Psikyo games suck because they're all so similar

[EOJ]

It didn't sound very sarcastic to me, but whatever.

[professor ganson]

The comparison to EA is a sloppy one, imo. The development of Psikyo's Sonic Wings-derived shooters involves discernible improvement in gameplay with each installment. Such steady improvement is remarkable. I could only hope that my own work would have that trajectory.

[captain ahar]

The comparison to EA is a sloppy one, imo. The development of Psikyo's Sonic Wings-derived shooters involves discernible improvement in gameplay with each installment. Such steady improvement is remarkable. I could only hope that my own work would have that trajectory.

hey... are you a teacher?

[CIT]

But the problem here is not that they are all similar.

You're right, but actually nobody was arguing that way anyway.

Psikyo's detractors will be the first to let you know that the real problem with Psikyo games is their "psikyoness".

Just some examples "psikyoness":

- Shit soundtracks
- Shit graphics (and I mean literally shit, with colors just about only ranging from light brown to dark brown EVEN in their cute 'em ups)
- no real scoring system in many of the games
- ripping off Raiden DX's scoring system about 5 years after that game, and still managing to make something far less involving and deep
- difficulty is not based on a risk-reward mechanism, but simply by making the patterns extremely hard to learn (randomizing stage order, making bullets too fast too see)
- highest power-up level only temporary
- your own shot always feels wimpy and lacks awesomeness. It's small, it has a wimpy sound, most enemies need to be hit several times before they die, there are no awesome explosions when you hit stuff
- In Dragon Blaze the dragons are too slow thereby making them suck

There's more, but I don't want to spend more time writing about something I feel sucks.


What's good about Psikyo:

- Sengoku Blade - because of Jun Tsukasa artwork (i.e. tits)
- Sengoku Cannon - because of Jun Tsukasa artwork (i.e. tits)

[Arvandor]

You are definitely right about that. The difference is Psikyo games with medal gathering are not all about that, they are little additions, something to do while tackling the focus of the game. Dodging bullets. Dodging bullets is something to do between chaining in those two Treasure games.

And then you have Cave games where you have to do both at the same time! There is no "between" time to catch your breath. It's good times =) Mars Matrix is cool like that too. If only it didn't have that lame ass counter stop, and had bosses that weren't absolute jokes.

I do enjoy Psikyo games though, just for the record. It's the counter-intuitive Raizing games that turn me off -_^

[captain ahar]

It's the counter-intuitive Raizing games that turn me off -_^

oooooohhhhh, medaling, tearing apart bosses piece by piece, suicide... god i love raizing. i want a tattoo of the max point medal from battle garegga on my forearm.

[Arvandor]

Actually, my biggest complaint with Garegga isn't one I ever hear about. I don't like the weapon "types" that give more points when killing certain enemies. Mainly because there's no way of knowing about that mechanic without being told, and even if you know about it, figuring out what gives the most points how isn't any fun.

[Icarus]

I don't like the weapon "types" that give more points when killing certain enemies.

Piercing = less points
Normal/Impact = more points

Not exactly rocket science.

[Twiddle]

when it comes to milking stage 5 boss and stage 7 cockpit piercing definitely ==morepoints

[louisg]

It means Under Defeat's rotation is closer to Gyrodine if you want to get technical.

Yes, that is very technical. I also don't see a problem with it.

The cool thing about Zero Gunner is being able to move around in a full circle.

I don't believe you moved in a full circle in Zero Gunner except for on the bosses. ..?

While Under Defeat will have a boss directly behind you and you'll only be able to shoot 45° (maybe less?) left or right. Poor.

A game is more than a feature list-- the 360 degree aiming, while I liked it, presented some problems which I already addressed.

For experienced full-time (assuming here) video game programmers. Responsible for developing Border Down. This is why I said relatively. Border Down took years to develop (iirc). G.Rev released it in 2003, they were working on Gradius V (2004), Under Defeat was released in October 2005 while I figure they were working on Senko no Ronde at the same time. Not exactly the same labored project as BD.

That is possibly level design vs. programming-- Border Down had many more levels. Wasn't BD their first Naomi, too? They may have been busy developing routines. But I don't see this argument... Please give me an actual reason why you think it would be harder to program Border Down than Under Defeat.

[Icarus]

when it comes to milking stage 5 boss and stage 7 cockpit piercing definitely ==morepoints

How many people here will actively try to milk Black Heart, the Glow Squid Carrier, Black Heart2 and Glow Squid?

Hmm.

[Twiddle]

when it comes to milking stage 5 boss and stage 7 cockpit piercing definitely ==morepoints

How many people here will actively try to milk Black Heart, the Glow Squid Carrier, Black Heart2 and Glow Squid?

Hmm.

nobody that wants to retain their sanity i'm sure

so that leaves like 3 maybe 4 people on this forum

[Icarus]

nobody that wants to retain their sanity i'm sure
so that leaves like 3 maybe 4 people on this forum

There you go.

Piercing = less points
Normal/Impact = more points
Particular perculiar tricks applicable only to lunatics.

[Twiddle]

speaking of lunatic goals i'm trying to shoot for an rfj 2loop ver. all3-all3 sometime in 2008 and then give up after all3ing the first loop and getting killed repeatedly on the way to 2-realbattle

(you can get a second loop by ALL2ing the first loop but that's just not manly)

Anyone complaining about Psikyo bullet patterns has yet to see the "bomb-only" RFJ bullet patterns. Those parts are cheap azz fuck yo

[jp]

Aw man, I thought this thread was going to be way cooler than it turned out to be.


Basically, if Sony and Cave were to make an entry in the Gradius series, I would rather play that than any one game Psikyo has made.

[Icarus]

speaking of lunatic goals i'm trying to shoot for an rfj 2loop ver. all3-all3 sometime in 2008 and then give up after all3ing the first loop and getting killed repeatedly on the way to 2-realbattle

(you can get a second loop by ALL2ing the first loop but that's just not manly)

Good luck. I've seen CYM 2-ALL RFJ and it's insane how slowly the suicide bullets move in the second.
Hope you're prepared for heaping big clouds of bullets moving at one frame every ten minutes.
</offtopic>

[Rob]

- difficulty is not based on a risk-reward mechanism, but simply by making the patterns extremely hard to learn (randomizing stage order, making bullets too fast too see)
- highest power-up level only temporary

Yes, they are just very difficult but there is some risk reward trade-offs (half for the very advanced players). Like not using bombs (if you can somehow stockpile 9 of them, it might be a 100,000 point bonus for each extra), grab extra power ups for 4000 points and keep pushing rank, and every scoring element is clearly risky (grabbing bonus items through a barrage of fast bullets, boss technical bonuses).

Second point refers to Sengoku Ace and Gunbird only.

And then you have Cave games where you have to do both at the same time! There is no "between" time to catch your breath. It's good times =) Mars Matrix is cool like that too. If only it didn't have that lame ass counter stop, and had bosses that weren't absolute jokes.

No I don't! When I play DOJ enemy chaining doesn't exist to me. I play Mars Matrix for the chaining and DOJ for the cool boss patterns. Combine both, best game ever.

Please give me an actual reason why you think it would be harder to program Border Down than Under Defeat.

You're using "program" here when I said develop. You're trying to use your programming knowledge to back me into a corner when my point was simply "Border Down is a complex game while Under Defeat consists of dodging bullet patterns that I could come up with in 30 minutes." I'm not a programmer and I'm sure that there is a lot of tedious work involved in even the stupidly simple games.

[louisg]

You're using "program" here when I said develop. You're trying to use your programming knowledge to back me into a corner when my point was simply "Border Down is a complex game while Under Defeat consists of dodging bullet patterns that I could come up with in 30 minutes." I'm not a programmer and I'm sure that there is a lot of tedious work involved in even the stupidly simple games.

Ok that's sort of fair.. but a good shooter is more than a bunch of bullet patterns. . And I don't remember Border Down's patterns being more elaborate. I know people are used to judging shmups by the complexity of their bullet patterns (and this may hold true for manic-style games), but this to me is something of a narrow criteria that ignores what made older shmups good. What Under Defeat does instead is place a lot of aimed shots, and it's careful with the enemy placement and enemy behavior. It's obvious that it was meticulously done and not just thrown together.

I think the characterization of Under Defeat as some sort of lazy easy-to-make game is completely without basis... and we are straying off topic.

[Rob]

What Under Defeat does instead is place a lot of aimed shots, and it's careful with the enemy placement and enemy behavior.

How careful does enemy placement have to be in a game with no in-depth scoring system or complex bullet patterns? They could move around just about anything and I would barely be able to tell without having the original to compare to. "Aimed shots" (I'll assume single bullet, since I guess that is the difference between it and every other shooter that is released with aimed patterns) are the simplest attacks to dodge unless there is some tank sneaking in from the side.

[Arvandor]

Until you get used to watching for popcorn enemies, those aimed bullets can sneak in through a cloud of simple pattern bullets and take you right out. On the whole though, the first loop of Under Defeat isn't exactly difficult, and is WAAAAAY too slow paced for my tastes. After I got pretty close to the 1cc, I started to get bored with it, I'd space out during luls in the action (I'd actually be thinking about other things, while playing a shooter, can you believe it?), and actually regressed in playing ability. So I dropped that one and started playing something else ^_^ Zero Gunner 2 I think, which has similar problems early on, but picks up in difficulty heavily later.

Anyways, I don't know all of what you guys are saying about Under Defeat, but on the whole it's not a game I see myself devoting a lot of time to. It's a "pull out and play when the mood strikes" type game.

[shinsage]

raiizing

raizing made 2 good games.

2.

[Twiddle]

sorcer striker
soukyugurentai
battle garegga
armed police batrider

4 (3 if you count batrider as a sequel)

[P_HAT]

sorcer striker
soukyugurentai
battle garegga
armed police batrider

4 (3 if you count batrider as a sequel)

+Brave Blade

EDIT: Oh, yeah, Psikyo suck. they make only 2 good game - ZG2(*GREAT*) and Pilot Kids(:lol: )

[Rob]

+BLOODY ROAR

[Ayanami]

No love for Greater Mahou or Shippu Mahou?

[Turrican]

- highest power-up level only temporary

Only a matter of time till we discover that Psikyo was involved with Salamander 2 development...

[Nuke]

Psikyo has more mechas

+1

[Twiddle]

No love for Greater Mahou or Shippu Mahou?

shippu: racing mode horribly broken
great: bad all around

[Frederik]

i want a tattoo of the max point medal from battle garegga on my forearm.

The Raizing logo - one of the most badass video game company logos ever created.

[louisg]

How careful does enemy placement have to be in a game with no in-depth scoring system or complex bullet patterns?

Good levels have to have thought put into them, regardless of the scoring system or bullet patterns. Check out some of the 16-bit shmups with completely haphazard and cluttered enemy placement if you don't believe me! UD levels are well-paced, and have a lot of variety. It's hardly some slapped together and rushed game, so I have no idea where this is coming from.

They could move around just about anything and I would barely be able to tell without having the original to compare to.

? the original?

"Aimed shots" (I'll assume single bullet, since I guess that is the difference between it and every other shooter that is released with aimed patterns) are the simplest attacks to dodge unless there is some tank sneaking in from the side.

Aimed shots are the simplest to comprehend, but they aren't the simplest to dodge. You should check out some of the Toaplan stuff on MAME, or even something like Stargate-- not trivial to win. I know players now are used to essentially bullet mazes. It's a different approach, and both styles have merit.