Future STGT Guidelines (STGT '08 Rule Changes?)

[Pirate1019]

There will be no hidden gem week.

What was the hidden gem game again? Air Gallet? Personally I prefer that to Star Force and anything akin to it.

On Topic: I like the idea developing about the nominations then somebody tracking/listing all of them and then him or a committee shortlisting them.

One problem: Don't we need to know what the week themes are to make nominations?

[DJ Incompetent]

How would danny go about doing his job though? Would he create a topic for nominations to put on the biglist and then just ask people for opinions/concerns on the games and then he would edit the first post of the thread to show the pros/cons of each game? That's what I thought of after reading DJI's post. So would he decide which games got shortlisted or would you use a committee? Maybe Danny, DJI, and Edge? Or switch one of them out and put Super Laydock in?

No creating more topics. Just use a 2nd thread dedicated to week themes and game selection, assuming Edge wants to go forward with the double threads idea, which I think would work this time.

The big-list short-list thing would not be used every week. Only in weeks where the number of games that could suit the theme are potentially very large. In last year, it coulda only been really used for Hidden Gem and Retro weeks. Also, we wouldn't be screening for pros. Only cons. The forum is exceptional at looking for cons. ^_-

I'd probably run the biglist shortlist thing at least the first time. With only 5 themes, it probably wouldn't be used much more than that.

Sorry Rob, but I am not available as well.

Super Laydock says he can't play; maybe he has time to run a few google searches.

Hey, I´d be honored to help out, but I never said I couldn´t play (well can´t remember saying that anyway).

My bad. I interpreted poor.

Also I think having two separate leagues (major and minor leagues? or is that to much like baseball!? ) is a good idea. It will give players who are not all that confident in there skills more insentive to enter and continue playing in the tourney as they will be amongst people of roughly there own skill. Then again I might be wrong or echoing stuff that's already been said so I'll shut up...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... &start=133
We decided against it already. Sorry mang. -_-

Edit: Also when it comes to submitting games for the tourney (I am thinking more "hidden gems" here!) you might want to see what changes have been made to the game since it's been released on MAME. Recently I entered another hi-score tourney and Robotron was selected but due to it being emulated differently on newer versions of MAME we had to make sure that users were using an up to date version because apparently there were some considerable differences between new and old versions even though I could not notice them myself but it was a big enough of an issue for some to make a big thing out of it.

oi...I dunno. With the number of emulator versions and variants available, that sounds about next-to-impossible to pre-screen for. Wouldn't it? At least upon discovery, people can just say "hey, use this emu, not that emu" without ending the week.

The week themes for the STGT need to be discussed before the actual tournament starts. So maybe we should have a thread where you can suggest themes and games for each theme and write an opinion about a game or state scoring bugs or other problems in those games. The first post of this thread could have a daily updated list of all recommendations and some infos on it: Does port exists, known score problems, # of HS table entries, position in the annual vote. .... or something alike.

Alright Edge, here's what I'm thinkin'. The full-fledged committee thing may be a bit much, and forcing its use may complicate or slow your process down. "Keep it simple" right?

I propose:

Launch Two Threads:
Main Thread - Started by Edge
FIRST
- Serves as player registration and team roster arrangements
- Formally stays as the main hub thread by which all other STGT '07 threads are linked to.
LATER
- Thread used for all STGT '07 formal announcements, new scoring/voting/results thread notices, any other general stuff, etc.
- people submit and discuss STGT banners, team & player sigs, and other user-submitted art for thread headings

Second (Week Themes) Thread - Started & Maintained by DJI or Edge
FIRST
- Discuss and decide what 5 game themes to use this year. (You decide what week themes are final)
LATER
- Instead of a concrete committee, all tourney participants may post their own 5-game shortlists for any themed week they choose.* I maintain a loose tally on what games are being suggested most. This is to help sway your choices in more popular directions.
- For week themes with a very large scope of possible game choices, I open another big-list-short-list listing and encourage players to again pick-apart all possible games that would not work in tournament play.

Super Laydock and Danny stay on standby if you Edge choose to assign them particular things about games to search for, like scoring bugs, uneven game mechanics, etc. You may use them, you may not.

*This way, the community now serves as "the committee" and you have two other guys to call on for research or opinion if you think there's too many games to research in a short amount of time or you need to trust in people to ask what 6-7 shortlisted games they would cut down to 5, etc. You said it anyway there was no real good way to have a full active committee. Using only knowledgeable players that aren't playing doesn't sound feasible.


Now I wait for replies. This ok with you, Edge?
Feel free to PM me also if anything should be discussed in private 'n such.


For the record, I have only one more of the front page questions I really want to get into about shortlists and mame, then the rest of the thread we can consider ended and go on everything we successfully discussed already. That's cool to open the registration thread as early as you need, as long as the actual voting week 1 starts in the time we already designated.

[Edge]

Sounds good to me. I think if you keep track of the Week/theme discussion thread and I handle the regsistration thread we can efficiently split the work.

And I will make sure to pm Danny and Super Laydock to discuss and finalize game short listings. Esspecially useful for non developer based weeks.

I think we should open the theme discussion thread maybe one week before the registration thread. So when the main thread appears the themes have already be chosen and people know what they are signing up for.

[Danny]

oi...I dunno. With the number of emulator versions and variants available, that sounds about next-to-impossible to pre-screen for. Wouldn't it? At least upon discovery, people can just say "hey, use this emu, not that emu" without ending the week.

I don't mean with the big list perhaps with the short list when there are only 6 or so games. But yeah thinking about it now if say a Neo Geo game get's selected then it might be a bit of a problem heh!

By the way I am contactable though PM and E-mail or MSN pretty much everyday. I may not post everyday but that does not mean I am not still reading threads, it just means I have nothing relevent to add to them!

[Icarus]

This two-thread system sounds like it could work. At the very least it'll stop the thread ballooning to 40+ pages like the last one. And both Edge and DJI will be happy that there'll be a couple more hands to deck to help organise. ^_-

I think we should open the theme discussion thread maybe one week before the registration thread. So when the main thread appears the themes have already be chosen and people know what they are signing up for.

Sounds like a good idea. I'd assume both themes and potential shortlisted games will be based on the MAME-centric criteria again for wide accessibility? If so, you might want to make a note of that when opening the registration thread so that there's no confusion this time.

[Danny]

I think we should open the theme discussion thread maybe one week before the registration thread. So when the main thread appears the themes have already be chosen and people know what they are signing up for.

Yeah sounds good. That way I guess people can't complain so much about the choice of games that way.

[Danny]

Oh I have just released a lot of (well OK not that many but definatly a few) people still have troubles getting MAME32 to work. I'm proberbly going to do a step by step guide on getting it all set up this weekend. Hopefuly this will reduce people not turning up in some of the weeks.

[freddiebamboo]

I've also heard of problems with newer versions of mame32.

wolfmame 0.99 is popular on the board right now and teams can swap inp's about if they all use the same version of mame.

[Icarus]

Since the committee thing seems to be nicely sorted, I'm bumping and jumping to the next question...

Code: Select all

Change voting rules entirely to private or attempt to perfect our current public method.
Subquestion: approve revised "In-Case Shit"

... and putting down a big HELL NO on changing the voting to private. Guessing the shortlist; team voting strategy; and the drama that accompanies the voting week were the best parts of the tournament. Moving to private takes the fun out of it.

Therefore:



I dunno about improving the "in-case of..." clauses however. I think they were fine as they are.

[Rob]

Private - the chosen game would be more of a surprise, less chance to practice before the week starts.

[Pirate1019]

Public voting seconded. Interweb drama. huzzah!

[Rob]

Public voting seconded. Interweb drama. huzzah!

I guarantee not to say anything about voting, so there will be no drama!

Private. The surprise would be more fun and there would be less people afraid to vote for a losing game (which of course assures fewer and fewer votes for it).

[freddiebamboo]

Public please, we just need a sensible shortlist of games for it to work.

[DJ Incompetent]

Thank you. My kitchen is kinda...sorta....erm....dripping into my basement -_-;;;;


Pretty black or white issue.

Do we want voting in public shortlist vote threads exactly like STGT '06?

Or do we want a method of private (probably PM) voting for the shortlists?

Both styles of voting would be based on the exact publically known 5-choice shortlists per week.

Public:
+more lively, social, suspenseful, and a smidge of entertaining drama
+early heads up on what files to scout & download
-people can count results early, then alter their voting habits, radically changing "what could have been"
-Allows a short time for early practice, depending on landslides.

Private:
+Forces the most honest votes
+discourages early game practice
-far less social and less eventful
-voting depends on 100% trust on organizers (& non-maxed PM inboxes) (fewer checks & balances)



for the record, I vote for Public. I liked the atmosphere of the socializing, propaganda, and fox news commentary. p-shopping is always funny.

Code: Select all

Subquestion: approve revised "In-Case Shit"

All I really needed to add was that I would examine context of when people quickly changed their votes far from the deadline before disqualifying everybody. I bet I was kinda an over-dick on that in the name of fairness. I was assuming to do this. I just wanted to make sure if anybody had anything to add or object to.

[Rob]

+early heads up on what files to scout & download

Should take a few minutes max.

Voting doesn't need to be an "event," seriously. There's a week of playing, results, talk of the following week's theme and whatever else.

[Edge]

I think both voting systems have it's fair pros and cons. But how would you go with doing the private votes, technically?

hmm... everyone sending a pm would kill your inbox... Maybe a team captain could tally all votes from his teammembers and then you'd only get pms from the captains. For tranaparency all voters data could then be postet with the voteresults.

That said I am not really sure if private votes would turn out better. A good point is people wouldn't vote strategical and therefore not avoid the losing horse. But maybe it is better to go with public voting, for the socializing aspect and the possibilty to vote strategically isn't too bad.

[Rob]

I think both voting systems have it's fair pros and cons. But how would you go with doing the private votes, technically?

1. maybe create a separate account and name it "STGT07" or something (to not clutter a personal inbox)
2. people pm with their vote IN THE PM SUBJECT to make it easy

Were there 50+ votes a round? I can't remember. But it'd be easy to check, tally and delete a group before 50 is hit.

This method would also eliminate having to go through pages of a thread and potentially miss votes sandwiched between irrelevant posts. (Remembers a certain recount, recount, recount.)

[Danny]

Perhaps you could have a mixture of both puplic and private. I will explain...

Say people vote by PM and you count the posts. Midweek you could post a little hint of how well games are doing like this...

Total Suckage Week (please note this is not an actual suggestion for a theme )
1) B-Wings
2) Ghost Pilots
3) Darwin 4078
4) Funky Bee
5) S.S Mission

Notice that the amount of votes are not shown so B-Wings could be winning by a lot or not by much at all. This way sw still get to keep all the drama from the puplic voting system while still having some element of superise in the final outcome.

This is proberbly a poor idea since it might up your work load and not to mention the whole "to many PM's in my inbox" situation but it still might be worth considering.

[Icarus]

This method would also eliminate having to go through pages of a thread and potentially miss votes sandwiched between irrelevant posts. (Remembers a certain recount, recount, recount.)

The recount was the most entertaining part of the Cave Week voting period, it added a bit of suspense and a lot of comedy to a highly anticipated week, especially considering that the vote was a lot closer than it was in previous voting weeks. While I agree that moving to private eliminates the need for a recount and potential drama, STGT wouldn't be a social event if it wasn't for the comedy that occurs.

The other thing about public voting is that many can keep track of the vote. While I have no doubts about the honesty and integrity of the organisers, private voting may or may not work due to the fact that people might not believe that X game was really voted by the participating members, causing many possible disagreements. (Would you honestly believe that Star Force was the selected Retro Week game if it was put in a private vote?)

Public voting ensures that all voting results are visible and fair.

[Rob]

private voting may or may not work due to the fact that people might not believe that X game was really voted by the participating members, causing many possible disagreements. (Would you honestly believe that Star Force was the selected Retro Week game if it was put in a private vote?)

It would be very easy to list who voted for what after the voting is complete. PrtSc the inbox, one way.

I think the comedy of the voting thread is seriously overestimated. People will find other areas of the comp. to toss pics up. Voting is one thing that should just be efficient, honest, clear, etc. above anything else.

[Icarus]

It would be very easy to list who voted for what after the voting is complete. PrtSc the inbox, one way.

I think the comedy of the voting thread is seriously overestimated. People will find other areas of the comp. to toss pics up. Voting is one thing that should just be efficient, honest, clear, etc. above anything else.

You can shop a PrtScrn very easily.
Public votes are already efficient and visible, and more than one person can tally if the organisers are busy or something.

As for drama, well, drama follows everything and appears everywhere. You get more in the voting threads, though, due to complaints, snide remarks, "OMG withholding the team vote again??", last minute vote spamming and so on.

[Rob]

You can shop a PrtScrn very easily.

As for drama, well, drama follows everything and appears everywhere.

Oh drama! It can't be avoided. I think we can agree that someone who can't be trusted with keeping votes shouldn't be in charge of this. People can verify their vote by looking at the post-vote list.

and more than one person can tally if the organisers are busy or something.

The list of votes can be tossed in the thread just the same, letting people tally it and argue over the tally.

[DJ Incompetent]

Say people vote by PM and you count the posts. Midweek you could post a little hint of how well games are doing....

It'd defeat the point of private vote. When going private, people don't want any indication on how the vote is going so nobody can tweak strategies.



I thought captains compiling a vote list from all his team would be great. Then I realized we're going to have "100% voter turnout." Why? Because captains are going to make up votes for players who didn't reply to coordination requests. Then people who figure this out are going to complain that captains are using others to submit multiple votes for themselves. Theeeeen sombody's going to say full 7-man teams have a slightly unfair voting advantage because nobody can prove a captain's PM with 7 votes really was compiled from the wishes of 7 individual people.

Having a dedicated "STGT" account could work. Just count on the fact somebody who didn't get his way in the vote is going to point fingers or blame a process. You know this. Doesn't it happen to the top 25 threads like every year? A PrintScreen & listing who voted for what after the vote ends would be as good as it's gonna get.

Even during the voting period, there'll still be people having open conversations about who voted for what. People will be probing others trying to learn their voting habits to play the voting chess game anyway.

Private vote may be a more ideal process in a more closed technical non-social tourney, but as we're not really requiring massive waves of score proofs in score weeks, I'd say just go with Public voting. It is not perfect, but it's a far more stable process. It's best to just maintain check&balance controls and narrow down potential variables for (claims to) corruption when we're dealing with eighty people over the onlines.

[Rob]

Just count on the fact somebody who didn't get his way in the vote is going to point fingers or blame a process. You know this.

Whaaaaat? I got my way, I think! I felt lucky at the picks.

People will be probing others trying to learn their voting habits to play the voting chess game anyway.

That's fine.

as we're not really requiring massive waves of score proofs in score weeks, I'd say just go with Public voting.

I don't think these two things are related, but you can bet people want to see proof for the top scores. It wasn't exactly informal happy time.

[Danny]

Say people vote by PM and you count the posts. Midweek you could post a little hint of how well games are doing....

It'd defeat the point of private vote. When going private, people don't want any indication on how the vote is going so nobody can tweak strategies.

Sorry dude I typed that straight after returning from work. I'll be quite now...

[DJ Incompetent]

as we're not really requiring massive waves of score proofs in score weeks, I'd say just go with Public voting.

I don't think these two things are related, but you can bet people want to see proof for the top scores. It wasn't exactly informal happy time.

Yeah, but at face value it'd feel more like a super secure stingy secret vote when the point of the tourney, being the scores (under top 5), would feel much more laid back. Sorta inconsistent I guess.

Bad comparison? probably.




so far..

public support: 4 or 5
private support: 1

anybody new got a preference?

[Icarus]

I don't think these two things are related, but you can bet people want to see proof for the top scores.

The thing being that only two or three players provided proof/replays of their scores, without being asked, and yet there was a bit of controversy in the last week of the tournament regarding it. Whether or not that changes and more people both provide and request replays is left to the participants themselves.

(I will be providing replays for all my scores, as per usual.)

Anyway, I still vote for public voting, for reasons listed in previous posts. It makes for a more interesting tournament.

[Super Laydock]

so far..

public support: 4 or 5
private support: 1

anybody new got a preference?

Add another one for "public", for the reasons that Icarus listed.

[Rob]

public support: 4 or 5
private support: 1

Oh come on, I listed 4-5 good reasons. And then there's:

Public, pros:
+it's a trainwreck hehe
+informality??

Personally I just don't want to have to play the wait, watch and plot game vs. the let the top team(s) continually swing it their way game. Tedious, crap.

[Rob]

How about people who want to make their vote public can do that and people who want to make their vote private send them through PM? People could guess what they'd like from the public votes, but it wouldn't be the entire picture. That'd be a fair compromise.