what makes a shmup unfair?

[kengou]

When do you consider a shmup 'unfair' and why? Fast bullets-slow ship? Bullet color blends in with background? Patterns too thick? Hitboxes too big?

[jpolz]

When the margin for error is so small that it takes the whole "skill" element out of the equation and you're survival is based on dumb luck.

[Vincere]

When the margin for error is so small that it takes the whole "skill" element out of the equation and you're survival is based on dumb luck.

Who said every level after 1-4 in Psykio games ??

[PROMETHEUS]

Also when survival is based strictly on knowledge, which also takes the skill element out of the equation.

Like when there's an instant beam coming across the screen that you could have easily avoided if you knew it was coming, but the first time you'll just die without any chance of dealing with it.

[kengou]

Who said every level after 1-4 in Psykio games ??

I literally was just credit-feeding Mars Matrix and Strikers 1945 II, and getting extremely frustrated after the 2nd level on each, before I came and posted this topic

[shinsage]

I can't think of a single shmup that was unfair.

Only Alien Hominid comes to mind with some scenes, and that's no shmup.

[ave]

I absolutely hate Konami's and Irem's "DIE AND YOUR OTHER LIVES WON'T HELP YOU ANYWAY!"-system. I like Gradius, XMULTIPLY and stuff, but their system that you lose all your weapons is just unfair in my opinion. Especially in Gradius with a slow ship in one of the later stages... thats not fair, thats shite.
Fortunately at least Gradius V has got re-collectable multiples.

[Shatterhand]

Yeah, I always remember in an MSX mailing list, in a certain discussion many people were bragging how they had 1 lifed all 3 Gradius games on MSX, until someone said the obvious

"1-lifing them it's easy... what would be a feat is to actually lose a life in level 4 or later and THEN finish the game"

[Rob]

I literally was just credit-feeding Mars Matrix and Strikers 1945 II,

These are fair.

Literally!

[FRO]

When the margin for error is so small that it takes the whole "skill" element out of the equation and you're survival is based on dumb luck.

Who said every level after 1-4 in Psykio games ??

Seconded.

[Pirate1019]

A game that tries to pass off "Broken" as "Difficult".

[shinsage]

"1-lifing them it's easy... what would be a feat is to actually lose a life in level 4 or later and THEN finish the game"

I don't get this -- I guess you're talking about some hard checkpoints?

I have some Gradius MSX games on that Saturn collection, I should try it out someday.

[stuminator]

I absolutely hate Konami's and Irem's "DIE AND YOUR OTHER LIVES WON'T HELP YOU ANYWAY!"-system. I like Gradius, XMULTIPLY and stuff, but their system that you lose all your weapons is just unfair in my opinion. Especially in Gradius with a slow ship in one of the later stages... thats not fair, thats shite.
Fortunately at least Gradius V has got re-collectable multiples.

Any game which strips you of necessary power ups and sends you back to a checkpoint with a 0.082% chance of progressing any further is total BS. That, and bullets that blend with background.

[szycag]

Exhibit A: Last Hope

[Nuke]

Suicide bullets/enemy ships. You know, those annoying 'lil buggars that come out of nowhere and take away your life before you actualy get the chance to see 'em.
I when't compleetly bonkers playing Section Z 'cause of 'em just now.

[Daigohji]

Bullets hidden by explosions annoy me. I'm looking at you, Ibara, my sweet.

[pixelcorps]

any shooter where it's obvious the designer has put no thought into the enemy and firing patterns, has no interest in being good at their own game, let alone actually playtesting it short of credit feeding it to see if it crashes.

see last hope.

[sfried]

No forewarning ahead. Games like Ikaruga to almost a majority of danmaku suffer from relying too much on prior memorization. Honestly, sometimes I appriciate the fact that they have indicators and warning signs, but I wish they used such indicators on shmups with fast scrolling obstacle courses (I put the blame mainly on Ikaruga's Third level). Ships popping out from behind would be another culprit.

Because of the whole deal of memorization, ,ost recent shmups make the learning curve way too steep for people unfamiliar with bullet hell patterns (I knew creamed first time playing Level 4 of Ikaruga). An obvious solution would be a ship that guides you through these patterns and sort of says "See, you can/can't do this." It could introduce people unfamiliar with hitboxes to the concept. I particularly blame ZUN for overreliance of senseless bulletspamming to create "gameplay".

I guess I'm more of an R-Type person.

[BulletMagnet]

Games like Ikaruga to almost a majority of danmaku suffer from relying too much on prior memorization.

...

I guess I'm more of an R-Type person.

Am I the only one hearing an alarm klaxon and seeing the message "Warning! A Large 'Irony' Is Approaching Fast!"?

[Specineff]

Weak weapons, and lack of speed control. I hate having to pick up Speed-up units if my little fighter is the last hope of the planet I'm fighting for.

[Andi]

Also when survival is based strictly on knowledge, which also takes the skill element out of the equation.

Like when there's an instant beam coming across the screen that you could have easily avoided if you knew it was coming, but the first time you'll just die without any chance of dealing with it.

I've played very few shooters where some element of memorization is not necessary. Basically, only Parsec47 and other partially random games come to mind.

[-Slayer-]

If the game happens to be Darius Gaiden, it's unfair.

I'm talking about the Uber unavoidable shots of same later bosses (I'm looking at YOU, Titanic Lance!).

[Twiddle]

If the game happens to be Darius Gaiden, it's unfair.

I'm talking about the Uber unavoidable shots of same later bosses (I'm looking at YOU, Titanic Lance!).

stop picking up too many red powerups

[zinger]

If the game happens to be Darius Gaiden, it's unfair.

I'm talking about the Uber unavoidable shots of same later bosses (I'm looking at YOU, Titanic Lance!).

stop picking up too many red powerups

And even more important, use autofire. If you have the right amount of powerups when reaching Titanic Lance, it will be easy to no miss no bomb with some practice (I've done it many times).

[tviks]

No game is unfair. Its just an excuse for noobiness.

[Shatterhand]

"1-lifing them it's easy... what would be a feat is to actually lose a life in level 4 or later and THEN finish the game"

I don't get this -- I guess you're talking about some hard checkpoints?

I have some Gradius MSX games on that Saturn collection, I should try it out someday.

If I am not mistaken, every Gradius game on MSX has only 2 checkpoints per level: Start of level or mid-level (I think longer levels may have another checkpoint closer to the boss)

Basically, after level 3 or 4 in each game, any mid-level checkpoint is friggin impossible. This was also true for Parodius on MSX. Salamander would be "friggin impossible" even if you had all weapons maxed out since start, hehe

- Obviously I am just over-exagerating, but indeed most mid-level checkpoints on those games are annoyingly hard. The ship is too damn slow and the power-ups are really scarce.

[shoe-sama]

No game is unfair. Its just an excuse for noobiness.

OMG I DIED THIS GAME IS UNFAIR LOL

[kengou]

There are games where it is literally impossible to survive certain sections unless you know exactly what is coming and where. In the later levels of Mars Matrix, if you don't use the bullet absorb thing at the right time and it's still powering back up when the enemies start shooting, you're friggin screwed because the patterns are simply too thick to dodge. Now, maybe you can memorize the exact right time to use that absorb thing so that you time it properly that it powers back up right when you need it, but that requires heavy memorization. Seems pretty unfair to me. It is possible I just suck and I'm missing something obvious, but there's also a few Psikyo games I've played that make it very hard to dodge the bullets, because the patterns are too thick and the bullets move too fast. Oh yeah, and Gradius V level 2, when that door closes so fast that if you didn't know you had to get to the other side, you're just going to die (and almost certainly that'll happen the first time), that's just unfair.

Theoretically, a fair game would be possible to 1cc on your first try, if you're good enough, because it gives fair warning of all of the bullets and patterns to give you at least a chance to dodge. For instance, as much memorization as Ikaruga requires, it is possible to 1cc on the first try if you're godlike at shooters. The bullets aren't incredibly fast and it gives you enough warning that you are able to dodge everything if you have fast enough reflexes.

[Kaiser]

There are games where it is literally impossible to survive certain sections unless you know exactly what is coming and where. In the later levels of Mars Matrix, if you don't use the bullet absorb thing at the right time and it's still powering back up when the enemies start shooting, you're friggin screwed because the patterns are simply too thick to dodge. Now, maybe you can memorize the exact right time to use that absorb thing so that you time it properly that it powers back up right when you need it, but that requires heavy memorization. Seems pretty unfair to me. It is possible I just suck and I'm missing something obvious, but there's also a few Psikyo games I've played that make it very hard to dodge the bullets, because the patterns are too thick and the bullets move too fast. Oh yeah, and Gradius V level 2, when that door closes so fast that if you didn't know you had to get to the other side, you're just going to die (and almost certainly that'll happen the first time), that's just unfair.

Theoretically, a fair game would be possible to 1cc on your first try, if you're good enough, because it gives fair warning of all of the bullets and patterns to give you at least a chance to dodge. For instance, as much memorization as Ikaruga requires, it is possible to 1cc on the first try if you're godlike at shooters. The bullets aren't incredibly fast and it gives you enough warning that you are able to dodge everything if you have fast enough reflexes.

I 1cc'ed steel dragon EX a few days ago on first try! Yep, though i'm not godlike at shooters

[shoe-sama]

There are games where it is literally impossible to survive certain sections unless you know exactly what is coming and where.

Sounds like every single old school shmup out there.

Which is why I get pwned like mad in those rofl.