Future STGT Guidelines (STGT '08 Rule Changes?)

[GaijinPunch]

yet there was a bit of controversy in the last week of the tournament regarding it.

Yeah... the internet is a pathetically sad place at times.

[Rob]

What was the controversy on Guwange week? I don't remember it.


And so my post doesn't get lost at the bottom of the last page:

How about people who want to make their vote public can do that and people who want to make their vote private send them through PM?

[GaijinPunch]

What was the controversy on Guwange week? I don't remember it.

I think it had to do w/ people scoring high, and a few tossers questioning their scores. I could be wrong though. Drama generally bounces off me. You should how often I blow off my wife.

[Rob]

Checked out the thread and remembered. Poor Shocky.

[DJ Incompetent]

How about people who want to make their vote public can do that and people who want to make their vote private send them through PM? People could guess what they'd like from the public votes, but it wouldn't be the entire picture. That'd be a fair compromise.

*shrugs* Why not.


So where we're at is we run public votes as we did in STGT '06 by posting in the thead. In-addition, users can choose to cast their vote via PM to username "STGT". Private and public votes will be revealed the way they always are at the end in the first post. I'll make a note to show proofs the private votes were actually cast.

Any objections?

[Pirate1019]

Sounds good to me.

[Icarus]

OBJECTION!!!

... naah, just kidding.

While I have my reservations about a combined voting system, the only way we can see if the benefits outweigh the downsides is to test it out. So yeah, go for it, if it doesn't work, it can always be shelved.

[Pirate1019]

if it doesn't work, it can always be shelved.

Isn't that how we're figuring out everything with STGT?

Trial and Error FTW.

[Davey]

The surprise would be more fun and there would be less people afraid to vote for a losing game (which of course assures fewer and fewer votes for it).

I agree 110%. But I guess at this point it doesn't matter, since most people will probably vote publicly anyway.

I think the comedy of the voting thread is seriously overestimated. People will find other areas of the comp. to toss pics up. Voting is one thing that should just be efficient, honest, clear, etc. above anything else.

Yeah I don't find the voting threads funny at all. Such is the sorrow of being born without sense of humor.

[DJ Incompetent]

We run public votes as we did in STGT '06 by posting in the thead. In-addition, users can choose to cast their vote via PM to username "STGT". Private and public votes will be revealed the way they always are at the end in the first post. I'll make a note to show proofs the private votes were actually cast.

QUESTION

Code: Select all

MAME vs Ports/PCB in shortlisting (challenge MAME-centric)

We have people who demand titles that aren't emulated and got a few people that just don't want mame. Lets give them a chance. A small chance.

I propose for every themed week, 1 of the 5 shortlisted games is not emulated. It is up to the voters to make sure the non-MAME game actually wins.

Agree, disagree, or change the frequency of non-emu games to emu games? 2of5, 1of6, 2of6, etc.

[Rob]

It is not hard to download and figure out MAME within an hour. It is hard (and costs money, obviously) to acquire a non-emulated game with time enough to compete in a week.

Almost every shooter is commercially available to begin with, so what happened? Multiple games had console ports last comp. Why would this be any different for them?

NO. Learn MAME, people.

[Super Laydock]

QUESTION

Code: Select all

MAME vs Ports/PCB in shortlisting (challenge MAME-centric)

We have people who demand titles that aren't emulated and got a few people that just don't want mame. Lets give them a chance. A small chance.

I propose for every themed week, 1 of the 5 shortlisted games is not emulated. It is up to the voters to make sure the non-MAME game actually wins.

Agree, disagree, or change the frequency of non-emu games to emu games? 2of5, 1of6, 2of6, etc.

Totally agree on having at least 1 (but preferably 2 non-mame game up for voting. If not enough people own the game or have other means (other emus) to play the game, the problem will sort itself out and another game will get elected.
It does offer a chance to enter some console/computer only games in the voting competition as well. It´s definitely not so that EVERY game worth playing and competing over has originated in the arcades or is well emulated in mame.
Just like there are people now having trouble with their computers not being up to run every game in mame at full speed or people don´t want Mame and roms (security reasons I can imagine) on their computer, there´ll always be people not having the means to play these console only games. But Like I said the problem will sort itself out at the voting.

[Rob]

It does offer a chance to enter some console/computer only games in the voting competition as well.

Name one that isn't emulated and has a good scoring system.

Just like there are people now having trouble with their computers not being up to run every game in mame at full speed or people don´t want Mame and roms (security reasons I can imagine) on their computer,

These people should've played a comp. more suitable for them, like Nemo's.

[Icarus]

｢(ﾟﾍﾟ)

｢(ｰﾍー; )

o(*≧□≦)o いいえ! いいえ! いいえ!

I understand the reasons for adding non-emulated games, and to be honest, I'd quite like to see stuff like G-Darius and Psyvariar in the tournament. However, there is a need for a lot of pre-planning and investigation either in the shortlisting stages, or well before that, to find out what the most widespread console games are, and whether or not they fit the bill (arcade perfect, scoring bugs etc). To do this you would have to survey people based on the proposed themes, such as Taito Week (G-Darius, Raystorm, Raycrisis etc), Seibu Week (Raiden DX) and so on. There is absolutely no way in hell I'd want to play TFV or any other console-only shootemup in a tournament, because IMO none of them really match up in scoring depth to an arcade shooter. It'd be like playing Star Force for 12 weeks. *shudder*

Unless you're willing to do the extra legwork, keep the tournament as accessible as possible by using MAME. Remember that STGT '06 was done on the fly and we all weren't expecting it to be MAME-centric, but it worked to provide complete accessibility - those with PCBs/console ports used them, those without used MAME. Switching it around drops the accessibility of the tournament right down. People know what to expect now in terms of accessibility. For a tournament of this nature, I don't think there is any other acceptable choice.

No. I vote against this motion.

[Rob]

There should be a XII Stag week.

[Super Laydock]

It does offer a chance to enter some console/computer only games in the voting competition as well.

Name one that isn't emulated and has a good scoring system.

Defining a "good scoring system" would depend very much on personal taste. Not everyone is in favor of complex scoring systems which they´d have to figure out whole week to get a decent score. Some people just want to dodge, shoot the most and survive the longest they can.
I for one hate to have to figure out a whole new scoring system every week, since I just want to get in and play for fun. And though it is a competitive event, it´s main objective is to have fun with the games together, right!? (I figure I´ll get a reply with a big "no", from more than 1 person on this as I know not everyone agrees here)

And emulated is more than alone MAME, shmups like Recca or other Caravan type games are non-MAME and are totally made with tournaments/competition in mind. There are emulators for other machines than arcade ones too, you know.

These people should've played a comp. more suitable for them, like Nemo's.

But this would at least give those people and the non mame games a chance. If the majority of the participants isn´t able to play to or simply doesn´t want it then the game just won´t get chosen.
It´s the majority of the participants who can decide here if this is a game suitable enough for the tournament.
It would still be only 1 or 2 out of 5 picks, and there´d be plenty left for you and other Mame-ers to choose out of.
Why deny other people their chance to get what they want? What´s to loose?

[Rob]

Why deny other people their chance to get what they want?

I'd rather take part in a real competition where every game is available to everyone instead of taking breaks for people who want to play Blazing Lazers 'cause it's "fun".

Defining a "good scoring system" would depend very much on personal taste.

I think you know what I mean!

[Super Laydock]

I'd rather take part in a real competition where every game is available to everyone instead of taking breaks for people who want to play Blazing Lazers 'cause it's "fun".

And since when are other emulators unavailable to everyone!?
And I colored the crucial part in you post as well.
You are only 1 of the big group of participants, and while you may well be 1 of the most talented players in the compo, it´s not only you who can decide what´s to be played or not. That´s why there´s the vote. If enough people agree with you, you get it your way. If not, then you´ll have to settle with what´s chosen by the majority.

Learn OTHER EMUS, Rob.

Defining a "good scoring system" would depend very much on personal taste.

I think you know what I mean![/quote]

Yes I know what you mean. I just do not necessarily agree with you on what is a good scoring system and what isn´t.
And can you please tell me what would be wrong with a game like Recca, Nexzr or the likes?

[Rob]

Learn OTHER EMUS, Rob.

Which ones are you thinking of? I definitely don't think it should be just MAME, as the record shows I was hoping for some doujin shooters last time.

Oh yeah and people with MAME troubles: upgrade your computer!

[Icarus]

Put it this way, Laydock. If someone is not going to go to the effort to get MAME up and running, what makes you think they'll get Magic Engine or ZSNES up and running instead?

As for your "Recca, Nexzr etc" comment: the difference between them and decent arcade games are score systems that focus on good scoring throughout the game. Nexzr doesn't even have a score system (and no, Carnival Mode does not count), and Recca's is kinda borked. Anything from that era epitomises long survival as their "score system", and I don't know about you, but I get really freaking annoyed having to sit there for 2hr+ on one credit. If a game isn't immediately challenging and engaging, I don't even want to know.

Also...

I for one hate to have to figure out a whole new scoring system every week, since I just want to get in and play for fun. And though it is a competitive event, it´s main objective is to have fun with the games together, right!?

So why enter the tournament, then? That's essentially what you'll be doing regardless of what gets selected. -_-;;

[Super Laydock]

Which ones are you thinking of? I definitely don't think it should be just MAME, as the record shows I was hoping for some doujin shooters last time.

Nothing specific I was thinking of. There are tons of emulators out there and people could choose whichever they want or get advised to by others.

And I think there was some misunderstanding on my part about you only wanting mame. I stand corrected.

Put it this way, Laydock. If someone is not going to go to the effort to get MAME up and running, what makes you think they'll get Magic Engine or ZSNES up and running instead?

I do not think those people who won´t bother installing Mame and running it properly will bother with those other emulators. But that´s not the point.
Point is that there´d at least be the chance/option for games outside of mame to be chosen. And then there´s always the chance of people owning the real thing, just like with the Mame games and pcb owners.
It just wouldn´t be an arcade only affair, or at least not by default.

As for your "Recca, Nexzr etc" comment: the difference between them and decent arcade games are score systems that focus on good scoring throughout the game. Nexzr doesn't even have a score system (and no, Carnival Mode does not count), and Recca's is kinda borked. Anything from that era epitomises long survival as their "score system", and I don't know about you, but I get really freaking annoyed having to sit there for 2hr+ on one credit. If a game isn't immediately challenging and engaging, I don't even want to know.

I was just pointing out that there are games outside of arcade games that we´re specifically made for competition. And since they´re made for that i can´t see why we couldn´t compete in them.
And for the record, I´d be glad to be able to sit & play 2+ hours on 1 credit.
Good value for money in the arcade, and good for my confidence (before I look at other peoples scores that is ).

Also...

I for one hate to have to figure out a whole new scoring system every week, since I just want to get in and play for fun. And though it is a competitive event, it´s main objective is to have fun with the games together, right!?

So why enter the tournament, then? That's essentially what you'll be doing regardless of what gets selected. -_-;;

Maybe "hating" was overstating it a little, but disliking it I seriously do.
Why do I still enter? Because I think it´s fun participating. I am not one who can enter and even hope to win. I just want to do my best and see where it all ends. And I´d rather do that "mindlessly" shooting and dodging than otherwise.
Some games are just fun to play without having to watch for chaining, complex combo´s and the sort of stuff all the time. Other´s can only really be enjoyed maximally if you understand a complex system

[MX7]

Oh yeah and people with MAME troubles: upgrade your computer!

This costs WAY more than tracking down something fairly cheap like mushi.

I agree to some extent about the comments about scoring systems, but there's no denying that with a similar investment in time and natural abilities, somthing like recca, gradius or cho ren sha will produce enough differences in scores to make an interesting, multi tiered championship.

Innit.

[Icarus]

I do not think those people who won´t bother installing Mame and running it properly will bother with those other emulators. But that´s not the point.
Point is that there´d at least be the chance/option for games outside of mame to be chosen. And then there´s always the chance of people owning the real thing, just like with the Mame games and pcb owners.
It just wouldn´t be an arcade only affair, or at least not by default.

... however, this idea that is being proposed is effectively removing something that has a possible 100% accessibility rate (anyone with a PC/Mac/XBox can get MAME, regardless of how slow your computer is), and adding something that has way less than 100% accessibility (not everyone has access to X unemulated game). Think of it this way: you have 50 people in the tournament, all with a PC. That's 50 people with possible MAME setups. However, in the vote Gradius 5 pops up and wins the vote, but only 25 people have the game. You're effectively stopping half the participants from joining in the playing week. See the problem?

I thought the point of picking the shortlist was to ensure that EVERYONE can participate on whatever format they have available.

Guess I was mistaken.

I was just pointing out that there are games outside of arcade games that we´re specifically made for competition. And since they´re made for that i can´t see why we couldn´t compete in them.
And for the record, I´d be glad to be able to sit & play 2+ hours on 1 credit.
Good value for money in the arcade, and good for my confidence (before I look at other peoples scores that is ).

Yes, granted there are the Carnival games like Recca which is available on an NES emulator, but taking some of your other suggestions, how many people have Alzadick? Nexzr? The amount of available Carnival games are in the minority.

If we're going to request non-arcade, we're better off going with doujin as there is a vast and more superior selection of competition-centric games available, both free and with the use of a pegleg and eyepatch (Arrr!).

But we'll take care of that when we get to it.

Why do I still enter? Because I think it´s fun participating. I am not one who can enter and even hope to win.

One can only try.

I just want to do my best and see where it all ends. And I´d rather do that "mindlessly" shooting and dodging than otherwise.
Some games are just fun to play without having to watch for chaining, complex combo´s and the sort of stuff all the time. Other´s can only really be enjoyed maximally if you understand a complex system

If only we had agreed to split the team and individual ranking tables into upper and lower tiers. -_-;;

Doing your best is fine, but it does require at least a little learning to get the best results. That is unavoidable, and no amount of "I suck!/I just want to have fun" can change that.

[freddiebamboo]

The last thing we need is more games with no scoring systems to get picked.

Just mame or with a couple of PS2 ports thrown in would be fine.

[shoe-sama]

It could be worse.

There could be uh... games with no score at all.

[Pirate1019]

both free and with the use of a pegleg and eyepatch (Arrr!).

I am pirate!

Change MAME-centric to EMULATOR-centric and nobody should have a problem. Although if a game without a scoring system gets voted then so help me god, I'm burning down somebody's house down.

[Davey]

Games with faithful ports should get preference over MAME-only games, but any shortlist game should be in MAME (or some other emulator).

It's pretty redundant at this point, but:
1.) How many of use can use MAME? Maybe not everybody, but well over 90% I bet. I highly doubt there's a single console game that 90% of us own.
2.) Voting ends Sunday. Scoring starts Monday. If you don't own the game at the time voting ends, you'd be lucky to get a copy before the week ends. These aren't games you can just pick up at your neighborhood Best Buy, nor should people be expected to fork over cash to play a game they might not even like just for an internet tournament.

Oh yeah and people with MAME troubles: upgrade your computer!

This costs WAY more than tracking down something fairly cheap like mushi.

Not everybody has a modded or Japanese PS2. Or Mushi. Last I checked, these things aren't cheap.

Unless your computer is more than 5 years old, it should be able to handle pretty much all MAME shmups no problem. Even if it is that old, it can still handle lots of stuff.

Anybody that has enough disposable income to import console shmups can probably afford to buy a decent used laptop on eBay if it really came to that.

[Danny]

This is what I think (oh dear he's thinking again ) games that can be emulated perfectly should be given a shot, games that can be emulated and have an decent port proberbly should get prefrance. Games that can't be emu'ed proberbly won't stand a chance in the voting process anyway but I am agasint the idea of putting a game in the shortlist just because it's not been emulated properly yet.

edit: If there are people having trouble getting MAME32 working then try this thread!

[Edge]

1.) How many of use can use MAME? Maybe not everybody, but well over 90% I bet. I highly doubt there's a single console game that 90% of us own.

This one pretty much sums my thoughts on this matter.

The reason why the previous tournament was MAME-centric was too ensure accessiblity for (almost) everyone. But no matter how popular or wide spread some games like Gradius V are, I still would be surprised if more than 50% of the participants owns this particular game. So the choice of a non emulated game would force a lot of players to not enter a week and hurting their single player rankings. Further it wouldn't even be guaranteed that every team had at least 3 players owning this game.

I agree that for accessibility SNES or MD games are just as good and easy emulated as MAME. But most console only games have serious scoring bugs, unbalanced difficulty or cheap milking technics. That's why I didn't shortlist any in STGT'06. Though I wouldn't generally rule all console only games out, just I had to be very careful which ones could be picked to make for a good competition for 1 week.

And I think with the selection of games MAME offers, we have enough variety of different shooting games. I agree that on the shortlist we could try to get also games which are available in MAME and have a console port. This way we rule certain games out, like the newest Cave games for example. But we ensure a possible high participation rate, which should have a higher priority.

About Doujin games,
I would like to have a Doujin week too, there are a lot of good and pretty hidden free doujin games. I would find it very interesting to have a week which would encourage people to be more open minded for these games. Also they would greatly add to the variety of the tournament. The only downside is, a doujin game might not work on everyones PC as they aren't that well tested like MAME. Still I think it might work if we pick Doujin games, which offer a possible wide accessibilty (drivers, ressources, etc.). Though we might need someone with some more knowledge on this matter, who could help to get a shortlist of different doujin games. Laydock, Danny?

[Danny]

I could do a short list as I have a truck load of them on my computer

Saying that Kenta Cho's games are generaly low maintance when it comes to resources and he has made a wide variaty of games over the past few years...