Replay Culture

[Icarus]

Lately I've noticed a trend at the shmupsforum towards a pro-replay attitude. While some of the newcomers might think this isn't really surprising, I can still remember, back when I re-registered on the old Gamespy forum, there was an air against replays - viewing them was considered taboo in most respects ("they are a cheating aid, and promote laziness in learning strategies..." is one particular comment that stands out in my memory) - while actual replay makers were few and far between.

However, in the past couple of years I've noticed a shift towards the pro-replay attitude. People are actively seeking out replays for new and old games, players use MAME's .inp and .avi functions to create and share clips in strategy discussions (as well as using them as high score validations), and the amount of replay makers has increased quite a fair bit. I've noticed quite a few players getting into the replay recording habit lately, which is quite interesting. People even collect replays now, not just the DVD kind (which in part has helped this shift, just look at the amount of people who buy up the Appreciate Collection and the Insanity DVDs), but also of the .avi kind.

Now in my case, I've always supported the use of replays in strategy discussion, as it is helpful to have a visual guide to demonstrating technique, as well as using replays to validate particular scores. I watch replays (my own and other people's) to spot tricks and patterns that can be useful in future score attempts, as well as watching other people's replays for entertainment.

However, I'm quite interested in what you guys think.
Do you think there's been a change of opinion?
What has contributed to this change, if any?
Any other thoughts?

[CMoon]

I enjoy the replays, but I tend to absorb them in a more general sense. I definitely don't end up playing like the replays, but there might be something more in the scoring mechanic that I didn't understand, or a strategy that becomes apparent due to watching the replay.

Therein lies the problem--if watching replays is bad (or cheating), are our strategy forums taboo as well?

This is of course very different than the person (do they really exist) who just copies the video twitch by twitch.

[CIT]

More than watching a master player's replay, I often find watching my own (or another "mere mortal" player's) replays even more helpful for spotting errors and getting new ideas.

Replays are also a lot of fun though, especially stuff on an INH level, where you're just like "ZOMGorz!! How is it even possible!?!", I don't really think they're that helpful though, because even if I come to know in theory how to counterstop say Guwange, the scoring tricks involved are still way to difficult for me to ever pull off.

Oh yeah, and people who say watching a replay is cheating and not pro need to get a life! Even in pro sports coaches will analyze replays of their opponets' games together with their players. It's just natural!

[shoe-sama]

I like posting replays and saying that I suck.

[zlk]

I was always baffled by people who were against replays. If these same people walk into an arcade, do they close their eyes so they don't see other people playing? I can understand the attitude that some people have of wanting to figure the game out on their own, but being anti-replay makes no sense.

[Frederik]

Every strategy besides an actual cheat is valid in highscore competition, so I don´t see why watching replays should have even remotely something in common with cheating.

I rarely watch replays to learn from them, though, mostly it´s just a weird sense of entertainment watching the most mental stuff players can pull off, or to get a look at games I never got (or never will get) to play. Watching top-level replay of games I do play myself demoralizes myself way too often, though, Batrider being an example.

And, of course, there´s the bitter satisfaction of seing some top player just tearing through extremely hard games. It´s kinda like seing some big kid that used to bully you in school being beaten up by Jean Claude van Damme or something. It´s not your own effort, but satisfying nevertheless. And the more work I put into "real life" stuff, the more my gaming morale decays. Whatever.

Oh, and besides - most players here won´t ever be able to watch top players in the arcades, talking about strategies in real life, so replays are the next best thing. However, I think that actually talking to other players and having a "scene" must be much more valuable than a bunch of videos and strategy guides.

[Motorherp]

A lot of the fun for me is trying to figure out my own paths through the games. In this respect shmups can be like puzzles which have to be solved. I feel if I analyse super plays too much it can remove this element of fun since I'm copying someone elses moves rather than working out my own. Having said this though I do enjoy watching the replays and have quite a few stashed away on my computer as well as the super play dvd's they started packaging with Cave games. I use them to get a better insight into the scoring mechanics and strategies so I can improve my own playing. Its also just really awesome just to see the pro's double loop games that I cant even get round once.

Like CIT says aswell, I've sometimes recorded replays of myself when I get to bits that I just cant figure out. Being able to watch it back and concetrate on the enemies and bullet patterns as a whole without having to worry about playing can really help you figure out new paths.

[incognoscente]

I hate replays and all they stand for. I just download replays to re-upload them because no one seems to bother saving them before they're pulled.


:)

[DJ Incompetent]

I remember the NES days with Nintendo keeping all secrets closely guarded. It was facinating to observe the people pooling their tips together the best they could and rumor back and forth to determine how somebody really could beat Mike Tyson, or if it were possible in the first place.

Now in present day, I observe the Futari thread where the tail-end wasn't the useless stuff, but people pooling as much info as they could to studying and determining just how and who could defeat the TLB(s). It was great to know replays were bein' uploaded and thrown everywhere not because they were complete, but it looked like the Japanese were just passing-on what they knew in hopes that somebody could put all the information together to finally beat that thing. It was satisfying to know with all the advances in media we have in front of us, at least a game can still put up a (non-staged MMO) fight that at least puzzles all the elites for awhile.

...at least I'd like to think that was what was happening...

[PROMETHEUS]

"they are a cheating aid, and promote laziness in learning strategies..."

This attitude doesn't make any sense to me. Why should you have to learn the "strategies", which are just perfected trajectories that you have to take to survive or score, by inventing them yourself ? When it's not fun to you, isn't that just a waste of time ? Is a shmup player good because he has spent countless hours trying to find the perfect trajectory and then memorized it ? Would you say the other guy who scores as well and uses the same trajectories but spent like half as much time learning them because he watched some replays is not as good a player ?

Of course not. What shows the skill of a player is his ability to perform a run with said trajectories. Unfortunately, many games focus only on learning that, and when you have it memorized there is next to nothing left to dodge -_-

Code: Select all

Here's a question I'm asking by the way : isn't the lack of difficulty in actually performing a run after the "strategies" are memorized the main characteristic that differentiates old school games from manic games ?

Watching replay is just help provided to players who want to improve faster. They are like advices guiding them. It is shared knowledge.

Soccer players re-watch their matches to improve.
Starcraft and Quake gamers watch replays.
Martial artists are taught everything they know by a master.

This is just a faster way to getting better, there is no point in refusing it, unless you value the fun of inventing things by yourself more than getting as good as you can.

[PROMETHEUS]

And, of course, there´s the bitter satisfaction of seing some top player just tearing through extremely hard games. It´s kinda like seing some big kid that used to bully you in school being beaten up by Jean Claude van Damme or something.

loved this analogy lol~ ^^

[Rob]

Even in pro sports coaches will analyze replays of their opponets' games together with their players.

Sports and video games have little in common until there are shooting games that involve many players at once (with no programmed enemies). People are not the same as something that operates just to be chained enemy #456 on stage 3 with a set bullet pattern.

Yeah, I still think the habitual consulting of replays is lazy. It limits the problem solving element, which I think is key in many good games.

[Mortificator]

I don't think there's anything dishonest about learning from replays, but I don't watch them myself for two reasons:

1. I want to try and figure out tactics on my own.

2. It's pretty boring watching someone else play when I could be playing myself.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm at least somewhat in line with the previous two posters...I definitely won't criticize someone else for consulting replays for strategies, but since I'm not a "hardcore" type who's determined to rip the lid off of all my games in as rapid a fashion as possible, I prefer to figure stuff out myself, if at all possible...I guess I find it a bit more "gratifying," for lack of a better term. Granted, I have sometimes watched replays to get the general idea of a game when I'm completely lost, or to preview it if I've never played it before, but pretty much anything beyond that I personally prefer to do myself, even if it takes longer...after all, what rush am I in?

[shoe-sama]

Screw replays I use savestates.

[DJ Incompetent]

You have the "How do I beat that?" players and the "Can I beat that?" players.

Nothin' wrong with bein' either, but there's no need to force the views on each other. Everybody's got a thing. Regardless how deep the information war goes, both player types still have to perform.

[Icarus]

Exhibit A.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=10382
Can't believe I just read all of that again.
Made for some good lolz, however.

[Rob]

I miss u Nemo.

[Ganelon]

Well, replays do provide a cushion against experimenting to find one's own strategies. Similarly, they also allow players with faster reflexes and less cognizance to have a huge advantage over those who have the opposite set of characteristics. If the players being videotaped weren't giving these videos out, I'd almost feel that people are stealing their strategies.

That said, videos are great tools to help players of all types develop. In an era where shooter fans are few, as long as they help attract players to our genre, then it's a blessing IMO. However, I believe that anybody watching videos for the sake of marveling at shmup-gods instead of incorporating as many bits of technique as they can are sorely missing out. Of course, this last point is far less true of shooter videos, where it's often obvious how specific obstacles are overcome, than of fighter videos, where too many basic key points are often missed.

I don't think there's been a change in opinion though. IIRC, it was just a vocal minority who pushed against replays, and they likely feel the same way now. However, Shmups as a whole has been seeing a lot more newer faces, who depend on replays as their source of tricks and have sort of displaced the more "hardcore" players, many of who don't really post here anymore.

[Sonic R]

I don't watch replays. I stay away from them.

My story:
In 2005 when ESPGaluda arrived in my mailbox I opened it up and played for a good hour or so. After words I placed the DVD in my PS2 and proceed to watch it. After viewing it, I went to play the game again to try what I just saw on the video. What happen was that I could come no where near to the 1st level score on the DVD. I was not even close and I was play worse now trying to score well than when I first play the game.

It was very bad, everyone I know would talk about the scores they are achieve in the shoot them up games they were playing and I was fail every time. last year I was about to quit playing shoot them ups - I was very upset and I was not having fun chasing scores. ESPGaluda is a dark time in my life. I don't like the game. For me its is one of the worst games of all time.

What I learn in that hard lesson is that first and foremost, Have fun in playing games.
second, do not watch super plays.

[Carmen]

I agree that they are a form of 'cheating' I mean, this is really ALL very personal, and so of course there should be no penelty for watching one (as opposed to, you know, really cheating!) But for me I felt terrible watching one. For a game like Gradius III or something that doesn't have any scoring strategies, sure, I'll see one because it doesn't effect anything I'll be able to do. And for a game I'm really good at (I don't know... Wild Guns?) or don't care THAT much about its also good to pass time. But for a game I really like and want to improve at, I really want to find everything myself. This has been a recent change in mindset, because before I would see a stage or two of a 'superplay', but now I don't touch them at all! And I feel much better for it when discovering a new method in a game

EDIT: Also, if I don't own the game. I've bought several games as the results of watching 'superplays' and by the time they arrived I had forgotten any specific strategies in said replays (if I even caught them, without knowing about the game.)

[Davey]

I'm stubborn and would rather figure it out myself, but that's not my only reason for not watching replays.

For one thing, I find them boring. Even games I really like are hard to just watch. shiftace posted a (much anticipated) Parsec47 replay last week, and I still haven't taken the time to watch it. And that's my favorite shmup.

Also, videos are hard to follow sometimes; they look really mechanical and jumpy. I've even tried watching my own replays to figure out what I'm doing wrong, and my instincts while watching are often different than my in-game instincts. It's kind of disorienting in a way. For some reason, though, watching other people play in person feels more natural (for lack of a better word).

[Limbrooke]

For certain games, replays are useful, others... not so much.
The end.

Oh yeah, and if LAOS' Batrider replay ever finds it's way to the net, that will be a good day.


PS. Someone want to get the Cotton 2 super-play uploaded somewhere?

[szycag]

Sonic R's story was really sad

I think it's good to watch replays sometimes just to assure yourself that there is a method to the madness, to keep practicing. I guess I can see that they are discouraging too.

[gavin19]

I haven't been here long enough to notice any shift in attitude towards superplays, but I can remember that 90%+ comments towards watching replays have been positive.
Tbh I had never watched a replay for any game, let alone a shmup, but if there ever was a genre that needed replays it is this one. The precision/positioning that is sometimes needed to maximise score isn't always apparent until you watch a true superplay.
I played Espgaluda Arrange mode for months only ever achieving a 10 million first stage score. Within a week of watching the superplay I managed 32 million, with the superplay score itself being around 40 million. I am a 'million' miles from being a good player but even I was impressed with the improvement. Yet the improvement was not achieved with more skillful play, if anything I took more risks and dodged better when I was getting 10 million, rather it was now knowing where to be, and when, to get the most from the scoring mechanics.
I guess it did feel a little like I was cheating, same for when I watched Kiken's Karous replays, but I got so much more enjoyment from knowing I was that bit closer to playing the game 'properly' that it outweighed any guilt. I suppose some shmups allow for more freedom in exploiting scoring and such but with most of the ones that I have played superplays have been a huge boost to my performance (confidence).

[freddiebamboo]

Watching someone do it and being able to do it are two very different things.

Superplays are half guidelines and half "I wish I could do that" dreams.


And it's far better watching other "normal" player replays to get better, than watching supers and trying to emulate them.

[Klatrymadon]

Storm in a teacup, perhaps? I was blissfully unaware of this wing of quasi-purism. Personally, I love trying to find my own ways of doing things, but if it's more conducive to having fun for another chap to have someone else show him how things can be done, then good for him. Gaming isn't a competition (er, scoring well is, but you get my drift).

Surely nobody out there would actually accuse anyone of 'stealing' if they used the same strategies to get through a game? I can understand people thinking that watching replays somehow curbs imagination, but there's only so much you can do within the framework of a shmup (as a player) anyway.

[GaijinPunch]

Replays are no different than going to your arcade and watching people. Since the benchmark shooting community (The Japanese one -- people that hang out at Hey!, specifically) hone their skills this way, I don't see why a bunch of white fucks should get upset about it.

I was play worse now trying to score well than when I first play the game.

Welcome to the wonderful world of playing for score.

[sfried]

Watching someone do it and being able to do it are two very different things.

This is my philosophy, too. Normally, most replays are done by pro-gamers who can make judgements fairly quickly and react with a certain amount of reflex. Not everyone has the same level of "twitch reflexes" as the other. That's the beauty of a game that allows you to play your own strategyas opposed to force someone to go "tourney legal" immediately.

[Twiddle]

I was not even close and I was play worse now trying to score well than when I first play the game.

You should try games where scoring isn't entirely counter to your survival, like Batrider.