Future STGT Guidelines (STGT '08 Rule Changes?)

RotateMe · Post by **RotateMe** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:18 pm

Maybe at a special week at the end of the tourney with non-emulated games for choice only. Some special price but doesn't count into overall ranking. I'd love to see that. Everything else is just not cool because [see the 99 reasons above].

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:51 pm

Danny wrote:I could do a short list as I have a truck load of them on my computer

Saying that Kenta Cho's games are generaly low maintance when it comes to resources and he has made a wide variaty of games over the past few years...

Same. I've got a bunch. Some good. Many...not so much.

It would be quite a sight to see somebody break one of Kenta Cho's games.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Fri May 18, 2007 9:45 pm

Danny wrote:Games that can't be emu'ed proberbly won't stand a chance in the voting process anyway

True enough, which is why this discussion isn't all that important. But there's one minor detail: that game would steal the slot of another game on the shortlist. Not a big deal, but maybe something to consider.

Danny wrote:Kenta Cho's games are generaly low maintance when it comes to resources

Not so much, actually. Using my trusty benchmark of crap (my old computer I bought in 2000), you'd have a better chance of running any Cave, Raizing, or Psikyo game in MAME than some Kenta Cho games. Granted, most people can probably run them just fine, but the system requirements might be higher than you think.

Not to derail the current topic, but you have to be careful with doujins. They're made by amateurs and usually aren't given much attention by the better players on this board, so scoring bugs might pop up.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:31 am

Davey wrote:
Danny wrote:Kenta Cho's games are generaly low maintance when it comes to resources
Not so much, actually. Using my trusty benchmark of crap (my old computer I bought in 2000), you'd have a better chance of running any Cave, Raizing, or Psikyo game in MAME than some Kenta Cho games. Granted, most people can probably run them just fine, but the system requirements might be higher than you think.

Not to derail the current topic, but you have to be careful with doujins. They're made by amateurs and usually aren't given much attention by the better players on this board, so scoring bugs might pop up.

That is quite true. Although a lot of the Kenta Cho games have been playtested to hell and back anyway due to the high score boards on these forums. Futher more you can actualy play some of the Kenta Cho games via other methods that are not PC like the Dreamcast or PSP I know for certain work fine. (although most people I think would just stick to the orignal PC port)

edit: I'll look in to it when I am less ill lol!

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat May 19, 2007 4:20 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that most of Kenta Cho's games are bug free. As for anything else...we'll see.

Note: It would also be much appreciated if the games considered if we have a doujin week supported gamepads.

Post by **Ghegs** » Sat May 19, 2007 7:52 pm

Pirate1019 wrote:Note: It would also be much appreciated if the games considered if we have a doujin week supported gamepads.

Anything supports gamepads with JoyToKey.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:03 pm

Ghegs wrote: Anything supports gamepads with JoyToKey.

Didn't work for me.

Post by **Ghegs** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:07 pm

Rob wrote:
Ghegs wrote: Anything supports gamepads with JoyToKey.
Didn't work for me.

The link or the program? For the former, just hit Google with "joytokey", that link is the second match. For the latter, it should work with pretty much everything since it just converts joystick input into keyboard (and mouse) input. A keyboard/mouse emulator, if you will.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:20 pm

I have it already. Buttons do work (can fire), d-pad for some reason does not. Makes for some really exciting games!

Post by **Ghegs** » Sat May 19, 2007 8:32 pm

Rob wrote:I have it already. Buttons do work (can fire), d-pad for some reason does not. Makes for some really exciting games!

That's odd. It works perfectly with my Saturn-style PS2 pad and a normal Dual Shock 2. Never had any problems.

Well, let's not get the thread too off-topic. Send me a PM if you want to try figuring it out.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sat May 19, 2007 10:57 pm

Ghegs wrote:
Pirate1019 wrote:Note: It would also be much appreciated if the games considered if we have a doujin week supported gamepads.
Anything supports gamepads with JoyToKey.

There might be some oddball exceptions, such as Gunroar in twinstick mode. You could use JoyToKey, but you'd lose some aim precision.

Anyway, gamepad usage is probably a non-issue for any worthwhile doujins, although some of them have odd button mapping that you can't change (e.g., Nomltest).

Rob wrote:Buttons do work (can fire), d-pad for some reason does not. Makes for some really exciting games!

Is Phoenix not exciting enough for you? There's just no pleasing some people.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sun May 20, 2007 3:07 pm

Davey wrote:Anyway, gamepad usage is probably a non-issue for any worthwhile doujins, although some of them have odd button mapping that you can't change (e.g., Nomltest).

Really? Nomltest's mapping seems fine on my pad. The two fire buttons are where X and Square would be on a PS2 pad.

Anyway!

My final choice is: Has to be emulated. No non-emu weeks. I guess it could be on an emulator other then MAME, but I would prefer it not so.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:18 pm

Icarus wrote:
Super Laydock wrote:I do not think those people who won´t bother installing Mame and running it properly will bother with those other emulators. But that´s not the point.
Point is that there´d at least be the chance/option for games outside of mame to be chosen. And then there´s always the chance of people owning the real thing, just like with the Mame games and pcb owners.
It just wouldn´t be an arcade only affair, or at least not by default.
... however, this idea that is being proposed is effectively removing something that has a possible 100% accessibility rate (anyone with a PC/Mac/XBox can get MAME, regardless of how slow your computer is), and adding something that has way less than 100% accessibility (not everyone has access to X unemulated game). Think of it this way: you have 50 people in the tournament, all with a PC. That's 50 people with possible MAME setups. However, in the vote Gradius 5 pops up and wins the vote, but only 25 people have the game. You're effectively stopping half the participants from joining in the playing week. See the problem?

Erm, not if we limit the choice to games on pre-playstation systems.
They´re all well emulated and no heavy system requirements either.
There are a lot of people still owning and playing these systems too.
But I agree Gradius V would be a bit of a problem... or anything beyond the 16-bit era for that matter.

I thought the point of picking the shortlist was to ensure that EVERYONE can participate on whatever format they have available.

Guess I was mistaken.

I love how you manage to dramatize this.

No you´re not mistaken, but this surely doesn´t rule out those pre playstation games as if mame is seen as accesible for everyone, than so should DreamNes or something be seen like that. Doujin can become a little trickier due to sometime (heavier than expected system requirements, especially for more recent doujins.)

but taking some of your other suggestions, how many people have Alzadick? Nexzr? The amount of available Carnival games are in the minority.

Yes, those games are indeed in the minority but I merely named them as examples of console only shmups that were fit for a for a competition.
It was the easiest, and most clear, example I could give. I am sure there are non carnival games that are console (or old computer) only which could be used for a competition.

If we're going to request non-arcade, we're better off going with doujin as there is a vast and more superior selection of competition-centric games available, both free and with the use of a pegleg and eyepatch (Arrr!).

But we'll take care of that when we get to it.

Yes, easy accessible Doujin should indeed be considered. As mentioned, they should not require too heavy specs though. And what about people who have a Mac? Shouldn´t we only have games that are available on both PC and Mac if we indeed want to ensure that EVERYONE can participate on a format available to them?

Super Laydock wrote:Why do I still enter? Because I think it´s fun participating. I am not one who can enter and even hope to win.
One can only try.

One will.

If only we had agreed to split the team and individual ranking tables into upper and lower tiers. -_-;;

I really wouldn´t understand the point of that.
The ranking table will divide itself in an upper and lower tier after a few weeks anyway.

Doing your best is fine, but it does require at least a little learning to get the best results. That is unavoidable, and no amount of "I suck!/I just want to have fun" can change that.

Can´t argue with that. Just like to keep it to a minimum.

Edge wrote: About Doujin games, ....[snap]...

Still I think it might work if we pick Doujin games, which offer a possible wide accessibilty (drivers, ressources, etc.). Though we might need someone with some more knowledge on this matter, who could help to get a shortlist of different doujin games. Laydock, Danny?

To be honest, I practically don´t play doujins anymore and haven´t done that too frequently in the past. In fact on my new computer I only have Cho Ren Sha and Broken Thunder installed.
So I can by no means be considered to have sufficient knowledge to make such lists.
Glad to hear that Danny has more knowledge though.
But maybe you could ask Postman (and yes I know he´s very busy - with that tournament and other things he´s doing) if he´d like to give some advice on that as well. If anyone´s got knowledge on this stuff, I´d say it´s him.

Also like I said above, what about mac users? Mame and emulators for about every old console/computer should be available for them too, but I think only a few doujins are both on mac and pc.

Last thing though: since I seem to be in the minority anyway on this giving non mame stuff a chance too, I see no point in making a big fuzz out of it.
If it is Mame only, then so be it. I´ll be there anyway.
Search for me in the lower tier.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:21 pm

Yeah thinking about it Postman would be the best person to ask about those type of games heh. Oh an I'll still ill...

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun May 20, 2007 9:25 pm

I've played a shitload of doujins, and in quite a few of them high scores are completely unrelated to dodging ability.

Cho Ren Sha, Warning Forever, Tumiki Fighters etc.

Taking a shitload of shield hits in Cho Ren Sha and still managing to score 17M+ isn't exactly my idea of dodging skill lol.

Not to say doujins in general are flawed or anything, it's just that sometimes their scoring mechanics are bleh. Something like Parsec47 is completely fine though.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sun May 20, 2007 10:23 pm

Pirate1019 wrote:
Davey wrote:Anyway, gamepad usage is probably a non-issue for any worthwhile doujins, although some of them have odd button mapping that you can't change (e.g., Nomltest).
Really? Nomltest's mapping seems fine on my pad. The two fire buttons are where X and Square would be on a PS2 pad.

It depends on how your operating system maps your gamepad's buttons. For example, using my PS to USB adapter, my HRAP stick maps like this:
7 4 1 8
5 3 2 6

My Saitek P880 mapped like this:
1 2 5
3 4 6

Nomltest is hard-coded to use buttons 1 and 2, which kinda sucks with the HRAP.

Hopefully that's straight-forward enough to avoid more thread derailment (my bad).

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:43 am

All games on shortlist emu compatible

QUESTION

Code: Select all

Reconsider doujins (Tap Postman for info & propose a doujin research project)

Moving this up because we're in a time crisis and the idea is popular.

Doujin week is cool if it's prepped right. But we may need to set minimum system (& OS) standards before choosing games based on tourney possibility. Danny, shoe-same, Laydock, and anybody else who'd want to at least begin gathering data on what should start being considered may be a good idea.

Postman is probably busy with Midwest Gaming Classic. He'll probably have more time after June 11?

so what should we consider first and in what order?

- Can people rattle off 5+ OLDER doujin games they seriously play for score that they couldn't exploit

- Find out reasonable MAME hardware requirements then find minimum hardware requirement lists for proposed games and compare.

- Test controller hardware options & configurations

- (Edge's) detailed careful evaluation of infinite milks & Compile-traits (read: too easy, dead zones, poor scoring mechs).

Another big-list-short-list system...just with system specs thrown in.

(week theme discussion pending) The idea is this could be researched until the 4th or 5th week. If a conclusive shortlist can be decided by one of those final weeks, we use the doujin week. If research can't be finished in time, we go with a public pre-decided alternate theme week choice.

If by some act of god research is done before the tourney starts..well...more power to everybody...

And of course, if research isn't finished in time, the homework will continue to be done for STGT '08.

Thoughts?

Oh yeah, this discussion does not at-all conclude that we're going to use doujin week. This is just about sending all volunteers to start gathering data so doujin week is at least possible.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:55 am

I immediately suggest that all possible games are at least Windows/Mac compatible.

How hard would it be to come up with a decent list of shmups linux compatible? Should that be considered? How many Linux users do we have?

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:58 am

I asked that once last year and no Linux users came forward

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:29 am

PC/Mac it is then!

Not being quite the freeware guru as others here, and certainly not being as knowledgeable on what makes a 'good' scoring system, at this time I can only recommend Kenta Cho's stuff. All of the games we would care about have Mac ports and the score systems aren't broken. I have a shitload of other freeware/doujin on my computer, but a lot of it is mediocre or is only a demo.

ChoRenSha?
+Very arcade-esque
+High Quality
+Supports gamepads without Joytokey
-No scoring system to note
Mac port?

NomlTest?
+Bullet Eating mechanic
+Supports gamepads without Joytokey
-No scoring system to note
Mac port?

Warning Forever?
+Low system requirements
+Evolving boss
+Gamepad support
+Score system (I think?)
-Possibly considered repetitive?
-Not a true scrolling shmup (possible problem?)
No Mac port

XOP? (shareware-made-freeware)
+Scoring system involving pickups that increase in value (Think Dangun)
+Gamepad support
+Choose two of 6 weapons weapons
-Probably way too easy unless the difficulty is cranked way up.
-Possible milking techniques(Maybe? I wouldn't be able to know.)
-Compile-esque
No Mac port

Personally I think that of those four, only Nomltest and ChoRenSha stand a chance. And that's if we can find Mac ports or if they can be played via windows emulators without steep system requirements. XOP will probably underwhelm everybody even on the highest difficulty. Or be so rediculously unfair (and call it more difficult) as to turn people away at the highest difficulty. People will most likely bitch about Warning Forever being a boss-only affair or about it being a 360-degree thing.

shiftace · Post by **shiftace** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:28 am

I probably won't participate this year, but I must object to the statement that Nomltest has "no scoring system to note." I think that means you just haven't tried hard enough (which is understandable; the game isn't real inviting). Yes, the whole scoring system is killing formations, maintaining the eat value, and eating all the bullets you can; but bullet eating gets real tricky, and I find that the limiting factor is my own attention. With actions > words and all, here's my high score input from a few months ago (goes in the default\ folder); I've figured out around a dozen new tricks since then, just haven't made a good run with them yet. I hope you'll agree that a significant scoring system exists.

Also, the recommended minimum system is Win98+ on a 300MHz Pentium 2 (yes, really). Probably no Mac port.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:03 am

Cho Ren Sha's scoring involves getting triple power ups (staying between three powerups) and boss and enemy milking. Most of the score comes from the triple power up + zanki bonus for remaining lives. With the shield powerup, it doesn't exactly emphasize dodging ability. Being able to triple powerup better can make up for crappy dodging skill.

NomlTest's scoring involves bullet eating and killing of entire enemy waves (think Darius style). Scoring quickly before rank starts to increase like mad is a good idea.

Warning Forever is bleh since there's only 1 good evolution path and this evolution path isn't very dodging oriented.

Motorherp · Post by **Motorherp** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:49 am

Rob wrote:I have it already. Buttons do work (can fire), d-pad for some reason does not. Makes for some really exciting games!

The d-pad can register as point of view switches with some pads. Go to the 'Others' tab on the right and select 'Use POV switches'. Then back in the 'Joysticks' tab configure the keys for 'POV1:UP', 'POV1:RIGHT', etc to be your movement keys. Thats should do it. Sorry for off-topic-ness.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Tue May 22, 2007 9:58 am

Right I am nearly back up to 100% so I can begin work on looking at my HD for decent doujin games.

Anyway about the PC > MAC thing you might want to try some software like Microsoft's Vitrual PC but I am not sure how good the thing is because I don't have a mac!

Motorherp · Post by **Motorherp** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:10 am

If you're looking for new doujin shooters there's plenty at my site from our previous development competition. Have a look here -> http://shmup-dev.com/af2k7/documents/24.html . Some are just demos but there's a few complete games in there too.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:48 am

OK here is a little list of games you might want to consider from me...

Z-Lock (Download)
Z-Lock is small vertical shoot-em-up made by the 'Hello World Project' which pits the player agasint hoards of enemies as per usual but with a bit of a twist. To get a decent score you will need to power up your weapon and to power up your weapon you need to let enemies lock on to your ship! This is a very intresting Risk vs Reward system that tests the players nerve and dodging skill while also testing your abality yo postition yourself in the best place for killing multiple enemies at once without moving.

+ Simple to understand and play
+ Intresting gameplay mechinics
+ Decent presentation
- The sound of the 'female announcer' can be slighty annoying
- Minimalistic visuals might turn off some
- Perhaps a bit to random later on in the game?
- No Mac port as far as I can tell and I am not sure how well it would work with a PC > MAC software

SCORE SOLDIER ~ WINTER FESTIVAL 2004 (Download)
Another game by the 'Hello World Project' again it's another vertical Shmup but this one is a little straight forward than Z-Lock. Simply put fly around blowing up various ships and collecting blue and red orbs. After destorying so many ships you will get a bonus. To score really big points though you wil be needing to use the second fire button to kill enemies. Now depending on how many red and blue orbs you have collected will determine the bullet partern you fire with the second button so advancing down the correct path could be essental for getting a hi-score. Futher more you have limited ammo with the second fire type so using it in the right place is also essental.

+ Simple gameplay mechinics relying on reflexes and combo's with 2nd fire button.
+ Decent Presentation (again).
+ It has an 'Endless' mode.
- Same visual style as Z-Lock.
- To my knowlage no Mac port.

Blue Wish Resurrection (Download)
Perhaps a little to 'new' to be considered in this thread but meh. Any game that blatantly rips off Ketsui while MAME is unable to emulate the game has got to be a good thing. Essentaly the player must go around blowing up ships while 'chaining' medals as quickly as they can without using as many bombs or shields as possble. Sounds simple to this game is though and it's very popular on the high score threads on this board at the moment and with good reason no less.

+ Great 'Ketsui' inspired gameplay which is simple to understand but hard to master
+ Fantastic presentation.
+ Some hidden ships once you 1cc the game.
- Some might be put of that it's a blatant 'Ketsui' clone
- Big Download considering...
- No Mac Port

That's it for now but I will post more soon...

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:09 pm

I know that Z-lock has a Mac port. According to this site anyway. It also has ports for several other games (some might not be shmups) a few of which are ABA games.

Edge · Post by **Edge** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:36 pm

I also would like to reccomend Parsec47 it plays pretty fast and is in a good way challening enough to last for one week for the top players. It hast also had a pretty active highscore thread in this forum.

Danny · Post by **Danny** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:38 pm

Edge wrote:I also would like to reccomend Parsec47 it plays pretty fast and is in a good way challening enough to last for one week for the top players. It hast also had a pretty active highscore thread in this forum.

Was going to recommend Parsec47 and Tumiki Fighters as my 4th and 5th choices, great minds must think alike!

edit: I'll go in to them in more detail later...

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:40 pm

Can I suggest the shmup made by myself, "Space Disorder" ?

hehe