting all the bees, and bullet cancelling level 3. A TAS of DDP would not break 800 mill. A TAS of giga wang 2 would destroy records. That is what they are talking about with "free form" scoring, you can always find ways to optimize a bit/score slightly higher.

I don't understand, isn't there an approximated maximum possible score at every game anyway ?

No, and a lot of times these high scores prove to be way wrong due to developments people didn't expect. DDP is different in that there is a maximum score, there are no tactics you can really change in the game to make a huge difference in score.

[Rob]

giga wang, giga wang 2, mars matrix (yes ignore counter stopping) have no maximum (or close to maximum) score.

I don't see how you came up with that. As much as I'd like these games to be endless something like Giga Wang 2 feels severely limited after a while. Mars Matrix is much more open but surely there is a "close to maximum" score/exp.

[PROMETHEUS]

The difference is, games like progear, giga wang, giga wang 2, mars matrix (yes ignore counter stopping) have no maximum (or close to maximum) score. There is a definate limit to how high you can score in DDP, namely by chaining all the levels, collecting all the bees, and bullet cancelling level 3. A TAS of DDP would not break 800 mill. A TAS of giga wang 2 would destroy records. That is what they are talking about with "free form" scoring, you can always find ways to optimize a bit/score slightly higher.

I don't understand, isn't there an approximated maximum possible score at every game anyway ?

No, and a lot of times these high scores prove to be way wrong due to developments people didn't expect. DDP is different in that there is a maximum score, there are no tactics you can really change in the game to make a huge difference in score.

Which would only mean that people have not yet found out the best possible path that would lead to the approximated best possible score... Something that has been reached in DDP probably because it is more popular, not because it doesn't have as much depth.

[cody]

ESPGaluda. . . ESPRaDe . . .Ibara Black Label/Arrange

I never really thought about it like that, but it is much more appealing when you can actually see the reward on-screen, instead of your score just going up a bit more. Now I know why those 3 games you mentioned are in fact my favourite 3 to play

That's really weird . . . Dandy J has an excellent point, on screen feedback is as important as in-game feedback. . . that being said, galuda and ra.de. are two of my favorite games, but I couldn't stand Ibara.

[stanski]

giga wang, giga wang 2, mars matrix (yes ignore counter stopping) have no maximum (or close to maximum) score.

I don't see how you came up with that. As much as I'd like these games to be endless something like Giga Wang 2 feels severely limited after a while. Mars Matrix is much more open but surely there is a "close to maximum" score/exp.

I came up with that based on optimal medal collection methods. If someone TAS'd a game with a medal collection scoring system, the scores would sky rocket just from accurately placing themselves to get the maximum out of every medal dump.

What I'm saying is that a "close to maximum" estimate is probably within 5% of the score on DDP. Its within 25% on games with a more open scoring system.

In other words, what I'm saying is a human could get very close to a TAS (tool assisted super-play) in DDP. They really couldn't in a lot of other titles. I don't really see this as a bad thing at all, but I'm just trying to get to the original point about "open scoring systems." I don't see DDP as restrictive personally, because I am not good enough that I can chain and survive at the same time past level 3/4.

The reason we know the maximum in DDP is because the scoring system is so linked to enemy chaining, and there are a finite number of enemies in each stage. DP is a little more open ended, because its harder to chain/impossible to chain entire stages