Shmup Evangelism

durias · Post by **durias** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:10 pm

Would you like shmups to grow in acceptance and popularity here in the US?

Or would you prefer to keep shmups (y)our "best kept secret?"

I can see meritable arguments for both sides. I presume that this board would probably be split 70/30. 70% for growing and 30% for protecting--keeping shmups relatively exclusive.

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially if you find yourself on the "protecting" side.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:36 pm

I'm somewhat split, myself...as much as I'm always eager to see new shmups released, and aware that increased genre popularity would help that to happen more often (not to mention that I just plain enjoy seeing people like/appreciate the same stuff I do), I can't help but counterbalance this with the knowledge that, not that long ago, shmups were mainstream, lots of them were mediocre or worse, and people by and large got sick of them. At present, the few shmups that do see release are almost without exception targeted precisely at the small remaining fanbase, with little effort to "revitalize the genre" or "appeal to the masses," which I see as both good and bad, for a load of different reasons.

Basically, though, I just tell myself that what I feel has pretty much zero impact on where the genre might end up, and proceed to just play the stuff I like and leave it at that.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:00 am

BulletMagnet wrote:Basically, though, I just tell myself that what I feel has pretty much zero impact on where the genre might end up, and proceed to just play the stuff I like and leave it at that.

Quoted for truth.

If people want to be "educated", then they can seek the answers themselves, rather than have someone preach to them about it. Shootemups have had their time in the spotlight, and they are progressing fine as they are at present, so leave it at that.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:08 am

The shooters I like, danmaku shooters like ESPGaluda and Imperishable night are so completely detached from what most people regard as 'shmups' that I wouldn't even define them as being so. Recently, wondering between two nearby arcades in London, I played a few credits of Ketsui, then a few of Raiden II. Completely different. Call me elitist, but the above are right; it is this very stratergy of trying to apeal to a niche audience that has, in my mind come out with the best results, and has always come from either small, extremely talented companies like Treasure and Cave, or even individuals like X.X and and ZUN. Therefore while I would welcome the frankly highly unlikely boom in popularity of danmaku, I personaly would hate to see 'shmups' suddenly come into vogue, simply because it would take a step back from the evolution that was nesesitated by it's waning popularity.

tl/dr: Let the plebs get their hands on it, and it'll ruin it for elitist fucks like me.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:10 am

BulletMagnet pretty much hit the nail on the head. Sure I'd love for them to be more popular. But you have to sacrifice gameplay or difficulty in order to make them appeal to more people. Developers need to find the balance between the two.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:42 am

durias wrote: Or would you prefer to keep shmups (y)our "best kept secret?"

Anyone who thinks a hardcore genre should be left in the dark just for the sake of it is a dick.

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:58 am

I want everyone to play shmups in the same way that I want grindcore to be the "next big thing" in pop music - fun ideas that I'm quite resigned to never seeing come to fruition.

I think it's the duty of forums like this not to shoo people away, though. Most of us are welcoming and encouraging...

durias · Post by **durias** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:12 am

Bal-Sagoth wrote:I think it's the duty of forums like this not to shoo people away, though. Most of us are welcoming and encouraging...

True that.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:06 am

How can we infuriate, frustrate, and repeatedly kill the player?

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:14 am

Bal-Sagoth wrote:Most of us are welcoming and encouraging...

"If you come as an emissary of peace, don't carry a spear..."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vita

thenoble1 · Post by **thenoble1** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:33 am

Essentially, no matter what happens, you would still end up with two markets. American and Japanese shmups. Don't believe me? Look at RPGs theseadays. Sure, there are enough RPGs out there to satiate the American gamer, but the REALLY hardcore RPG-er is still gonna import them because the Japanese ones, anyway. Plus, look at anything popular in America. Once it becomes popular, it sucks. Look at Dane Cook, Napoleon Dynamite, Fallout Boy, etc. Quite frankly, my plate is full enough with all of them out there, anyways, so it could stay fairly niche and I'd be happy.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:59 am

Mainstreaming shmups looks good on paper. But most industry devs follow the money, not evolve video game experiences.

I'd like to think the only people who would be most likely to advance the genre are the ones still working on STGs nowadays.

Then again, if three Microsoft interns can out-innovate Konami, Cave, and Moss/Seibu combined...well...I suppose the genre functioning as action-packed beatable golf courses is here to stay...for-ev-errr

*rolls dice on Treasure*

...aaaand I'm so used to the budget pricing now...

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:20 am

thenoble1 wrote:Essentially, no matter what happens, you would still end up with two markets. American and Japanese shmups...

What about Euro shmups?

(Oh, don't get me wrong, there was a whole lot of bad Euro shmup glut back then...but that didn't stop them from getting a few aspects right. I actually have to applaud Shin'En to some extent for doing a little bit of research. They have a long way to go, but Euroshmups marketwise have a better headstart than their Yankee counterparts...)

Also, I wouldn't mind a "second wave" of shooter popularity, provided they actually get the aspects right and don't go overboard with features and instead concentrate on making fairly balanced games. i know there are simply cash-in companies out there, but if they can get specific companies to do it right for them, it probably won't matter as much.

DJ Rectal Prolapse wrote: tl/dr: Let the plebs get their hands on it, and it'll ruin it for elitist fucks like me.

Ironic, considering someone once called the shmups.com forums as being "spazzed up."

Besides, I find most danmaku as being trite. Most of ZUN and Mushihimesama doesn't compel me to play anymore. Something about those games doesn't feel very rewarding..

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:21 am

I was tempted to write some bashing on the n-th topic about (barf!) shmups evangelization but, honestly, if you people think that in 2007 this absurdity still can be *even* taken in consideration, you need some catching up to do.

Personally I'd appreciate some answer like "ehi, I like to discuss a useless topic every n-th years, it makes me feel like time doesn't pass (yeah, right) and I like the idea that I'm a young SturmAbteilung ready to make endless clones of my persona so I can be safe!". Among other things, life tends to be nicer when there aren't psychotics that try to convert others to their bizarre beliefs (yes, I am talking about stuff videogames as well, stuff that tends to happen mostly in a reduced amount of countries...).

Alternatively, why you people entertain such idea? Because you need to be accepted of your ultra-nerdy hobby? Etc. Etc. Etc. Honestly you can argue that I am trolling, but I cannot see why I should pretend that in 2007 this discourse is less than absurd (mainly because completely out of time). The first time I read a similar thread was in 1999 on the old thread, and it was already 7 years that, outside Japan, almost everything outside the odd Raiden/Psikyo title didn't see the light.

Keeping in mind these "trivial" issues might help in discussing the topic in a sane way. Trying not to be accepted by the rest of the world at any cost might also be not so bad. Playing videogames instead of obsessing how cool and niche one is, ditto. Etc, Etc Etc...

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:58 am

Rando wrote;

Playing videogames instead of obsessing how cool and niche one is, ditto. Etc, Etc Etc...

This raises the issue of people stumbling into a scene merely because its niche and fashionable.
This happens in 1 on 1 Fighters and with mainstream releases like Ikaruga.
ie. Fly by night characters who appear for the fashion and disappear just as fast as they arrived.

Disclaimer:- I am not attacking Ikaruga, I'm just using it as an example of such a phenomena

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:49 am

"If you come as an emissary of peace, don't carry a spear..."

Damn straight. Thankfully, most of the one-off visitors we get are perfectly pleasant and inquisitive, too...

I used to really dislike this place, but it's the shmup board ever now.

Because you need to be accepted of your ultra-nerdy hobby?

I don't think it's about insecurity or acceptance at all, mate. Most of us just really want to see our favourite developers get into a position where they can comfortably put out games without facing the gutter. 'Evangelism' is a nasty little word alright, but it'd certainly be nice if more fans of 2D gaming would support the Touhou projects or Triangle Service (although I'm aware many people hate their games) before the Virtual Console.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:51 am

DEL wrote:Rando wrote;
Playing videogames instead of obsessing how cool and niche one is, ditto. Etc, Etc Etc...
This raises the issue of people stumbling into a scene merely because its niche and fashionable.
This happens in 1 on 1 Fighters and with mainstream releases like Ikaruga.
ie. Fly by night characters who appear for the fashion and disappear just as fast as they arrived.

Disclaimer:- I am not attacking Ikaruga, I'm just using it as an example of such a phenomena

I take full responsibility and pride of driving Zweihander off the forums

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:18 pm

Randorama wrote:I was tempted to write some bashing on the n-th topic about (barf!) shmups evangelization but, honestly, if you people think that in 2007 this absurdity still can be *even* taken in consideration, you need some catching up to do.

Collect the topics. Make another push to get the the Board Faq appended. That "Topics to Avoid" section looks tasty..

durius has been walkin' the fine line of opening duplicate threads for awhile. Surprisingly his wording is usually juuust different enough for nobody to notice.

Ah well. More power to him.

Anyway, I'll drink to your other points, Mr. Rando

durias · Post by **durias** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:53 pm

Bal-Sagoth wrote:...it's the shmup board ever now.

+1.

DJ Incompetent wrote:durias has been walkin' the fine line of opening duplicate threads for awhile. Surprisingly his wording is usually juuust different enough for nobody to notice.

Ah well. More power to him.

Thanks. And, I'm being careful (i.e. using search, PMing board peeps who seem to know about what I'm looking into, etc.).

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:44 pm

you don't have to sacrifice anything for popularity, just explain how the damn things work these days. no one really takes the time to write down just how rank works, they just expect it to be "gotten". that's a major reason why they've lost their popularity with the rise of difficulty.

Post by **undamned** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:20 am

I don't really try and "sell" anybody on shmups. If I have a friend that doesn't mind playing games, I may throw on a shmup and see if they dig it, but I'm not butt-hurt if they don't. Chances are we'll have more fun playing Mr. Driller, anyways

-ud

tassian · Post by **tassian** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:20 am

DEL wrote:This raises the issue of people stumbling into a scene merely because its niche and fashionable.
This happens in 1 on 1 Fighters and with mainstream releases like Ikaruga.
ie. Fly by night characters who appear for the fashion and disappear just as fast as they arrived.

I don't entirely share your opinion. I, for example, have been playing shmups when I was younger (80s/90s) and stopped playing them for a long time. Maybe that was because I wasn't able to appreciate them the way I do today. At some point I got curious about the Ikaruga hype. So I got an NTSC-J DC and Ikaruga and got so hooked to the genre again that I can't stop anymore. Interestingly enough I drifted into the danmaku direction and enjoy Cave shooters now with the occasional TechnoSoft intermezzo. And I found my way here via the (bloody excellent, as I'd like to point out) guys at Super-Play.co.uk. So I think that it's a good thing to have the occasional fashionable shmup like Ikaruga to attract interest and have people drift into our niche occasionally.

durias · Post by **durias** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:34 am

tassian wrote:I have been playing shmups when I was younger (80s/90s) and stopped playing them for a long time. Maybe that was because I wasn't able to appreciate them the way I do today. At some point I got curious about the Ikaruga hype. So I got an NTSC-J DC and Ikaruga and got so hooked to the genre again that I can't stop anymore.

That's exactly my story.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:50 am

durias wrote:
tassian wrote:I have been playing shmups when I was younger (80s/90s) and stopped playing them for a long time. Maybe that was because I wasn't able to appreciate them the way I do today. At some point I got curious about the Ikaruga hype. So I got an NTSC-J DC and Ikaruga and got so hooked to the genre again that I can't stop anymore.
That's exactly my story.

Same here.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Tue Jun 19, 2007 6:02 am

sfried wrote:
durias wrote:
tassian wrote:I have been playing shmups when I was younger (80s/90s) and stopped playing them for a long time. Maybe that was because I wasn't able to appreciate them the way I do today. At some point I got curious about the Ikaruga hype. So I got an NTSC-J DC and Ikaruga and got so hooked to the genre again that I can't stop anymore.
That's exactly my story.
Same here.

The same with me, but the shmup that rekindled the flame was Einhander. After that, I bought Gradius Gaiden, R-Type Delta and G-Darius. We need more horizontal shmups.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:28 pm

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:
sfried wrote:
durias wrote: That's exactly my story.
Same here.
The same with me, but the shmup that rekindled the flame was Einhander. After that, I bought Gradius Gaiden, R-Type Delta and G-Darius. We need more horizontal shmups.

While actually for me it's not exactly "the same", as I always enjoyed shmups. When I reached this site (Thanx to Akira), I was so happy to find that lots of people also had it as their favourite genre...

This was in 98, and at that time the most "modern" shmups I had ever played were SNES ones.... and Blazing Star on Neo-Geo ,,I think it was in 99 when Akira told me that Raine now was emulating "Armed Police Batrider" ... and I didn't even know what game was that.. even more with this silly name...

And obviously I got blow out with it, I had never played a shmup that was SO INTENSE... and then I crossed the Donpachi review here in this site, and begun discovering the "modern" shmups.

So, I think I never dropped the genre, but I always have the feeling that I took a long time to find out that the genre hadn't died in the 16 bits era.

LUNardei · Post by **LUNardei** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:24 pm

Lol at the n-th similar answer Rando!
Honestly you can argue that I am trolling, but I cannot see why you should pretend that in 2007 that kind of answer to this kind of topic should be less absurd than the topic itself

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:42 am

Randorama wrote:I was tempted to write some bashing on the n-th topic about (barf!) shmups evangelization but, honestly, if you people think that in 2007 this absurdity still can be *even* taken in consideration, you need some catching up to do.

I would've said the same thing about RPGs before Final Fantasy 7 actually, or MUDs before Everquest. I knew people who played them, but they were always very nerdy (maybe it was less of a niche genre overseas). It's true that RPGs lend themselves naturally towards being mass-appeal FMV-fests. However, I don't think it's impossible to turn a shmup into that too.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:50 am

louisg wrote:I would've said the same thing about RPGs before Final Fantasy 7 actually, or MUDs before Everquest. I knew people who played them, but they were always very nerdy (maybe it was less of a niche genre overseas). It's true that RPGs lend themselves naturally towards being mass-appeal FMV-fests. However, I don't think it's impossible to turn a shmup into that too.

In a way, I kind of appriciate how the pendulum swings on shmup popularity. Looking at 2007, it seems that old 80's wave of shooters might return, although I wouldn't be surprised if it dies down again, for the better of preventing the genre from being poluted by too much mass-appeal. (Imagine if everybody bought Touhou, Mushihimesama, and Castle Shikigami just for the characters/story/cutscenes...People are already doing it with Touhou)

tassian · Post by **tassian** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:47 am

I really don't think that anyone on this forum would seriously want shmups to become mainstream, would you? Because, let's be honest, it's bloody satisfying when you play danmaku -- or any modern shmup for that matter -- and your friends start gasping because they have no idea how on earth you can dodge that many bullets without being neurally wired to the gaming equipment.
But the fact that we don't want shmups to be mainstream may be the exact problem: on the one hand you'd like to keep shmups in their niche but on the other hand it would be wonderful to have a better availability of software in that genre. This contradiction makes life pretty hard. We can only hope that the slow advances that we see at the moment (Ikaruga on Xbox Live, old school shmups on VC etc.) will help to attract just enough people to the genre to convince companies that they can make a living by producing shmups but on the other hand keep the number of shmups fans low enough to keep the genre out of the mainstream. But that's just my 2-€-cents.

EDIT: Maybe Ikaruga was on Xbox Arcade -- but what do I know about those bloody "nexgen" consoles...

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