So why exactly does Cave not want to port anymore?

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:54 pm

The thing is, TWE, that not everyone considers Mushi to be a pinnacle of shooting excellence. Myself included. At some point recently in my gaming history, I started to really dislike the stage-long "contact/hit chaining" type of shooting games pioneered by the 'Pachi series, Mushi etc, and prefer shorter burst-type chaining similar to Ketsui and Espgaluda, and even item scoring like Progear.

The thing I see that puts a lot of people off Mushi is the fact that for score-based players to do well, you need command of the many different autofire buttons and a setup capable of emulating a recommended configuration. Because lets face it, while the game can be fun to play without giving a damn about scoring, having to set up a controller with six active buttons and then trying to get them to optimal settings is far too anally-retentive and takes the fun out of the game, even for a normally anal-retentive Raizing-style rank-system-calculator-on-legs like me.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:55 pm

Necronom wrote:
that pretty much leaves us with moss and milestone, both of whom don't really sell through fetishism
What's wrong with G.rev? Not only are their games technical masterpieces, they also care about originality and diversity. Imo, Cave is just trying to hide their stagnancy with freaky artworks. Reading posts in forums like these makes one believe that by not porting Cave misses out on a good opportunity to make some serious extra cash but the reality is quite different. They're smart businessmen so they know that JP arcades are the main show for their rather small fanbase and not the "console jungle".
They revolutionised shmups with Guwange and the Dodonpachi series and now everything they do is cashing in by perfecting this formula. Nothing wrong with that but hardly the high art of shmup developing...

forgot about g-rev! liked border down and senko, under defeat not so much

i just hope their next game is as technical as the former two

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:08 pm

Icarus wrote: The thing I see that puts a lot of people off Mushi is the fact that for score-based players to do well, you need command of the many different autofire buttons and a setup capable of emulating a recommended configuration.

Sorry, that's pretty far from the truth. Do you guys really not know that the game can be played seriously for score WITHOUT autofire (and actually that's what the developers intended), and it's actually quite doable and a lot of fun? As I said, the vast majority of people do NOT use autofire. I don't have a problem with people disliking the game, but it seems most people who do are relying on a lot of misinformation.

And lets not forget Mushi has Original mode, in which autofire helps you little, and it plays very differently from Maniac mode. I always wonder why people immediately associate Mushi with Maniac mode, ignoring Original and Ultra modes.

Necronom wrote: They revolutionised shmups with Guwange and the Dodonpachi series and now everything they do is cashing in by perfecting this formula. Nothing wrong with that but hardly the high art of shmup developing...

Have you played any of their last 6-7 games? They have little in common with Guwange or Dodonpachi.

I agree Grev is one of the few really good, promising shmup companies out there today. Certainly light-years ahead of Moss or Milestone.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:21 pm

TWE wrote:
Icarus wrote: The thing I see that puts a lot of people off Mushi is the fact that for score-based players to do well, you need command of the many different autofire buttons and a setup capable of emulating a recommended configuration.
Sorry, that's pretty far from the truth. Do you guys really not know that the game can be played seriously for score WITHOUT autofire (and actually that's what the developers intended), and it's actually quite doable and a lot of fun? As I said, the vast majority of people do NOT use autofire. I don't have a problem with people disliking the game, but it seems most people who do are relying on a lot of misinformation.

And lets not forget Mushi has Original mode, in which autofire helps you little, and it plays very differently from Maniac mode. I always wonder why people immediately associate Mushi with Maniac mode, ignoring Original and Ultra modes.

original mode is pedestrian, ultra mode way out of my skill range (also employs the same horrible system of maniac) and it's still annoying to have to pres butan at different rates and i'm prone to carpel tunnel sooooo

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:23 pm

TWE wrote:Sorry, that's pretty far from the truth. Do you guys really not know that the game can be played seriously for score WITHOUT autofire (and actually that's what the developers intended), and it's actually quite doable and a lot of fun? As I said, the vast majority of people do NOT use autofire. I don't have a problem with people disliking the game, but it seems most people who do are relying on a lot of misinformation.

Even still, having to deal with the recommended way to play the game vis-a-vis "use A here, change to C+ here, tap A here" is a major irk in an otherwise decent game. For me, it takes the creativity out of making a stage route, and changes it into finding a perfect route for your buttons to work. Yawn. At least games like Dodonpachi Daioujou and even Guwange gave you some degree of freedom in creating the optimal scoring route.

And people associate Mushi with Maniac because that's the traditional style of Cave game. I personally can't stand any of the modes - Original is a poor attempt at Feveron-speed gameplay without taking what made Feveron such a joy to play originally (the item chase); Maniac took the beautiful and complex bullet patterns from all the previous Cave games and threw them out, replacing them with straight walls of bullets and cloudspam; while you really have to be in the right mind to play Ultra, and I can't find continual trial-and-error safespot hunting any fun.

As Mr. Horse in Ren and Stimpy used to say: "No Sir, I don't like it."

I can agree with Mushi Futari being good, however. The game modes look well-balanced, and item-based scoring agrees with me more than hit chaining.

If only they had made Futari first.

And before you complain that I'm trolling (which is probably inevitable since I'm saying I actually dislike a Cave game), be mindful of the fact that this is just my opinion.
I can see the response though. "You don't understand the game, so you suck."

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:36 pm

Icarus wrote:
Even still, having to deal with the recommended way to play the game vis-a-vis "use A here, change to C+ here, tap A here" is a major irk in an otherwise decent game. For me, it takes the creativity out of making a stage route, and changes it into finding a perfect route for your buttons to work. Yawn. At least games like Dodonpachi Daioujou and even Guwange gave you some degree of freedom in creating the optimal scoring route.

Well, it seems you and Twiddle really don't care for the button tapping, and that's fine. That's a legitimate reason for disliking the game.

I find your last comment confusing, as scoring routes in Mushi are much more free and loose than DDP DOJ or Guwange, and that's one reason why I love the game so much. I mean, there's a bunch of ways to chain any of the stages in Mushi, with similar results, and if you miss an enemy or two it doesn't ruin your multiplier, unlike DDP DOJ. Even if your multiplier drops to zero with a death, it's not too hard to jump right back in. You can't do that in DDP DOJ or Guwange.

I've never felt Mushi was about memorizing button taps. At its core, it's a chaining game, so finding a good chaining route through the stages is primary. You can get by with a nice score (300+ Million) by only using the button taps on the midbosses, by the way. Provided you have a decent chaining route.

The thing is, once you get used to the button tapping, it becomes intuitive. You don't have to memorize anything, you just "feel" when to tap A or C (and how fast to tap them), it just becomes a natural extension of the gameplay. That's one reason why the game is so brilliant, IMO, and so innovative as well. There's nothing else like it.

TIP: using the button taps on the midbosses isn't very hard. Tap A slowly for the first phase or two then slam on C for a few seconds. Not too complicated.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:57 pm

TWE wrote:I find your last comment confusing, as scoring routes in Mushi are much more free and loose than DDP DOJ or Guwange, and that's one reason why I love the game so much. I mean, there's a bunch of ways to chain any of the stages in Mushi, with similar results, and if you miss an enemy or two it doesn't ruin your multiplier, unlike DDP DOJ. Even if your multiplier drops to zero with a death, it's not too hard to jump right back in. You can't do that in DDP DOJ or Guwange.

In Mushi there is only one optimal route for scoring. Take stage1 for example: the primary technique here is to attack certain targets while they are just coming into the screen from the top, as they are affected by a momentary invincibility that appears in a lot of Cave chaining-based games. In stage2, attacking particular trees and the midboss for the child-parent chain counter boosting is the key. In stage3 you leave particular enemy generators alive to keep your chain going. And so on.

Unlike Guwange, where it is entirely possible to miss particular scoring targets and still keep your scoring chain going, or Dodonpachi Daioujou where you can chain in a multitude of ways and still come out with a stage-long chain, scoring in Mushi is highly dependent on these particular targets, and if you fail to approach particular targets in the right manner, and occasionally with the right button press/tapping rate/autofire setup then you potentially stand to kill off what would be a good run.

Also, death isn't as big a factor in Daioujou or Guwange as you make out. In Dodonpachi it is, as the Max Multiplier is a big factor to scoring, but in Daioujou it isn't even prominent, and you can still score well given you use Hypers smartly and take all the bees. In Guwange hits only knock off 200 coins, a full bar taken off is a hit to score, but not as big as most players make out, and a good score can still be obtained with the remainder of the coin chain.

TWE wrote:I've never felt Mushi was about memorizing button taps. At its core, it's a chaining game, so finding a good chaining route through the stages is primary. You can get by with a nice score (300+ Million) by only using the button taps on the midbosses, by the way. Provided you have a decent chaining route.

Well you like the game, so you wouldn't notice it. After watching the guys play Mushi at London Meet in February, nothing really sticks out more than the mechanical method of LUN's play in Ultra and Plasmo's play in Maniac, moving in a very strict route, attack particular enemies at certain times and pressing certain buttons at set times, often with a set rhythm.

That, along with just the base gameplay system of stage-long hit chaining, put me off DDP, Daioujou and Mushi. I can see the allure in it, but when it comes to hit chaining, I prefer Ketsui and Donpachi. Shorter and way more free-form.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:06 pm

Icarus wrote;

That, along with just the base gameplay system of stage-long hit chaining, put me off DDP, Daioujou and Mushi. I can see the allure in it, but when it comes to hit chaining, I prefer Ketsui and Donpachi. Shorter and way more free-form.

Sounds like you're becoming me.
Joking.

For me, its just the fragility of the chains that annoys me. The adhesion to strict pathways and timings becomes that little bit too anal.
Mush has this, but its a little bit more forgiving than the Dodons, unless you're playing for the billion score that is.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:15 pm

Icarus wrote:
In Mushi there is only one optimal route for scoring.

Haha, no. Have you actually played the game?? You really don't know much about Mushi if you think there is only one scoring route through each level. I've seen tons of players, and there are lots of variations on the level chaining (I think I've seen about 10 different ways to do stage 2, which are similarly optimal). Especially level 3, you can chain that with formation or laser options, and each one opens up totally different routes (and endless variations therein).

You can dislike the game all you want, but please stop perpetuating the myths.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:30 pm

10 unique x, y positions at a certain point in replays don't really count as variations.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:32 pm

TWE wrote:Haha, no. Have you actually played the game?? You really don't know much about Mushi if you think there is only one scoring route through each level. I've seen tons of players, and there are lots of variations on the level chaining (I think I've seen about 10 different ways to do stage 2, which are similarly optimal). Especially level 3, you can chain that with formation or laser options, and each one opens up totally different routes (and endless variations therein).

Haha, yes. Know your strategy. What is optimal for one person might or will not work for another, simply because people have different levels of comfort with aggressive play, timing, reactions and so on. Just talking to people on this forum regarding technique on any game should make that painfully clear to you.

Just like you have seen with various Mushi players, I have seen about fifteen variations of chaining in Guwange, Dodonpachi etc, and just as similarly, they are all working variations of one predefined optimal route, which takes into account player skill and style. Just because one player heads left and another heads right doesn't mean they aren't going to be going for the same target in the eventuality.

Just thinking back to my experiments with Hyperless play in Dodonpachi Daioujou brings it all back. While there are so many ways to handle that particular game with regards to chaining - you can choose to use Shot or Laser at any point, or drop a Hyper - at some point in each stage you must attack in a certain way or you lose your chain. For example, the last large tank in stage1, chain linking to the st2 midboss and so on. My screwing about with Mushi reminds me that the game plays in a similar vein, in that attacking particular points in a certain manner is key to scoring. Surely, as someone who plays Mushi seriously, you would notice this by now?

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:32 pm

Twiddle wrote:10 unique x, y positions at a certain point in replays don't really count as variations.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about totally different stage patterns, with chaining different enemies in different orders, etc.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:33 pm

lol mushi is the worst game

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:40 pm

Icarus wrote: Just like you have seen with various Mushi players, I have seen about fifteen variations of chaining in Guwange, Dodonpachi etc, and just as similarly, they are all working variations of one predefined optimal route, which takes into account player skill and style. Just because one player heads left and another heads right doesn't mean they aren't going to be going for the same target in the eventuality.

Again, you show you don't know what you're talking about in regards to Mushi. There is no predefined optimal route. You can take all sorts of routes through the levels with similar gains. I actually find Mushi even more free in this regard than its sequel, Mushi Futari (which is a non-chaining game).

I guess if you haven't played the game much this could be hard for you to grasp.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:42 pm

"No! You're wrong! You just need to play the game 50 hours more despite alienating you within the first ten!"

I remember the last time I followed this advice, and it wasn't pretty.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:43 pm

Perhaps it's time to change the subject...

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:58 pm

TWE wrote:Again, you show you don't know what you're talking about in regards to Mushi. There is no predefined optimal route. You can take all sorts of routes through the levels with similar gains. I actually find Mushi even more free in this regard than its sequel, Mushi Futari (which is a non-chaining game).

I guess if you haven't played the game much this could be hard for you to grasp.

First, read edit, last paragraph.

Second, this shows me just how much you know about scoring strategy. If you are looking to score the absolute highest you can score, then you will need to find and follow the best line through the stages. Ten variations on stage 2 might seem like "free-form" and "optimal" to you, but just how close to the perfect line is it? Is it "optimal" to your particular line of strategy? Or do you think there is a much better way of doing it?

Because let's face it, the higher the score you want to achieve, the more mechanical you have to play in order to achieve it. The more rigid a path you have to follow to do it. Same deal applies to any game, even the free-flowing scoring games like Batrider and Garegga that I swear by, and even games like Ketsui where chaining appears relatively free.

Take it like F1 or rally racing: you can drive around the track like normal and do well, but for those wanting to be in pole position, you have to follow the perfect driving line, and only a handful of people can do that. For the rest of us, we can hope to find a near-perfect line suited to our skills, and that's where the variation comes from. Some games display more variation than others.

Finally, I used to think like you with regards to Raizing-style games. I remember when people used to complain about the persistent suiciding in Garegga, or low bullet visibility in Ibara. My first answer would always be "go play the game more!". But do you really think it's a good idea to force someone to play the game more if it already alienates them from day one? I could give Mushi all the time in the world, and I'd still view it in the same way as I do right now.

We can agree to disagree. Lets leave it at that.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:03 pm

Icarus wrote: If you are looking to score the absolute highest you can score, then you will need to find and follow the best line through the stages.

How do you define the "best line" unless you have a reference point? And isn't that just a euphemism for painstakingly copying the DVD replay of some Japanese WR holder?

The "best line" is a myth in Mushi. When more than one line can achieve the same "optimal" result, then by definition no "best line" or "predefined optimal route" exists. Plain and simple.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:07 pm

I actually agree with Icarus on this one, and as a cave fanboy it pains me to admit it. Mushi is the first cave game i don't like at all, for all the reasons he listed plus a few more. i Really tried to get into it and learn the chains and the taps and skyrockets and shit, but stopped when i realised i wasn't having any fun.
I did wet my pants when i saw that one futari video though, but who knows.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:12 pm

The vagrant wrote:I actually agree with Icarus on this one, and as a cave fanboy it pains me to admit it. Mushi is the first cave game i don't like at all, for all the reasons he listed plus a few more. i Really tried to get into it and learn the chains and the taps and skyrockets and shit, but stopped when i realised i wasn't having any fun.

Point taken, if you're not having any fun, don't play the game.
I wonder how widespread this was in Japan, as I doubt Cave would have completely changed Maniac mode in futari unless people complained about the original game. It's the first time a Cave sequel has ever used a completely different scoring system.

I did wet my pants when i saw that one futari video though, but who knows.

Which one? Manic in Futari is more Galuda and Ibara BL-esque, but overall at the moment I find it slightly less interesting than the first game (though I've flip-flopped on this many times). When going for a good score, after awhile it feels very rigid, and I prefer games that give you more freedom.

On a related note, Galuda 2 is perhaps the best game out there in terms of scoring freedom and variations. That's why it's a lot of fun.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:23 pm

TWE wrote:How do you define the "best line" unless you have a reference point? And isn't that just a euphemism for painstakingly copying the DVD replay of some Japanese WR holder?

The "best line" is a myth in Mushi. When more than one line can achieve the same "optimal" result, then by definition no "best line" or "predefined optimal route" exists. Plain and simple.

Well think of arcade culture in Japan, and the groups of players working together to push each other's scores via strategy discussion and so forth. Don't you think it's entirely possible that players would be noting down which variations of section routes would score higher than others, and then put it together into one working stage route? Because that is an entirely feasible way of working out scoring routes.

And then think to us here, putting down scoring tips and strategy discussion, trying to build good stage routes for scoring. Our process is slower, but not completely different.

Don't assume that I'm referring to the replays that we have available, because I'm not. At least, not entirely.

As for following the optimal line as displayed in a DVD, I think back to RF2 and MMM's record Espgaluda scores and the replays available, and note how very close to the DVD replay they are (with certain timing differences and minor route alterations). And I also wonder how close to the DVD Neverland's route was for Mushi Original. I don't point fingers or belittle their achievements because they are great achievements, but you do wonder how close players stick to the master replays when devising their stage routes.

And as I said a while ago in a replay discussion: whatever works.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:41 pm

Icarus wrote:but you do wonder how close players stick to the master replays when devising their stage routes.

This is the kind of snooty thing I would say.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:42 pm

Jeez, I can't really wrap my mind around this discussion, because like a lot of people I dream of a mere 1CC and work at it a little at a time. You guys are talking about changing your patterns here or there to get a little closer to the world record. That kind of dedication just blows my mind.