Psikyo games suck because they're all so similar

[shoe-sama]

lol memorization too frustrating?

[Pirate1019]

1945+ is a 1945 II remake lol

The difference being?

1. A bar for the charge shot
2. You can Chain the Medals if you so desire.

Not a whole lot.

moar liek

Dragon Blaze, Gunbird 2, Strikers 3

I don't think any of those are considered "straying off the path".

EDIT: Except for Dragon Blaze. That one was different.

[Frederik]

HOW ARE YOU DENEGERATE PRESIDENT.

Space Bomber is hot. Dragon Blaze is a great game too, even though I never played it enough to get a grip on it - it has more scoring potential then former Psykio games (aside from the coin chaining, which I found pretty distracting, but must feel good once you got it), and the art in this game is great, too. The one thing I never liked about most Psykio games is that the soundtracks sounds like somebody recorded those tunes in his pants, they just sound very muffled to me.

I think Psykio made good games in their own right, but they can´t hold a candle to either the newer Cave or Raizing games in terms of pure style and slickness of gameplay.

And has anybody any impressions on Pilot Kids?

[JoshF]

Psikyo caused 9/11, that's all were saying.

[Damocles]

And has anybody any impressions on Pilot Kids?

It's pretty simple, but has an interesting scoring system. Basically you use your secondary fire button to target enemies and add them to a "chain". Then, you hit your main fire button and a guided missile seeks out all the enemies in order and adds a multiplier for consecutive hits.

Personally, I like it. Too many of the bullets are destructable, the levels are short, and bosses are simple (though very clever and fun). ...c'mon, you gotta love the lawn gnome that accosts you as a boss.

[Rob]

slickness of gameplay.

Horrendous amounts of slowdown is not very slick.

[roker]

I wouldn't say they're in the league of cave and raiizing, but they have a few games that are pretty good

I think they're pretty weak in the presentation dept., but gameplay rules in the end and some of their games play fantastic while some seem more like "cookie cutter" games

that's my opinion


and I'm riding to the bank with it

(I threw that last comment in for no reason)

[PROMETHEUS]

Vorpaledge makes a good point. I dislike Psikyo's formula, so their using said formula over and over makes me think the entire company sucks.

what he said

[MikeB]

I don't want to hear a bad word against Dragon Blaze.

Or Space Bomber.

Unless you want a slap..

[D]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Alot of companies tried to come up with 'gimmicks' that really screwed up their games. Usualy that new gimmick became the new game. It was not about a shooting stuff anymore it all become that new gimmick.
Ikaruga comes to mind.
Sometimes a company would throw too much stuff in there. Skull Fang comes to mind. I still don't know what everything is/does. Basically, I hate to have to admit that in 99% of the cases I don't like shmups with gimmicks.
A shmups should have power ups, smart bombs and bosses. If those are not in there it is not a shmup.
No selectable weapons (Battle Garegga's selectable formation type being the absolute maximum of user definable settings) No speed power ups, no selectable speed.
The reason why so many people consider Psiky shmups so similar is because they always used the same power up icons. For the rest, every shmup is the same. You blow stuff up. Only the artwork ever changes. And so it should be. All racing games are the same, you just drive and drive, they're all the same

[MikeB]

'Different' Psikyo Shmups..

Sol Divide
Zero Gunner
Cannon Spike

[JoshF]

With that kind of rigidness I'd think you loved DoDonpachi D.

Psikyo shmups so similar is because they always used the same power up icons

That's part of it's. Player mechanics and bullet patterns certainly play their part in people's opinions. I don't think most people here think Psikyo games FSUCK, at this point it's probably hyperbole to piss off the fans. They're not Planet Joker, but one little thing could've made them tons better, and Psikyo realized this towards the end of their life.

[louisg]

You are definitely right about that. The difference is Psikyo games with medal gathering are not all about that, they are little additions, something to do while tackling the focus of the game. Dodging bullets. Dodging bullets is something to do between chaining in those two Treasure games.

That's true; most Psikyo games are survival games. I find the chaining in Ikaruga to be very satisfying though.

Who's to say it's "right"? I'm not won over. Maybe if they made five more chaining games it wouldn't look so right? What are spam patterns?

Well, I thought it was right. Now we're getting into subjective arguments. Also, they *didn't* make five more chaining games (and I don't think they should).

Under Defeat is similar to a Psikyo game though, which is pretty funny since they are so original and Psikyo is boring old Psikyo. They copy their simplest game and somehow make it worse.

Which game did they copy? I don't see much of a resemblance aside from the fire-and-forget charge weapon mechanics. The thing that makes Under Defeat good is that it took many different influences -- not just one -- and combined them into a new game.

Border Down seemed a heck of a lot like G-Darius to me. That is the thing about these new small developers.

It's more like Metal Black, really. It's even different enough from that, though.

They're competing directly with developers that have been refining their one key idea for quite a while. They might have their own formula that they would like to refine, but their initial attempts meet with indifference and then we get filler junk games like Trigger Heart Exelica and Under Defeat.

Please explain what you mean by filler. And I think Psikyo's traditional games could use more refinement, personally. The spam patterns I mentioned before are semi-random patterns which are extremely fast that the player has little to no chance of dodging if they didn't know they were coming, kind of like the ones in the Raiden Fighters series. Not that I think bullet patterns should be slow at all.

What I think is interesting is that you only see this argument of refinement applied to shooter companies-- when anyone else does it (e.g. Burnout), it's considered to be just exploiting a successful formula.

What were the notable Taito games of the last 15 years? More Darius, and the Ray series. Two ideas, one from the 80s. Were these even developed by the same teams? Big developers can have multiple things going like that.

This is true. But a small developer can always do different ideas in series, even if they can't pull it off in parallel!

[Pirate1019]

Psikyo caused 9/11, that's all were saying.

I'm not gonna deny that.

[evil_ash_xero]

Psikyo caused 9/11, that's all were saying.

I knew it!

[Rob]

Which game did they copy? I don't see much of a resemblance aside from the fire-and-forget charge weapon mechanics. The thing that makes Under Defeat good is that it took many different influences -- not just one -- and combined them into a new game.

Those other rotating helicopter shooters I've been mentioning, Zero Gunner 1+2. The rotation gimmick is similar, the charge weapons are similar, the bullet patterns are similar, etc. The game is clearly indebted to those games, unless you want to do how I do and call it Gyrodine 3D. There's not a whole lot of content in Under Defeat to have been influenced by much of anything. Zero Gunner about covers it, which leads to...

Please explain what you mean by filler.

A relatively easy game to develop that feels half finished.

What I think is interesting is that you only see this argument of refinement applied to shooter companies-- when anyone else does it (e.g. Burnout), it's considered to be just exploiting a successful formula.!

You won't see me complaining about the amount or similarity of (Road Rash or) Burnout games. Successful formulas should be refined. The last console Burnout was a glitchy cash in though, wasn't it? No game in Psikyo's vertical line can be criticized for being exactly like the previous one with flaws from rushing it out of the door.

[Turrican]

Well... Does it really matter anymore? We don't have Psikyo around, we have Xnauts now, right? And I've heard Sengoku Cannon really stinks.

[Rob]

Well... Does it really matter anymore?

Their games still exist luckily.

Xnauts should illustrate clearly what was good about Psikyo's best games.

[Icarus]

Xnauts should illustrate clearly what was good about Psikyo's best games.

They did.
The answer was nothing.

[Rob]

Still bitter from getting stomped in Psikyo week.

[louisg]

Those other rotating helicopter shooters I've been mentioning, Zero Gunner 1+2. The rotation gimmick is similar, the charge weapons are similar, the bullet patterns are similar, etc.

So that would mean Zero Gunner is a ripoff of Gyrodine! I also don't think the bullet patterns are similar aside from some of the bursts, or I wouldn't be playing it. The large round shot graphics are, I'll admit that.

And how is it a worse version of ZG2? Let's assume for the sake of argument that the sole influence is Zero Gunner 2. It took out the cheap insta-lasers like the spider midboss, and it fixed the problem with enemies not reacting whatsoever to your positioning (so that you can sit behind enemies and fire away).

There's not a whole lot of content in Under Defeat to have been influenced by much of anything.

Did we forget Toaplan? And parts are reminiscent of the Ray games-- like how the player craft must be positioned to take out both air and ground while accounting for depth, and the entire layout of stage 4. Some of the bits feel like the Raidens to me (stage 2). And then the game throws in some freshness with the bosses which can be rotated by shooting them, and various other goodies.

A relatively easy game to develop that feels half finished.

I'm a programmer and I don't see what would be easy about developing Under Defeat, honestly. That claim could hold water with some of the other Naomi shmups, but not this one. I don't see what is half finished about it, either, other than that I wish it had a 6th level.

You won't see me complaining about the amount or similarity of (Road Rash or) Burnout games. Successful formulas should be refined. The last console Burnout was a glitchy cash in though, wasn't it? No game in Psikyo's vertical line can be criticized for being exactly like the previous one with flaws from rushing it out of the door.

Fair enough. I recognized earlier that Psikyo never really ruining their series' like other developers have.

Whether people like Psikyo is not the point. The point is that their traditional games, of which they have made several, are all extremely similar to each other, more so than most other dev's. You can't take games from other developers which are distinct (or devs which have only made two similar games), point to a couple similarities, and say they are doing the same thing-- it is a matter of degree. I'm sure if you like their games that this is a great thing.

[Icarus]

Still bitter from getting stomped in Psikyo week.

Like the Murphy's, I'm not bitter.

[Rob]

So that would mean Zero Gunner is a ripoff of Gyrodine! I also don't think the bullet patterns are similar aside from some of the bursts, or I wouldn't be playing it. The large round shot graphics are, I'll admit that.

It means Under Defeat's rotation is closer to Gyrodine if you want to get technical. The cool thing about Zero Gunner is being able to move around in a full circle. While Under Defeat will have a boss directly behind you and you'll only be able to shoot 45° (maybe less?) left or right. Poor.

I'm a programmer and I don't see what would be easy about developing Under Defeat, honestly.

For experienced full-time (assuming here) video game programmers. Responsible for developing Border Down. This is why I said relatively. Border Down took years to develop (iirc). G.Rev released it in 2003, they were working on Gradius V (2004), Under Defeat was released in October 2005 while I figure they were working on Senko no Ronde at the same time. Not exactly the same labored project as BD.

[Turrican]

Wait, G.Rev was involved with Gradius V?

[Rob]

wikipedia says: "# Gradius V — (2004), (PlayStation 2) - Programming and background graphic design."

Looks pretty similar to Border Down at points.

[Turrican]

So they assisted Treasure in making it, huh? Interesting, thanks for the info.

[Ayanami]

I don't think most people here think Psikyo games FSUCK, at this point it's probably hyperbole to piss off the fans. They're not Planet Joker,

I hear ya on that. I hate how people give Psykio such a hard time though, just because the scoring systems are not taken to extreme measures like Cave games and what not.

[Rob]

So they assisted Treasure in making it, huh? Interesting, thanks for the info.

Ever since Silpheed they need G.Rev by their side when developing shooters to make sure it doesn't turn into complete crap.

[EOJ]

Ever since Silpheed they need G.Rev by their side when developing shooters to make sure it doesn't turn into complete crap.

Um, no. Treasure has a shooting team that makes the games. They outsource some of the background graphic work and other bits and bobs to Grev, that's it (they did this with Ikaruga and Gradius V). Grev doesn't have anything to do with the gameplay, that's all Treasure.

[Turrican]

I think Rob was being sarcastic, TWE.