Shmupping with a Keyboard

[PROMETHEUS]

I started playing shmups on MAME with my keyboard, like most people I guess. As I got more into it, I never bothered to consider buying a stick (didn't even consider checking out if there was an online community or anything, for a long time), and I got better at playing with my keyboard.

I recently bought a Virtua Stick High Grade on PlayAsia as I thought I just had to buy one of those sticks that everyone plays on. After a couple of hours trying to play with it, I wasn't convinced at all that it was a better controller for shmupping than keyboards are. And I really play a lot worse with it.

So I'm thinking of getting rid of the stick idea and sticking to my keyboard (no pun intended lol --a). But I got some doubts about it and I'd like some input from all of you shmuppers :

Besides the somewhat better feeling of immersion, what do sticks have that keyboards don't ?
What precisely is supposed to make them more accurate and overall better for shmupping ?

[Icarus]

I recently bought a Virtua Stick High Grade on PlayAsia as I thought I just had to buy one of those sticks that everyone plays on. After a couple of hours trying to play with it, I wasn't convinced at all that it was a better controller for shmupping than keyboards are. And I really play a lot worse with it.

Try giving it more than just a couple of hours. -_-;;

I used to play with a keyb as well, long before decent controllers and convertors were available. After spending a few weeks with a decent controller, I noticed how much better I could control my ship/chara. One thumb for movement versus three fingers? No contest. Never looked back.

That and I no longer accidentally hit the Windows key mid-chain.

[PROMETHEUS]

I used to play with a keyb as well, long before decent controllers and convertors were available. After spending a few weeks with a decent controller, I noticed how much better I could control my ship/chara. One thumb for movement versus three fingers? No contest. Never looked back.

You mean you play with a D-Pad and think that using one thumb instead of three fingers is better ? Although I never tried to play with a D-pad, I'm convinced of the opposite... Being able to use all three fingers should allow much quicker direction changes and perhaps more accurate diagonals.

[Icarus]

You mean you play with a D-Pad and think that using one thumb instead of three fingers is better ? Although I never tried to play with a D-pad, I'm convinced of the opposite... Being able to use all three fingers should allow much quicker direction changes and perhaps more accurate diagonals.

Depends on what you're used to. I've been playing console and arcade stuff for decades and prefer the feel of a d-pad/stick over four keys. You need to give it time, to get used to the feel of the controller. No one can pick up a new control device and instantly maneuver like a god with it.

[Pirate1019]

I used to play with a keyb as well, long before decent controllers and convertors were available. After spending a few weeks with a decent controller, I noticed how much better I could control my ship/chara. One thumb for movement versus three fingers? No contest. Never looked back.

You mean you play with a D-Pad and think that using one thumb instead of three fingers is better ? Although I never tried to play with a D-pad, I'm convinced of the opposite... Being able to use all three fingers should allow much quicker direction changes and perhaps more accurate diagonals.

Well, my theory why you have a longer reaction time for a keyboard would be that you have to control 3 separate fingers instead of one finger (or an entire hand, for a stick). I started out playing Kenta Cho's stuff on a keyboard, but as soon as I discovered MAME I got a simple Logitech USB controller and the only time I don't use it is if it isn't supported by the program I'm playing. It's also less painful on the hands/wrists for me. Whenever I play on my friend's laptop or my keyboard, no matter how I position the keyboard, my hands, wrists, and sometimes even my right shoulder get cramped and uncomfortable.

[Twiddle]

ive been playing pc games for years so im a keyboard monkey

[kengou]

I play better on a keyboard than with any sort of controller. It just feels more accurate and responsive to me. On a controller, sometimes I try to move in a certain direction and apply too much pressure with my thumb and the ship moves too far or skews in a direction I didn't intend. On a keyboard, movement is clearly defined by what key you press. It's very precise.

[angrycoder]

1) using a joystick won't make you a better shmup player.

2) if you've been playing with a pad or a keyboard for any period of time, you initial reaction to a stick will pretty much be 'omfg this sucks!!!!!'. You need to use the stick for a while, usually at least a few weeks. Use it for every game you play, platformers, run and guns, fighters, shmups, whatever. If its a 2d game, use your stick. You need to retrain your brain to the motions of the stick rather than a gamepad or a keyboard. The same thing happens if you ever tried using a wacom tablet. People recommend ditching your mouse all together when you first get the tablet and just using the pen as your sole pointing device. You need to remap your brain.

3) One final thing that may help, keep the joystick below your elbows. If you are using the stick at your computer desk, I can almost guarantee that the height of the desk combined with base of the stick is placing it above your elbows. Go get one of those 10 dollar folding tv tables from walmart and put your stick on that in front of your desk. It will make a huge difference.

[worstplayer]

Main problem with keyboard is that it takes too long to switch from moving forward to moving backward (you can't put fingers on up and down at the same time unless you're using QAOP controls). It's problem especially in horis.

[DEL]

Having grown up with arcade sticks, due to my advanced years , I couldn't entertain anything less than a stick.

It does amaze me how people get good results with keyboards and even joypads, but I guess its just a case of getting used to one particular thing.

PROMETHEUS - stick with a stick for the next month at least . It'll be useful for London Meet V (arcade meet ).

[Super Laydock]

Also having started my gaming on a keyboard I do understand your sentiment. It´ll most likely feel more natural that way for you for a long time.
I had trouble adjusting to joysticks at first too and never could get really accustomed to them. Then later on I had the same thing with D-Pads.

Since most of my shmupping is on platforms without the keyboard option these days I´ll just have to bear with it though and don´t mind a much as I used to. In fact the only games were I REALLY miss the keyboard now are my horis, since they´re generally less frantic and the keyboard does allow (me) for more precise movement which these games often need.
Keyboards aren´t well advised for manic vertical shmups though, but I have only begun playing these in my post keyboard age anyway.

That and I no longer accidentally hit the Windows key mid-chain.

Yeah, that key is one of the most annoying inventions ever, and it still puzzles me why most programmers of game playing software don not disable the function of this button.

[Ceph]

Playing videogames with a keyboard is akin to driving a car with one hand tied to your back. Doable but not a whole lot of fun.


EDIT: typo

[PROMETHEUS]

Thx for the inputs guys. I think I'll go with DEL's option of sticking to the stick for a month or 2. I just read that the Playstation 3 allows playing with a keyboard and mouse, so in case I decide to permanently choose keyboards as a controller, I guess I can still play even mushihimesama, DOJ and galuda with those.

[Battlesmurf]

Well, nobody has mentioned it- so maybe you guys have figured something out I haven't- I have a nice keyboard and a great motherboard- but on Tumiki Fighters I can only press so many keys at once before they 'stick' (I play FEAR/FPS on a semi regular basis- and I dont see this kind of thing-)- it's just every once in awhile I find a game that does that. No stick I've ever used cancels out buttons and sticks like that

[CIT]

Well, PROMETHEUS got a ridiculously good Guwange score playing with a keyboard, so he must be doing something right.

Then again, maybe if he started using a stick he could even double that score!

[Frederik]

The same thing happens if you ever tried using a wacom tablet. People recommend ditching your mouse all together when you first get the tablet and just using the pen as your sole pointing device. You need to remap your brain.

Good point.

[Pirate1019]

And because somebody had to link it eventually...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... icks++pads

It's a mixed bag in there to be sure, but a few good points were made somewhere along the line. It mostly revolves around sticks and pads, but keyboards are mentioned a few times too.

[PROMETHEUS]

Well, nobody has mentioned it- so maybe you guys have figured something out I haven't- I have a nice keyboard and a great motherboard- but on Tumiki Fighters I can only press so many keys at once before they 'stick' (I play FEAR/FPS on a semi regular basis- and I dont see this kind of thing-)- it's just every once in awhile I find a game that does that. No stick I've ever used cancels out buttons and sticks like that :)

Yeah, this happens depending on which keys you are pressing at the same time and on which keyboard you're using. It never bothered me in shmups because there aren't that many keys being pressed at once, and whenever it happened to me I just translated my button map and then it worked fine.

Sticks and game pads don't have the same problem because they're not mapped the same way electronically. But it's not a problem with keyboards for shmups or FPS or RTS...

[Frederik]

It mostly revolves around sticks and pads, but keyboards are mentioned a few times too.

In the atmosphere later in that thread everyone was too scared to even mention the keyboard without irony.

[RotateMe]

BTW is this considered worth buying (maybe along with a PS2 to PC controller device)?

Another question: it has been mentioned that some keyboards miss keys when pressing too many at the same time. I noticed that this differs from keyboard to keyboard and now that I think of it, it never occured with my USB keyboard, might it be impossible for those?

[Frederik]

I have the Hori Fighting Stick 2, it misses clicking buttons, which can be irritating. I also have the feeling that sometimes you have to press those buttons pretty hard to make it register. I can´t compare it to other sticks, though, as i´ve never played with proper arcade machine sticks yet. Oh, and it has RUMBLE. First time playing Ikaruga I thought that the stick gave me eletric shocks or something.

[PROMETHEUS]

BTW is this considered worth buying (maybe along with a PS2 to PC controller device)?

Another question: it has been mentioned that some keyboards miss keys when pressing too many at the same time. I noticed that this differs from keyboard to keyboard and now that I think of it, it never occured with my USB keyboard, might it be impossible for those?

It's not related to USB, I got a USB SAITEK Eclipse keyboard and it does block keys this way too. It is due to the structure inside, as explained here.

[stuminator]

It's probably because console games are basically all I've played in the last 10 years, but I don't see how so many of you are comfortable using a keyboard for shmups. Seems like quick diagonal movements would be a nightmare to get used to.

[Pirate1019]

Seems like quick diagonal movements would be a nightmare to get used to.

It is.

[PROMETHEUS]

Seems like quick diagonal movements would be a nightmare to get used to.

It is...

... not ^^

[Pirate1019]

Says you!

[PROMETHEUS]

^-^ !!

[-Bridget-]

I used to play with a keyb as well, long before decent controllers and convertors were available. After spending a few weeks with a decent controller, I noticed how much better I could control my ship/chara. One thumb for movement versus three fingers? No contest. Never looked back.

You mean you play with a D-Pad and think that using one thumb instead of three fingers is better ? Although I never tried to play with a D-pad, I'm convinced of the opposite... Being able to use all three fingers should allow much quicker direction changes and perhaps more accurate diagonals.

This is something I hear about for fighting games as well, and Im gonna throw a similar arguement here as to what I throw at fighter "pros".....


I use a PS2 controller, basic 1st party one, for my PS2 shmups, and a 360 controller for my PC/MAME shmups and also for Senko no Ronde / Geometry Wars / other stuff on that system.


I'd been using a keyboard as well, for the longest time for those...... cause I didnt have the 360 controller to use.


It's simply logical, though, that the keyboard isnt really the best to use for this.


Think about it this way; In alot of shmups, particularly non-bullet-hell types, reaction speed is very important. You need to be able to switch directions and jump out of the way in a split second.

Now, think about it this way; certain keyboard movements are just going to be SLOWER than similar movements on a d-pad, or a stick.

Like, say Im moving my ship downward. So, my 3 fingers on the WASD side of the keyboard might be sitting over the ASD keys, with the S key being depressed for the movement.

But then, for whatever reason, I have to suddenly shoot upwards, or get blown up!


Well, this is where it gets harder; Switching directions there is gonna just be harder and slower on a keyboard. I have to release the S key, and move up to the W key and hit it all the way down, in order to switch directions. Not to mention the complications in motor movement, for more complicated direction switches...... It simply takes less time to shift your thumb to a different part of the D-pad then it does to switch keys. Oh yes, the difference isnt much..... But those tiny little differences in time can literally be the difference between a successful dodge, and flaming shrapnel.


And dont even get me started on trying to use keyboard for FIGHTING games...... that's a whole other rant.


I personally prefer an arcade stick for shmups (whereas I HATE it for fighting games.....), but regardless, the keyboard is just plain unnecessarily hard.


If the D-pad or stick is giving you more trouble for this genre, chances are it's just that you arent used to it.



Just play with it for awhile, give it some time....... you'll more than likely find it is indeed better.


Just dont expect it to come quickly/all at once, lol.

[PROMETHEUS]

I used to play with a keyb as well, long before decent controllers and convertors were available. After spending a few weeks with a decent controller, I noticed how much better I could control my ship/chara. One thumb for movement versus three fingers? No contest. Never looked back.

You mean you play with a D-Pad and think that using one thumb instead of three fingers is better ? Although I never tried to play with a D-pad, I'm convinced of the opposite... Being able to use all three fingers should allow much quicker direction changes and perhaps more accurate diagonals.

Like, say Im moving my ship downward. So, my 3 fingers on the WASD side of the keyboard might be sitting over the ASD keys, with the S key being depressed for the movement.

But then, for whatever reason, I have to suddenly shoot upwards, or get blown up!


Well, this is where it gets harder; Switching directions there is gonna just be harder and slower on a keyboard. I have to release the S key, and move up to the W key and hit it all the way down, in order to switch directions. Not to mention the complications in motor movement, for more complicated direction switches...... It simply takes less time to shift your thumb to a different part of the D-pad then it does to switch keys. Oh yes, the difference isnt much..... But those tiny little differences in time can literally be the difference between a successful dodge, and flaming shrapnel.

Doesn't make sense to me... Shifting your finger from W to S is definitely as fast as moving your thumb from one direction button to another, and you have to move your thumb every time you want to change directions on a D-pad, wheras you only have to move your middle finger when you want to switch between forward and back on the WASD setup...

As for fighting, as long as key masking doesn't happen, a keyboard is obviously fine and at least as good as a regular game pad since you can get easy access to 6 buttons with 3 fingers, or 8 buttons with 4 fingers, as opposed to 3 fingers with 2 of them controlling only 1 button, and the other one controlling 4 or 6 of them on the XBOX 360 controller.
I don't have a lot of experience with fighting on the 360 though so feel free to comment ^^; But I really don't see your point regarding shmups.

[kengou]

Moving from up to down or vice-versa is a millisecond or two longer than on a controller. And in fact, moving left and right quickly is actually faster on a keyboard because you already have a finger on each key at once. Try alternating between left and right really quickly on a keyboard. Now try it with your thumb on a stick/D-pad. the keyboard is significantly faster. Most shmups require more side-to-side movement than up-to-down, too (depending on how you play). Now, maybe some people don't have the coordination to deal with multiple fingers for movement... but if you do, then I really think a Keyboard is just as good (if not better in some cases) than a controller.