Replay Culture

[fullblownaidzz]

Personally, i like watching replays. It's the superplays that discourage me, because i know i'll never be able to get close to that unless i play just one game for years and years, and i don't want to do that. I watch replays sometimes at night before bed or something. Or i'll watch them of games that i'll never get to play anyways.

[iatneH]

I likes them.

I think they can (or at least tiny bits of them) can be extremely useful for demonstrating a complicated or deep scoring mechanic. I've read text descriptions in the Strategy section of a sequence of actions that must be performed, and not being able to make heads or tails of it, but seeing it in motion is a big revelation and suddenly I know exactly what the ST is saying.

However, there is definitely a greater feeling of satisfaction of figuring out actual stage paths and attacks using the mechanics learned from replays.

My personal achievement comes from Judgement Silversword. I played it a bit and it was not until I watched a little 2-minute clip on the developer's site that I discovered that the shield increased the multiplier. That was the only recorded footage I ever saw of the game until a TLB clip was posted a while ago, and with some work I managed to creep up and get the top spot on the forum's hiscore table. I was only there for a few weeks until another newcomer came and destroyed me, but he also described the same satisfying feeling of learning everything with no replays.

[shiftace]

I like replays... good ones, at least, where the player clearly understands the game and exploits it for all it's worth. Replays with ordinary skill just aren't much fun, I feel. I also tend to like TAS videos.

I remember when I first played Radio Zonde, I could barely pass the first stage and had no idea how the game worked. So I went looking for instructions on the web but only found a set of really great replays. Watched all of them once or twice, saw what's possible with all the different ships, then went off and picked the game apart on my own until I cleared it. Which took a while. Now, years later, I've watched a couple of those replays again, and now that I understand everything that's happening, they're ten times as awesome.

[Ayanami]

You should try games where scoring isn't entirely counter to your survival, like Batrider.

Word.

But moving on.
As far as replays go, I am for them. Fact of the matter is, most people are going to play a game their own way no matter how many superplays they see. There will always be a different approach to certain patterns and what not depending on the player.

Also, seeing patterns on a super play then trying to scan the screen properly and dodge them during actual play are so far apart to me that the arguement is void. No matter how many times I watch Icarus' Batrider video for tips on dealing with Grubby or Blunt's one tricky pattern I still get fucked up. I only just started to get the hang of Grubby's stuff, but that was from playing the game over and over again. Pretty much untill my mind figured out where the hell to go and how to do it.

I mean, when you watch Jordan school a bunch of people in b-ball, does that give you that much more of an edge in playing basket ball? No, because you have to play the game a ton, to understand how the hell to do that kind of stuff.

[Dave_K.]

I believe this is where the replay hate started...

Exhibit B
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=19

Twitchdoctor in his prime. A very funny read. There is even a Recap moment at the end.

[sven666]

for newer shmups there is so much more thats a factor than simple memorisation so i dont see why it would be cheating.

if you watch the Ketsui replay 10 times and then go play the game for the first time youll get annihilated in the 1st stage.

i for one love superplays and do collect them in their original format.
i watch them pretty much just for fun but occationally i snag a scoring technique from one, altho to be able to draw any use of superplays you already have to ba an acomplished player for that peticular game i think, and when youve gone that far the whole "i only play for fun" argument has already been thrown out anyways.. being good at a game isnt all about having fun, its about grinding it, the fun part is that once in every 20 runs when you break your HS... the rest kinda sucks.

[Ghegs]

^- what he said.

Lately I've been trying to get more into the replay-making business myself. I got few projects underway, and hopefully I'll get off my lazy ass and actually finish some of them. I don't want my only contribution be my Heavy Unit (PCE)-replay nobody's even watched.

[Herr Schatten]

I don't want my only contribution be my Heavy Unit (PCE)-replay nobody's even watched.

I did watch it.

[sven666]

since we have so many replaymakers on the site, why dont we make a shmups-DVD production?

if someone else handles the tech bits i could proboably fix the distribution and manufacturing bit?

i dont know about you guys but id certainly pay $20-30 for a high quality (albeit amateur made) DVD every once in a while with a couple of superplays on..?

[GaijinPunch]

Twitchdoctor in his prime. A very funny read. There is even a Recap moment at the end.

Sounds like he needs to get out more.

EDIT: That thread is classic. Recap won the fucking thread by a mile!!

[Ko.oS]

you know, many years ago i used to think manic shooters were lame("gah, this shit is impossible to dodge") -- that changed when i watched INO's 0-point gigawing2 vids, which teached me that its the player who controls the bullet patterns, not vice versa (be proactive, explore the enemy and find its weakness, blablabla). so, yea, life's too short to be stubborn, give replays a try...

that said, i know a few ppl who cleared difficult games like gunbird2 using replays as an assistance and in retrospect (after clearing other difficult games w/o help, resp. figuring out scoring nuances, etc) they have no problems admitting that the latter achievements were much more satisfying. and yea, i got the old gamespy thread about replays=cheating (rob vs everybody else )saved on my hd, but there's too many shitty analogies to martial arts, rpgs, tombraider and marathons (and a klax tangent) so i wont copy and paste it here. sorry for the shit writing style


___________________
"she was crazy and i was blind"

[LUNardei]

I think that the level of play here is increasing also because of the good quantity of replays that you can watch nowadays, from japan and from western players too!
Moreover, it should be a pleasure (it is, in my experience) to let the other players watch your work

[Icarus]

and yea, i got the old gamespy thread about replays=cheating (rob vs everybody else )saved on my hd, but there's too many shitty analogies to martial arts, rpgs, tombraider and marathons (and a klax tangent) so i wont copy and paste it here. sorry for the shit writing style

I remember that thread. That's what I was thinking of when I quoted in the initial post.
You need to upload that thread somewhere for great justice (or comedic value).

I think that the level of play here is increasing also because of the good quantity of replays that you can watch nowadays, from japan and from western players too!
Moreover, it should be a pleasure (it is, in my experience) to let the other players watch your work

That's my view too. I can understand the view that finding out things yourself is very satisfying - for me, finding out most of the scoring tricks in Batrider for example was very enjoyable - however in my view, we know far too little about a great deal of games, and for players who wish to play them to a certain level of skill, we have to use all the information available, and that includes replays.

I find it more satisfying to share the knowledge I have learned and see other players make use of that knowledge to improve, though.

I still never really understood why people were so adamant about pushing replay hate back then, and even now in some respects.

And it's far better watching other "normal" player replays to get better, than watching supers and trying to emulate them.

Which brings up a related question: where is the line drawn between classing a replay as a "normal player replay" and a "superplay"? Is it a certain amount of attained points? A certain level of skill in control and strategic knowledge? Both?

[Frederik]

Replays are no different than going to your arcade and watching people. Since the benchmark shooting community (The Japanese one -- people that hang out at Hey!, specifically) hone their skills this way, I don't see why a bunch of western gentlemen should get upset about it.

Fixed and quoted for extra emphasis. If you are trying to achieve scores to take part in worldwide score rankings, that is. There are other games where I couldn´t care less about World Records, and don´t watch replays or read strategy guides for it, because I am happy in my own little world of beating my own records. If you want to figure out everything yourself, than that´s fine - but don´t get upset if your scores aren´t anywhere near to what they possibly could be.

Also, if some anti-replay arguments are to be taken seriously, then the same should apply for reading strategy guides, because it gives you insights you might not have achieved yourself, too. We must keep in mind that when we watch high-level replays by famed japanese players, those players didn´t figured out everything by themselves either.

For instance, how many people would have figured out the flamingo bombing spot in Garegga all by themselves? Or let alone exotic ship and level combinations to unlock hidden bosses in Batrider?

[DJ Incompetent]

Which brings up a related question: where is the line drawn between classing a replay as a "normal player replay" and a "superplay"? Is it a certain amount of attained points? A certain level of skill in control and strategic knowledge? Both?

Hmm, I just assumed it to be the lowest possible claimed achievement listed on super-play. So basically, any recorded 1CC. but to expand further with 'elitist view', I would guess more relevant classification of superplays would be either a 1CC with emphasis of score or any 1LC period. This is as 1LCs and high-score 1CCs directly conflict with each other a lot of the time because suiciding-for-___ stock is a legit scoring tactic.

So there's survival superplays and scoring superplays.

[CIT]

Which brings up a related question: where is the line drawn between classing a replay as a "normal player replay" and a "superplay"? Is it a certain amount of attained points? A certain level of skill in control and strategic knowledge? Both?

Well it depends on the individual viewer and his relationship with a certain game where a replay ends and a superplay begins.

For example, for me any Garegga replay over 10 Mio pts is a superplay, simply because that level of play still seems so unatainable to me.

You have a lot more experience with Garegga so maybe for you only a 15Mio+ replay would be a superplay.

[MA7]

What has contributed to this change, if any?
Any other thoughts?

I reckon the march of technology and You Tube have had an influence on the increase of replays.

You Tube is widely known and easy to use, and perfect for a 1 level replay. I think players are more prepared to stick up a 'me playing game x, i'm not that good' replay now than in the past - when you had to make special effort to host it somewhere. YT Is the first place I'd check if I wanted to get a feel for a game I've not seen before. The quality's lacking, but let's face it, in practical terms it's fine.

And as my connection speed goes up and up (over the past few years from dial up to my present 4mb broadband connection), it's now much less of a chore to d/l a 600 meg replay.

So as access to replays has grown easier and more convenient, people are much more inclined to check them out. It's a far cry from tracking down VHS's from japan.

[Rob]

and yea, i got the old gamespy thread about replays=cheating (rob vs everybody else )saved on my hd, but there's too many shitty analogies to martial arts, rpgs, tombraider and marathons (and a klax tangent)

I can remember how that went, exactly. Because it is always the same shitty analogies. Hey guys, shooters aren't football or martial arts.

Yeah, the marathon/race-shortcut thing was all me.

I think the WR-worshiping/this is the "proper" way, can't conceive of higher score (see the jeremycarrier DDP thread), "hey, let's include a superplay DVD with the game," people watching that replay before playing it themselves, etc. are crap. I don't even like to know what a record score is, personally. My attitude hasn't really changed, I just don't want to get into the same old (useless) arguments.

[Pirate1019]

Meh, I'm fine with whatever. I lack the patience to analyze superplays anyway, so whatever advantage they would give me is lost. I watch them only to get a feel for a potential purchase, or for entertainment value (rarely).

[shoe-sama]

I like to cheat by feeding millions of credits into player 2 side and suiciding so that player 1 gets mass points from the powerups.

[zlk]

Which brings up a related question: where is the line drawn between classing a replay as a "normal player replay" and a "superplay"? Is it a certain amount of attained points? A certain level of skill in control and strategic knowledge? Both?

This is a difficult question. I think the viewer has to determine on their own what is a normal replay and what is superplay. For example: in my opinion any replay that finishes ddp, ddp-doj, or mushihime sama ultra mode would be considered a superplay. However if you live in Tokyo and see these things on a daily basis, you might not be all that impressed. Perhaps from this person's perspective, for a replay to be a superplay the score must be a new Arcadia record.

[LUNardei]

The most important thing to me is what I can get from the replay. From a japanese replay I can get some top strategies that I can try to implement in my route. A western run is good to see how other players at my level (or at a similar one) did that. I'm definitely interested in both because the west is my field for competition, and the east is a constant source of new possibilities and ideas.

[undamned]

Since the benchmark shooting community (The Japanese one -- people that hang out at Hey!, specifically)

So much fun to watch. I actually had the most fun watching pro Virtual On players
-ud

[Veracity]

I don't look at replays very often, partly because I suppose I sympathize a bit with the sentiment that one might as well play an adventure game with a step by step guide open on another screen, but mostly because they're usually pretty dull to watch. I certainly don't think they're evil or dishonourable, though, and the idea that it's somehow more correct to play a game in some kind of self-imposed information vacuum strikes me as pretty weird.

I certainly don't see how reading a detailed guide along the lines of many of the ST posts here is meaningfully different from improving by watching a replay. I'll go looking for guides, written or recorded, if I'm hitting a wall with regard to surviving some section, or simply if I'm playing a game with elements I feel life is far too short to cobble together from experimentation (Donpachi's hordes of invisible bees are a good example).

Replays also have the potential to be entertaining from a simple showing off perspective. I think there's a Perfect Cherry Blossom Phantasm clear kicking about that uses only lateral movement. Where that fits into the broader discussion I'm unsure, since it's pretty obviously worthless from any practical perspective, but amusing to see pulled off. Things like double plays and zero-score runs are kind of similar. I'd even lump really high scoring 'sensible' runs in here, to an extent - there's a Psyvariar Medium Unit SWY clear on super-play.co.uk I don't think many players would consider trying to reproduce much of, for instance. If you're just looking for relatively easy to execute survival/scoring tactics, more conservative, pedestrian recordings are more likely to help.

[God]

The problem of players looking up the solution is common for many strategic games. Chess players call it opening book (even the computers use it) and magic players call it net decking.

Players are encouraged to do it because those who don't have trouble keeping up with those who do. Players who start doing it are unlikely to be against it. That could explain a shift in attitude.

[szycag]

I love em man. I even whip it out sometimes.

My notebook.

To take notes.

I'm filling a dvd full of avis from Super-Play.co.uk, any cool ones that might be hiding from me? I'm trying to get mostly the big names...

EDIT: Icarus your APB replay is awesome!

[Icarus]

It's pretty interesting to read some of the responses so far.

A lot of it is in how far a player is willing to go to improve their scores. Competition is quite sporadic here, so it's pretty understandable that replays/strategy aren't really used often.

It'll be interesting to see what happens at STGT this year. I'd expect inputs, replays and strategy to be exchanging hands quite rapidly within teams in order to improve individual and team statistics. Well... that's what I think will happen...

EDIT: Icarus your APB replay is awesome!

Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it.
There are better ones here, however. Not ALLs, but current personal bests.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 162#216162

I have a ton of unreleased stuff as well. Most of it will probably stay in the personal archives, however. -_-;;

[GaijinPunch]

It'll be interesting to see what happens at STGT this year.

I predict people will, once again, take it way too seriously.

[Pirate1019]

It'll be interesting to see what happens at STGT this year. I'd expect inputs, replays and strategy to be exchanging hands quite rapidly within teams in order to improve individual and team statistics. Well... that's what I think will happen...

You might be mistaking NamakoTeam for everyone else. Some teams seemed (to me at least) to have less then stellar communication.

Back on Topic: I guess another reason I don't watch as many replays/superplays is how the videos are compressed and such. Roughly 1/3 of the videos on super-play.co.uk are in formats that none of the software on my computer can read properly. That and the sometimes large file sizes combined with small hard drive make watching or keeping replays on my computer sort of a hassle. In another twist of bad luck, my disc drive is broken so I can't burn anything to discs either.

...I should invest in a new computer.

[sven666]

It'll be interesting to see what happens at STGT this year.

I predict people will, once again, take it way too seriously.

nothing wrong with taking it seriously, makes it more fun if there is some prestige to it.

ill be sitting thisone out but heres hopeing someone steps up and gets team sweden off their asses! (not an easy task)