So why exactly does Cave not want to port anymore?

[auryn]

you guys are not a very friendly or welcoming bunch eh? I write that I don't have the money to buy a pcb (even if I did I think it's a mighty steep asking price for a video game) your answer: buy the pcb anyway, noob fanboy.

with all that latent negativity floating around here, I wouldn't be surprised if Cave went belly-up purely from all the bad karma you peeps are transmitting here. sheesh.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

you guys are not a very friendly or welcoming bunch eh? I write that I don't have the money to buy a pcb (even if I did I think it's a mighty steep asking price for a video game) your answer: buy the pcb anyway, noob fanboy.

with all that latent negativity floating around here, I wouldn't be surprised if Cave went belly-up purely from all the bad karma you peeps are transmitting here. sheesh.

For auryn,

And the fact that all Cave PCBs (with the exception of Uo Poko PCB) are still fetching some serious $$$ on the secondary arcade PCB collector's market today...prices have soared to new heights, especially for a barebones Ketsui PCB.

Cave going belly up from bad karma? Nah, that wouldn't happen in our lifetime..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Ceph]

There's no negativity, people are just being realistic.

Never say never though, the crazy number of sold Wiis may eventually turn out to be a good thing for us 2D arcade-game fanatics.

[auryn]

you know that weird thing that when you're doing quite well in a shmup and the minute you acknowledge this (to yourself or another) you die? I call it "ze curse"...

Cave going belly up from bad karma? Nah, that wouldn't happen in our lifetime..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

you're invoking it now!

[Icarus]

you guys are not a very friendly or welcoming bunch eh? I write that I don't have the money to buy a pcb (even if I did I think it's a mighty steep asking price for a video game) your answer: buy the pcb anyway, noob fanboy.

with all that latent negativity floating around here, I wouldn't be surprised if Cave went belly-up purely from all the bad karma you peeps are transmitting here. sheesh.

Cave might be aware of the Western shooting game market, and might be aware that there are lots of home console owners willing to snap up ports of their games, but that does not mean that they have an obligation to port for us. Money makes the world go round, and there is no money to be made in home ports of a niche genre. You could say that their home ports all sold out (and they did) but that really isn't difficult considering their print runs were so low that the demand far exceeded the supply.

Also consider that porting to foreign architecture (PC, console, whatever) takes more time and effort than Cave are willing to invest. The best ports we've seen have all been third parties doing the job - Arika and SPS - and we have to suffer the fact that aside from Arika, there are no third parties willing to port over Cave's property.

Not to mention that the PS2 is either dead or almost dead in the console market, is incapable of handing some of Cave's more advanced routines, and the current-gen trio of PS3, X360 and Wii all prefer games that push their graphical and technological limits, and the likelihood of anything Cave coming on them is slim to none. (And no, I don't think X-Live and the Wii VC count, as again, they probably don't provide any kind of money to Cave's business.)

Now, knowing that, if you truly, deeply want to play their latest stuff, your only choice is to jump into the new and second-hand PCB market and try to acquire their unported stuff. Guwange and Feveron go for about $280. Ketsui about $650 for a bare PCB. Espgaluda 2 is around $400 for a second-hand kit. If you have a decent job, that is a week's wages for a lifetime's worth of entertainment.

There is no elitism or negativity in this viewpoint. It is the harsh truth that Cave players have had to deal with for quite a long time.

tl:dr
Get a job. Buy a supergun. Sorted.

[Dave_K.]

you guys are not a very friendly or welcoming bunch eh? I write that I don't have the money to buy a pcb (even if I did I think it's a mighty steep asking price for a video game) your answer: buy the pcb anyway, noob fanboy.

with all that latent negativity floating around here, I wouldn't be surprised if Cave went belly-up purely from all the bad karma you peeps are transmitting here. sheesh.

Here's a paradigm shift for you... Rather than hating the community for your selfish porting needs, why not embrace the community by finding others local to your area who would also like to kick in $80 to $100 on a Cave pcb and buy one together! When there is a will, theres a way.

[sven666]

well.. there has never been a western released cave shmup anyways?

and Atlus own the rights to all the older shmups dont they, so forget about them before you go insane, play em in mame if youre desparate.

im sure Cave have to strike somesort of deal with AMI too before they can even start thinking about a console port?, and then we have the whole third party thing icarus has described so well..

PS3and XBOX360 falls out because there is just no way you can have a lowres TATE oriented game on a highres widescreen, just forget it.

the wii is the only realistic choice in terms of hardware really but then you have to deal with nintendo and their complete lack of interest in anything even remoteley "underground" or niche.

no.. only way we will see cave games on a console in the future is if they decide to improve their hardware to high-res or if they decide to develope a concole-exclusive (proboably the most likeley).

[Ganelon]

Alright, let me be Captain Obvious and note that the folks who are more pessimistic have reason to be pessimistic since they've banked on there not being ports by buying the comparatively expensive PCBs. By spreading pessimism, the possibility increases that their investment goes up (after some console gamers subscribe to the same pessimism) or at least holds value. On the other hand, folks who are more optimistic have reason to be optimistic since they've banked on there being ports and, rather than ponying up the cash on expensive PCBs, are hoping to capitalize on playing the games through cheap ports. By spreading optimism, they hope that along some road, a publisher will take notice and finally release a port.

So you have almost nobody with the games who would want ports and almost nobody without the games who wouldn't want ports. So really, arguing about the possibility here is silly and sure to cause conflicts. It's only worth noting that Cave really has no financial interest in ports, Arika will only release the best it can and is still on a shaky relationship, Taito has been driven away from shooter ports by its parent SE, and it's certainly possible yet financially unsound that any other publisher may step up onto the plate.

If you feel strongly on one side, what does it matter what anybody else here has to say? It's not going to increase/decrease your chances of getting a port whatsoever.

[EOJ]

Hmmm, I see some people arguing low sales here, but over at play asia, both Ibara and Mushi are sold out. Do we actually know how many were sold?

No, but the number must be extremely low. I just checked, and I was shocked to see neither Mushi nor Ibara made it into the top 50 sales ranking during their first week of sales. This is particularly shocking for Mushi, as it only needed to sell a mere 712 copies in its release week to be listed in the top chart. Sadly, it did not sell that many:

http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php?date=38557

For Ibara, the competition was stiffer, as it needed to sell at least 2,739 copies in its opening week to be listed:

http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php?date=38774

I think you can see the severity of the situation. I wouldn't be surprised if both Mushi and Ibara sold less than 5000 copies each. Maybe as low as 3000 copies total? In any case, after these horrible sales, it's no wonder the Cave ports stopped. NO ONE BOUGHT THEM.

[Ceph]

Well, Mushihime got a Taito Best reprint.

[freddiebamboo]

Owning a mame capable PC and a J-PS2 give you access to about 10 cave games - more than enough IMO to keep anyone busy for a long time.

Until we all become uber masters at what we have, do we really need more cave? Just be glad we have mame and ports in the first place.

[sven666]

Well, Mushihime got a Taito Best reprint.

Ibara didnt and its already become a rare and sought after game, that must be somekind of record, not even border down went up that fast!

[Ceph]

So far pretty much the same price development I'd say. Ibara was released more than a year ago. In the long run I don't think the PS2 port will become as valuable as or more so than Border Down for DC. Ibara PS2 is plagued by The Blur, and it's not such a great game to begin with.

[EOJ]

Well, Mushihime got a Taito Best reprint.

Yeah, but i don't think this has anything to do with how many copies the original print sold. At the time Taito was doing "best" reprints of pretty much everything they released. Similarly poor-selling games like Homura also got a best release. The fact Ibara's "best version" was cancelled seems to be indicative of how profitable these "best versions" of shmups were for Taito. They probably couldn't even get 50 pre-orders for it.

[MJR]

well.. there has never been a western released cave shmup anyways?

and Atlus own the rights to all the older shmups dont they, so forget about them before you go insane, play em in mame if youre desparate.

Only slightly off topic: On ECTS show 2002; I bumped into bunch of japanese business guys, who worked for atlus.
I immediately started praising Dodonpachi to them.
They looked confused, and started to babble: "Uh.. how did you get to play it?"
I said that my friend owns the PCB (I had no balls to say it was MAME)
Then I asked when we will see western releases for cave shooters.
Their answer was "We don't know."

This is a real story, btw

[EOJ]

So far pretty much the same price development I'd say.

No, not really. Border down could still be had complete for about $50 over 2 years after its release (I bought a complete, mint copy on ebay in December 2005 for $55 shipped). Ibara is only a little over a year old and the price has jumped to $70-$80. I agree it probably won't reach the heights of current Border Down prices though.

[Ceph]

well.. there has never been a western released cave shmup anyways?

and Atlus own the rights to all the older shmups dont they, so forget about them before you go insane, play em in mame if youre desparate.

Only slightly off topic: On ECTS show 2002; I bumped into bunch of japanese business guys, who worked for atlus.
I immediately started praising Dodonpachi to them.
They looked confused, and started to babble: "Uh.. how did you get to play it?"
I said that my friend owns the PCB (I had no balls to say it was MAME)
Then I asked when we will see western releases for cave shooters.
Their answer was "We don't know."

This is a real story, btw

Well, you could have said you played it on PS1 or Saturn

[Ceph]

So far pretty much the same price development I'd say.

No, not really. Border down could still be had complete for about $50 over 2 years after its release (I bought a complete, mint copy on ebay in December 2005 for $55 shipped). Ibara is only a little over a year old and the price has jumped to $70-$80. I agree it probably won't reach the heights of current Border Down prices though.

OIC. When I started looking for a copy in early 2006 the LE was alrerady at 70-80 EUR (95-110 USD). Anyway, the real jump came after Under Defeat.

[EOJ]

Well yeah, the LE was more expensive from the get-go. I was just talking about the regular release version of BD.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

well.. there has never been a western released cave shmup anyways?

and Atlus own the rights to all the older shmups dont they, so forget about them before you go insane, play em in mame if youre desparate.

Only slightly off topic: On ECTS show 2002; I bumped into bunch of japanese business guys, who worked for atlus.
I immediately started praising Dodonpachi to them.
They looked confused, and started to babble: "Uh.. how did you get to play it?"
I said that my friend owns the PCB (I had no balls to say it was MAME)
Then I asked when we will see western releases for cave shooters.
Their answer was "We don't know."

This is a real story, btw

For MJR,

By telling a 'little' white lie saying that a pal has the 'real-deal' Cave/Atlus DDP PCB (when in reality, the closest one's going get to playing the actual PCB {short of actually buying one} is on Mame/Raine emu) -- a bit stretching it, eh? Never mind... ^_~

It's a given fact that the hardest-of-hard-core shmuppers here on the board already own such a DDP PCB currently (or in the past) in their arcade PCB stash -- I wouldn't settle for anything less than that (with the exception of the rare Special Campaign DDP version PCB which is the one Cave PCB that's considered the 'holy grail' of shmup PCBs), would you? ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[CIT]

OIC. When I started looking for a copy in early 2006 the LE was alrerady at 70-80 EUR (95-110 USD). Anyway, the real jump came after Under Defeat.

What is the current going rate for a LE?

[EOJ]

The LE fluctuates all over the place. A sealed one just went for a BIN of $139 on ebay. But the usual price is $200+ as far as I can tell.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The LE fluctuates all over the place. A sealed one just went for a BIN of $139 on ebay. But the usual price is $200+ as far as I can tell.

And would that $200+ USD price range apply to either a 'new' or used Border Down LE set?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[EOJ]

I've seen mint used ones go for over $200 over the past few months.

[CIT]

Hmm, wow. Good thing I got it when I did, then. I know a sealed LE went on Yahoo for like $800 or so. GJP posted it somewhere.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I've seen mint used ones go for over $200 over the past few months.

Nice way to earn some free benjamins (assuming one bought it when it first came out at retail price) -- wasn't the Border Down LE set limited to just 3,000 pressed DC GD-Rom copies?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[EOJ]

yes, supposedly 3000 copies of the LE. And yes CIT, Border Down LEs have sold for ridiculous money in Japan recently, prices on par with newer Cave PCBs. I have no idea why.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

yes, supposedly 3000 copies of the LE. And yes CIT, Border Down LEs have sold for ridiculous money in Japan recently, prices on par with newer Cave PCBs. I have no idea why.

That's fucking insane -- for that much yen, I'd rather buy one of the newer Cave arcade PCBs instead..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Never_Scurred]

This is a very interesting post.
Personally, I couldn't give a shit about anymore Cave games as I already have plenty in MAME and ps2 to keep me busy for awhile. That, and I refuse to waste more than $70 on a game-even one I really would want to play. Its much better to simply tune out said game and think about something else. Like school.
I mean, think about it- how different are the new games from the ones we already own on ps2(or have in MAME)? If its just gonna be a different art style and same dodge-curtain-of-dots-for-max-score, then I don't really think we're missing much.

$600 for an import console and a long wait for a port that might never happen, or $600 on a supergun and $700-1200+ for Espgaluda 2, right now? Hmmm. I wonder.

Fixed for truth. I like how the pcb'ers try to deflate the costs. Lets be real here, not everyone understands the logic in wasting a paycheck on new art and bullet patterns.
Regardless, this sounds pretty much like a lose-lose situation either ways.

[Icarus]

$600 for an import console and a long wait for a port that might never happen, or $600 on a supergun and $700-1200+ for Espgaluda 2, right now? Hmmm. I wonder.

Fixed for truth. I like how the pcb'ers try to deflate the costs. Lets be real here, not everyone understands the logic in wasting a paycheck on new art and bullet patterns.
Regardless, this sounds pretty much like a lose-lose situation either ways.

Fixed? I was referring to a second-hand PCB kit, and it was reported here that there was one available for 50000Y/$400.
So yeah, $200 for a decent supergun, and $400 for Espgaluda 2 second-hand = $600.
You'd be right in fixing if I was referring to Mushi Futari, which I wasn't.