Worst Ketsui review ever

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:10 pm

Sonic R wrote:
Ord wrote:2 things. One - i'm drunk. Two is it just me or is Ketsui very overated? I mean I really liked it (my review here) but it seems to me that people seem to be upping this to Cave's holy grail of shooters, when in fact (personally) I think creativly in design, music, and system it's actually really quite basic and (dare I say it) average.
Ketsui is the game that seperate the highbrow from the "average" shoot them up players. It is that game that can only be played on arcade equipment. Many are not lucky to have arcade near by or have super gun / cabinet at the home. Then the game is uncommon and expensive. Ketsui is also not playable on the MAME.

So there is hype of epic proportions when this game is make mention. Highbrows gloat about how they are play it and it is something special. Everyone else is in awe and dreams about the day that they may possibly play this mythical shooter.

So I can see how it can receive the label of overrated.

Yup! I was just a wee bit too drunk to type that. My sentiments exactly.

Post by **Icarus** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:10 pm

Post by **Dave_K.** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:27 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:Right, but why the fuck would you leave it up? It was clearly rushed. Just come out and say, "look, sorry, I had absolutely no fucking clue what I was talking about. This game is hard as nails, it's good, and plays almost nothing like Dodonpachi". Instead, it's just there to laugh at (and is really easy to find when you Google Ketsui).

I invited Brandon to my 3rd Bay Area shmupmeet (since its somewhat local to him), to give Ketsui a proper review, but he had plans in LA that Halloween weekend. I remember him saying he stuck by his initial impressions, but was interested in giving it another go. So maybe I'll try inviting him again to my next one (in August?) weather permitting.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:18 am

Twiddle wrote:edit: ic hasn't given a shit about anything but hentai games ever since they hired recap

I don't follow. Recap's news posts are pretty much the most unique (and for me useful) blurbs in gaming news. Or was it just coincidence it was the same time Recap started posting there?

There's no reason to pull down an unpopular opinion

What TWE said.

I remember him saying he stuck by his initial impressions,

This is the problem of giving a full page preview based one
1: A game you don't understand
2: A game you only play once

I'm curious to see how far he got in this easy game on one credit. Many of the games at gamengai are based off an at-a-glance play, but they're a paragraph, and don't go to deep.

Ketsui overrated

No. You are high.

roker · Post by **roker** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:58 am

Ketsui is one of those games that lives up to the hype

the music is Manabu Namiki's best since his Raizing days

the gameplay system is tops

and I love Cave's take on the industrial shmup (more so than DDP and Progear IMO)

really it's one of those games that took some of the best themes of old school shmupping and combined it with a great gameplay system (point blank, aggressive, gameplay), graphical style (even the character portraits are badass), and Raizing style music (I noticed it before I found out Raizing/8ing alum Namiki scored it)

I don't care what you fucks say, Ketsui deserves the praise it gets

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:57 pm

Ord wrote: average

It has the most blinding boss patterns ever. I mean, I never played it, just watched a couple of superplays... but some of those twisting, shifting, twirling bullet streams are just sick. It also seems to have a very intuitive scoring mechanism, as opposed to the memorizer chaining stuff in DDP, and seems to reward aggressive play. And the music... oh lord, the music.

It is one of the games I really, really want to play some day.EVEN ON THE DS IF THAT`S WHAT IT`S GONNA TAKE.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:04 pm

roker wrote:I don't care what you fucks say, Ketsui deserves the praise it gets

i can only agree, i think ive used up my whole vocabulary of positive words while describing ketsui in the past tho so i wont go on a rant about it again...

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:18 am

[sarcasm]
I love how IC's reviewer mentioned the numbered box system.
[/sarcasm]

The review is not just factually incorrect- it's also rather unthorough. There are more than a few other "significant differences". So he can single-credit to stage 3 on his first go. So what? That's only scratching the surface when there's another loop waiting on you when certain conditions are met.

Ketsui is not an easy game. The scoreplay isn't as exacting as Dodonpachi, but the bullet patterns hold up their end of the bargain. It definitely demands the dedication if you intend to score well and take out Doom.

segasonicfan · Post by **segasonicfan** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:04 pm

Writing a hatemail now. Who's with me?

-Segasonicfan

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:25 pm

segasonicfan wrote:Writing a hatemail now. Who's with me?

Save your breath... or at least energy from keystrokes.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:24 pm

onoz I 1cc'd Dodonpachi stage 4 on my first try omfg it must suck

I mean wow this guy beat stages 1 and 2 on his first try woah that must mean Ketsui is ez lol

Nakano · Post by **Nakano** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:31 am

shoe-sama wrote:onoz I 1cc'd Dodonpachi stage 4 on my first try omfg it must suck

I mean wow this guy beat stages 1 and 2 on his first try woah that must mean Ketsui is ez lol

I got to stage 3 in Guwange that must mean its also shit!

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:58 pm

Of course Ketsui gets easy in the first stages if you don´t try to score (which is obviously the case with our reviewer here). You´re not risking much this way. And missing the point entirely.

eight · Post by **eight** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:07 pm

Plus, that review is now years old, why are you guys still botherin'?

roker · Post by **roker** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:06 am

segasonicfan wrote:Writing a hatemail now. Who's with me?

-Segasonicfan

"I hate segasonicfan"

now where do I sent it to?

CHY · Post by **CHY** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:51 am

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP wrote:ketsui is the only reason i still play shmups

so do i.i like this words so much.
after all normal 2 loops,may be i will no longer playing stg games.my passion are all burning on ketsui.this year,i took bus about 1 hour to the game center each weekend .the only reason is KETSUI.
although i was playing galuda2,mushi1,ketsui is the best.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:08 am

roker wrote:
segasonicfan wrote:Writing a hatemail now. Who's with me?

-Segasonicfan
"I hate segasonicfan"

now where do I sent it to?

Ah, ha ha ha ha ha! That really made my day. (nothing against you, SS-Fan. It was just the spontaneity of the response that got me laughing myself silly.)

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:04 am

I wrote a review:

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/ketsui/

I took some liberties with namedropping people from this forum. If any one has issues with this, well...

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:15 am

icycalm wrote:I wrote a review:

http://insomnia.ac/reviews/custom/ketsui/

I took some liberties with namedropping people from this forum. If any one has issues with this, well...

Good review. The only part I had a problem with was this:

"What else can one compare to this? The Mushis are way too complicated; the Galudas are not only too complicated but also too easy; the Ibaras and Muchi Muchi Pork! rely on the most artificial scoring gimmick ever invented (i.e. rank-based medalling)"

You haven't played much Mushi Futari 1.5, have you? It plays very similarly to Ketsui (it's basically an expansion of the ketsui scoring system), and is actually not complicated at all. Also, Galuda 2 is far from easy. I've never heard anyone say it's easy (except you).

BTW there's an error in your Mushihime-tama review. You say those helpful bombs from Uo Poko aren't in the game. But actually they are --they drop down for your use, and in some stages they are in the actual stage patterns. I guess you didn't get far enough in the game to see them (??).

PS-For the record, I think Mushihime-sama Futari 1.5 is much better than Ketsui. Actually, I even prefer Mushihime-sama, Ibara Black Label, and Espgaluda 2 to Ketsui.

That's not to say Ketsui isn't a great game, of course.

PPS- You mention Valgar a few times in your review. The ironic thing is he is actually going to sell his Ketsui kit very soon because he doesn't think it's worth what it sells for, and he'd rather have the cash.

EDIT: He's just put his kit up for sale in the trading forum here.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:28 am

PS-For the record, I think Mushihime-sama Futari 1.5 is much better than Ketsui. Actually, I even prefer Mushihime-sama, Ibara Black Label, and Espgaluda 2 to Ketsui. That's not to say Ketsui isn't a great game, of course.

Like he said in his article, everyone is going to have their preference.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:30 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:[ Like he said in his article, everyone is going to have their preference.

Right, subjectivity. Gotta love it!

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:34 am

I would definitely not say that Futari is an extention of Ketsui's score system. There's a proximity effect yes, but that's as far as it goes, and it doesn't behave the same. Galuda 2's proximity effect is much closer to Ketsui's. In either of them, once the enemy is destroyed, where you stand is where your gems/chips are calculated. In Mushi, you have some leeway to keep getting closer (for big enemies anyway).

And yeah, Futari's scoring is way less complicated than Ketsui's. Ketsui's scoring system is 'deceivingly' easy. Easy to understand, difficult to master. ESPGaluda II's scoring system is coincidentally Cave's most complicated, while the first ESPGaluda is arguably the easiest... neck and neck with Mushi Futari if you ask me. And yeah, Galuda II is definitely not easy. We only have 3 ALLs (out of 22 posters) in the HS thread.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:40 am

GaijinPunch wrote:I would definitely not say that Futari is an extention of Ketsui's score system. There's a proximity effect yes, but that's as far as it goes, and it doesn't behave the same. Galuda 2's proximity effect is much closer to Ketsui's. In either of them, once the enemy is destroyed, where you stand is where your gems/chips are calculated. In Mushi, you have some leeway to keep getting closer (for big enemies anyway).

In Futari 1.5, for all the small enemies (and they make up the majority throughout the level), you have to be very close to them when they die in order to get max gems (it makes a huge difference in score, how do you think ISO got 540mil in original mode?). And the holding C and then quickly switching and holding A at the right moments--then switching back to C--, particularly in Maniac mode, is just like ketsui. Case in point: unlike most I played Ketsui after Futari 1.5 (well I played it like twice a year or so ago, but I didn't really know what I was doing), only played a dozen or so credits but basically sat down and played it pretty much like I play Mushi Futari, and I got near the end of stage 5 with 65mil without much trouble.

BTW Ibara Black Label is definitely tied with Galuda 2 for "Cave's most complicated scoring system" ever award.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:51 am

And the holding C and then quickly switching and holding A at the right moments--then switching back to C--, particularly in Maniac mode, is just like ketsui.

Or using your C shot to get to the top of the screen and then hammer incoming foes with the A shot in Mushi Arrange mode? Or hitting kakusei, detroying an enemy with the laser and quickly switching back to conserve gems in Espgaluda? It seems like all of cave's games have combinations of the same few ideas: Switching attack buttons, timing, and aggressive play. God I love cave.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:40 am

There is definitely not one single "different" scoring mechanism in a Cave game other than ESPRade. The rest all have something to do with either chaining or bullet cancelling (or both).

is just like ketsui.

I just don't feel Ketsui. The proximity thing has way less forte' in Futari. In Ketsui it's all there is. In Mushi Futari, it's only a bonus. I've seen people get 700-800 mil and mainly do it only on the big enemies.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:47 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
is just like ketsui.
I just don't feel Ketsui. The proximity thing has way less forte' in Futari. In Ketsui it's all there is. In Mushi Futari, it's only a bonus. I've seen people get 700-800 mil and mainly do it only on the big enemies.

I think the "ketsui feel" I have when I play Futari is more with how in Maniac mode you hold C and change to A when your chaining bar is red, in order to get larger gems, then you have to switch back to C after a few seconds and do it over again in small bursts throughout the level. It just reminds me of how the chains work in Ketsui.

You're right, the proximity thing has been done in Espgaluda and in Futari it probably isn't as important as Ketsui. But yeah, people can get 700-800 mil in Futari's Maniac mode without paying too much attention to proximity, but how did TAC do 1.04 Billion? And ISO's 540mil in Original mode? If you don't really do the proximity thing well, you'll be hard pressed to get near 300mil in Original mode, let alone 500mil. Proximity is more important than people think in Futari.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:40 am

Holding C with short bursts of A is how I play all Cave games (or games where A slows you down). I guess in that sense, they all feel the same to me.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:15 am

most of the point behind the whole New Games Journalism thing is to get people to think about game design.. not necessarily to review the videogame at hand. Whether or not you agree with their rambling is besides the point... it's whether or not you actually stop to think about the one or two main points in the design they bring up

I would like to go back to this chestnut. How are we supposed to learn about the design, when the review of the game is essentially a review of his grocery list from three weeks ago and an in-depth analysis of the title screen?

Macaw · Post by **Macaw** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:07 am

JoshF wrote:
most of the point behind the whole New Games Journalism thing is to get people to think about game design.. not necessarily to review the videogame at hand. Whether or not you agree with their rambling is besides the point... it's whether or not you actually stop to think about the one or two main points in the design they bring up
I would like to go back to this chestnut. How are we supposed to learn about the design, when the review of the game is essentially a review of his grocery list from three weeks ago and an in-depth analysis of the title screen?

MY REVIEW OF KETSUI:

Yesterday I was hungry, so I bought a chicken burger. It was okay, but there was not enough mayonnaise, more mayonnaise would have been better. Once I finished eating I went and played Ketsui, fun game.

Score: 9/10

MrMonkeyMan · Post by **MrMonkeyMan** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:52 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:I just don't feel Ketsui. The proximity thing has way less forte' in Futari. In Ketsui it's all there is. In Mushi Futari, it's only a bonus. I've seen people get 700-800 mil and mainly do it only on the big enemies.

But the loops in Ketsui are completely different. It can be safer to stay close to the enemies, but you'll get more points hugging the bottom of the screen and letting those suicide bullets pour out of the enemies.

It is lots of fun.