Ketsui for DS?!

[GaijinPunch]

I don't see why.

2 pixel hitbox for starters... Portables aren't real game systems is another. Tiny screen & shit sound are universal reasons why I would hate to see a masterpiece be made for a machine that's best played on a plane or a bus. Then again, I can't even play games like this w/o an arcade-ish stick.

[sven666]

2 pixel hitbox for starters... Portables aren't real game systems is another. Tiny screen & shit sound are universal reasons why I would hate to see a masterpiece be made for a machine that's best played on a plane or a bus. Then again, I can't even play games like this w/o an arcade-ish stick.

yeah, just try progear or whatnot on a PSP.. yeah the game runs fine but playability wise its a novelty act at best.

just take the 2nd boss's last pattern which requires some fine pixel dodging, its a pretty easy pattern on the arcade but its a cointoss on the PSP

ed: i cant believe there are so many that are content with playing shitty ports and crappy roms if i cant play a game properly in its original format or (like espgaluda/DDP DOJ) on a damn near substitute then id rather not play it at all...

[BrianC]

2 pixel hitbox for starters... Portables aren't real game systems is another. Tiny screen & shit sound are universal reasons why I would hate to see a masterpiece be made for a machine that's best played on a plane or a bus. Then again, I can't even play games like this w/o an arcade-ish stick.

yeah, just try progear or whatnot on a PSP.. yeah the game runs fine but playability wise its a novelty act at best.

just take the 2nd boss's last pattern which requires some fine pixel dodging, its a pretty easy pattern on the arcade but its a cointoss on the PSP

ed: i cant believe there are so many that are content with playing shitty ports and crappy roms if i cant play a game properly in its original format or (like espgaluda/DDP DOJ) on a damn near substitute then id rather not play it at all...

Portables may have small screens, but make up for it with the sharpness of the screens. However, despite having a bigger screen than the GBA or DS, I heard that the PSP screen has issues like ghosting. I don't know how the PSP handles Progear's screen size, but maybe the lack of visibility may be to other issues? Then again, the PSP has a bigger screen than either the GBA or DS, and I found the bullets to be very visibile in games like Gradius Galaxies and even some ports like the Famicom Mini Twinbee.

What's this about crappy sound? Doesn't PSP have CD quality sound? The GBA does have some crappy sound, but some developers have used special sound engines to get better sound out of it, like with Iridion II. Also, portables have headphone jacks for a reason (though the SP doesn't. The headphone plug accessory for it is a must have). Even without stereo, headphones still put out louder sound than the speakers.

To me, there's much more to ports/emulation than screen ratios and filters. While it would be nice to see the graphics as close to the original as possible, there are other factors. I'm more annoyed when the game is over clocked, under clocked, unplayable, full of glitches that weren't in the original, or rife with slowdown that wasn't in the original than with filters. I also like to keep the hardware in mind when it comes to emulation. It's unrealistic to expect the GBA to have sound as good as the SNES, for example.

There are also some conversions to systems like NES that are drastically different from the arcade and worth playing in their own right. They are far from arcade perfect, but are tailored to the system rather than designed around hardware that the system can't hold a candle to.

[Frederik]

Portable systems not real game machines? Now, what systems continued the tradition of 2D gaming? Astro Boy Omega Factor, Megaman Zero, Metroid Fusion, all not proper games? I can understand that many people think portable systems are not that suited for shmups (mainly because of shitty d-pads), but that statement is pretty exaggerated.

[GaijinPunch]

but make up for it with the sharpness of the screens.

It's hard to not have a 2 inch screen look sharp.

Portable systems not real game machines? Now, what systems continued the tradition of 2D gaming? Astro Boy Omega Factor, Megaman Zero, Metroid Fusion, all not proper games? I can understand that many people think portable systems are not that suited for shmups (mainly because of shitty d-pads), but that statement is pretty exaggerated.

I never said the games sucked. I've played a lot of those. They look great in a proper emulation setup. Most DS games go way under my head (although I got a kick out of the Kirby game) so I'm not too bothered that it will never emulated properly, thus leaving the games virtually inaccessible to me. THe PSP has had about 3 games total that look even remotely appealing to me that aren't remakes. No doubt fuels the fire.

[Monk 0 Nuggets]

ed: i cant believe there are so many that are content with playing shitty ports and crappy roms if i cant play a game properly in its original format or (like espgaluda/DDP DOJ) on a damn near substitute then id rather not play it at all...

That seems unbelievably silly to me. What if you had never played the PCB? I bet you would have a blast playing a shitty port. Why? Because it is plain old fun. The game is made so you can have fun, not so you can posture over tiny insignificant technical flaws.

[sethsez]

ed: i cant believe there are so many that are content with playing shitty ports and crappy roms if i cant play a game properly in its original format or (like espgaluda/DDP DOJ) on a damn near substitute then id rather not play it at all...

That seems unbelievably silly to me. What if you had never played the PCB? I bet you would have a blast playing a shitty port. Why? Because it is plain old fun. The game is made so you can have fun, not so you can posture over tiny insignificant technical flaws.

I can only imagine people bitching about the NES version of Contra because the graphics aren't as nice and it's not TATE like the arcade original, nevermind that it's actually a fantastic game in its own right.

[Never_Scurred]

ed: i cant believe there are so many that are content with playing shitty ports and crappy roms if i cant play a game properly in its original format or (like espgaluda/DDP DOJ) on a damn near substitute then id rather not play it at all...

That seems unbelievably silly to me. What if you had never played the PCB? I bet you would have a blast playing a shitty port. Why? Because it is plain old fun. The game is made so you can have fun, not so you can posture over tiny insignificant technical flaws.

That would work if you never visited these forums. I mean, if you are gonna own this game or are even considering it, then how could you not know that there is a superior version(PCB) somewhere?
and if you honestly didn't know, you'd be reminded of it everytime you visited this forum.(Mushi, anyone?)
I'm not against shmupping on a handheld, but porting a game as revered as Ketsui to a handheld(if for anything because your team was too untalented to make it work on a console) is fucking crazy. Wait, not fucking crazy, just crazy- I mean, what is the other hot console in Japan right now worth developing for?
Anyways, i'd much rather see Cave/Arika create an original shmup IP that pushed the DS instead of using the Ketsui name to release a crappy shooter port.

[BrianC]

That seems unbelievably silly to me. What if you had never played the PCB? I bet you would have a blast playing a shitty port. Why? Because it is plain old fun. The game is made so you can have fun, not so you can posture over tiny insignificant technical flaws.

I can only imagine people bitching about the NES version of Contra because the graphics aren't as nice and it's not TATE like the arcade original, nevermind that it's actually a fantastic game in its own right.

The Famicom version is even better, though.

[GaijinPunch]

I can only imagine people bitching about the NES version of Contra because the graphics aren't as nice and it's not TATE like the arcade original, nevermind that it's actually a fantastic game in its own right.

That was from an age when perfect, or even near perfect home ports were not possible. The arcade hardware for the most part was vastly superior to the console. We were pretty sure the graphics were going to suck in comparison if we got the port.

[mrkotfw]

That seems unbelievably silly to me. What if you had never played the PCB? I bet you would have a blast playing a shitty port. Why? Because it is plain old fun. The game is made so you can have fun, not so you can posture over tiny insignificant technical flaws.

That would work if you never visited these forums. I mean, if you are gonna own this game or are even considering it, then how could you not know that there is a superior version(PCB) somewhere?
and if you honestly didn't know, you'd be reminded of it everytime you visited this forum.(Mushi, anyone?)
I'm not against shmupping on a handheld, but porting a game as revered as Ketsui to a handheld(if for anything because your team was too untalented to make it work on a console) is fucking crazy. Wait, not fucking crazy, just crazy- I mean, what is the other hot console in Japan right now worth developing for?
Anyways, i'd much rather see Cave/Arika create an original shmup IP that pushed the DS instead of using the Ketsui name to release a crappy shooter port.

I'm kind of with you on this one. How many bullets are displayed at a time on Ketsui's fifth stage? it surely isn't enough to slow the PlayStation 2 down. What were the other reasons the Programmers couldn't pull this off? All I care is this "port" will bring down the prices of Ketsui considerably!

[GaijinPunch]

it surely isn't enough to slow the PlayStation 2 down.

No, but mixed w/ the backgrounds, and numerous enemy bitmaps it was apparently enough to bring it to a grinding hault (figuratively speaking). The PS2 sucks for memory. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Developers have been bitching about it since the PS2's inception, and now Arika gets caned when they can't make a game written in low-level Assembly, designed for a PCB, work on a PS2.

What were the other reasons the Programmers couldn't pull this off?

Many details discussed many times over in the "No Ketsui Port for PS2 thread".

[Monk 0 Nuggets]

That seems unbelievably silly to me. What if you had never played the PCB? I bet you would have a blast playing a shitty port. Why? Because it is plain old fun. The game is made so you can have fun, not so you can posture over tiny insignificant technical flaws.

That would work if you never visited these forums. I mean, if you are gonna own this game or are even considering it, then how could you not know that there is a superior version(PCB) somewhere?
and if you honestly didn't know, you'd be reminded of it everytime you visited this forum.(Mushi, anyone?)

I own the PS2 port of Mushi and find it awesome. More than playable and definitely fun. Yes, I know there is a PCB version of it. No, I've never seen a PCB of any Cave game in real life. If I had the chance to play the PCB of Mushi, I would experience the way it was made to play it. Would it make me hate my fairly inexpensive PS2 port of Mushi that is fairly portable? Absolutely not. Why? Because I don't bitch about insignificant technical flaws.

[GaijinPunch]

Because I don't bitch about insignificant technical flaws.

Guess we can start fighting over what's significant or not. All filtering arguments set aside, many would agree that missing slowdown greatly alters the game in a few parts.

[SFKhoa]

All technical arguments aside, any real update on this DS port of Ketsui? [If a port at all]

[Monk 0 Nuggets]

All technical arguments aside, any real update on this DS port of Ketsui? [If a port at all]

word. i'm through. haha

[lmn4096]

Ok It seems that nobody did a full report on what was going on with this Ketsui DS news.
So I will try to report it in english here (even if the majority of the english board seems very against any Ketsui DS ports )

the past history info:

1° Mihara did a meeting in the Gamer's lounge in Akihabara for a public interview between IKD and him
about the feasability of Ketsui port on PS2. (you know already the result. No Possibility)

2° Mihara report the info about the canned PS2 port and people started to hate him (very sad to see that kind of reaction from the community)

3° Mihara wrote on his blog that a new meeting was scheduled for the 31th of march and revealed in same time a video of Doom
fight on a DS. IKD was also invited.
the purpose of this meeting was to show and gaether informations of the public.
people was asked to take diner at the lounge.
and after playing the demo they needed to reply a little report. like this Mihara can have some
data to present at Arika commercial stuff. and also a way to improve the product.

the 31th of march :

the meeting was in a restaurant in Akihabara. there was around 100 places and Mihara wrote that it was
important to take food because, well it is a restaurant

the meeting did goes well except that Mihara needed to be hospitalized around midnight. (don't forget that he is very sick (stomach cancer)
and big trouble with his eyes sight)

he need to take some rest but it seems that point is totaly impossible for him.
because at 0h30 he was reporting on his blog from his hospital bed...
and another report on his blog was wrote at around 4h00 am the same night when he reached home...
he was sorry because he planned to show a little surprise at the meeting, in the form of a Mushihime DS...
(but don't be to excited when he wrote that it was already 1st of april... who knows) and didn't had
enough time to finalise it.

by the way the Ketsui DS was wrote entirely by himeself. and Arika was not involved in anyway.

He had this Idea when he was bored in a hospital bed (again) and he thought that it would be
fun to fight Doom anywhere...
at first he was thinking of the PSP, but the Dpad is such a terrible pain on it, that the DS would be
better if it can handle it. and guess what? it can!

also there was a little trouble in the meeting, because one guy did came with his Gamecube and GBA player to show his own work...
it was "Tiny Doom" nearly the same thing as what Mihara was presenting but not on DS but GBA...
the Official Staff and other pro gamers was very upset.
I also think if the guy was a little more smart, he would take contact directly with Arika or Cave
and show them his work in private meeting. like this he could maybe have a contract with them...
anyway here is the video of his work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgbXAZ4RpZs
(info taken from the 2ch BBS http://game11.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/gamestg/1171609899/
thread nbr 905, and the video was on this thread 907)


Well now let's speak about the DS version.

The Demo was presented as a single fight against Doom-sama only.
1ship and no bomb.
The full game seems to be in the form of a Boss fight only (ala DDP-DOJ Death Label)
the Demo was downloadable using WiFi only after the console was inspected carrefuly by the official stuff.
(IKD and Mihara was one of them.)
after that the demo had a timer of 120 minutes. when it reach 0 the demo was locked. and they needed to
redownload the thing.
The stuff checked that nothing was running before on the DS and the demo was downloadable only
if no cartridge of any type was inserted in the DS.
Then the stuff allowed the server for the checked DS to upload the demo.
They did that to be sure that no demo will be leaked on the net

from the Blog of Mihara, he wrote what was required to clear the demo:
Espgaluda 1 credit clear ----> nearly noway to beat Doom
Mushihime 1 credit clear ----> have some chance to beat Doom
Ketsui PCB 1 credit 2loop clear ----> can beat Doom

there was more than 100 people at the meeting (it was full)
only 6 people did beat Doom-sama.

The response from players on these demo was very positive.
It seems that Mihara did a nice job by modifying the speed and adjusting the patern to fit the DS screen
the 4:3 ratio of the screen.
The arcade feeling was excellent.
the Audio part was top notch.

In other word: It was a little gem!!

One of the guy (a superplayer at Ketsui) on his blog wrote that at first he had some trouble
with the D-Pad, because he was moving his full hand like with a stick. but after 30 minutes of
training he was accustomed, then that every thing was fine.
He also reported to Mihara that if it was only the bosses of Ketsui in the final product it would be
a little bit poor for a game...
Mihara also reported that he already anticipated that and asked IKD to create some unknow new Boss

Now the project is in the hand of the commercial of Arika.
If they like it we can hope to see it realized.

-----

video of Deathlabel DS :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05mS2rmJ ... 677%2Ehtml

and here some blog of super players (japanese only) with some nice picture of the event:
Gamers Lounge:
http://www5.ocn.ne.jp/~yoc/gra.html#20070331

another blog with pictures and video:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/stghajimemasita ... 38677.html

-----

Ok that's it.
Hope now people understand better what's going on.

[Mills]

Damn that youtube clip was sick. does this mean possibility of other Cave titles making there way as a port on DS?

[DEL]

Firstly, April Fools.

Secondly, I agree with GaijinPunch;

2 pixel hitbox for starters... Portables aren't real game systems is another. Tiny screen & shit sound are universal reasons why I would hate to see a masterpiece be made for a machine that's best played on a plane or a bus. Then again, I can't even play games like this w/o an arcade-ish stick.

[Necronom]

Thanks lmn4096 for all the info. Interesting story, I would defintely love to see a Cave game on the DS, even if it's just a boss rush.
Kenta Cho's Rrootage is a boss rush and it's freaking fun!

[moonblood]

yes thanks alot for the translation, personally I really hope for a release...

also very sad to read about him being sick, didn't know that

[eretsua]

major thanks Imn4096 for your positive & insightful contribution to this thread! much appreciated.

eretsua

[BrianC]

Secondly, I agree with GaijinPunch;

2 pixel hitbox for starters... Portables aren't real game systems is another. Tiny screen & shit sound are universal reasons why I would hate to see a masterpiece be made for a machine that's best played on a plane or a bus. Then again, I can't even play games like this w/o an arcade-ish stick.

There are more elements than just screen size. If done well, that two pixel hit box should be just as visible on the small screen as it is on the big screen. Also, what's with this "crappy sound" thing? Yes, the GBA sound isn't the best, but doesn't the PSP have CD quality sound? DS sound is a heck of a lot better than GBA too. In order to get the best sound out of portables, quality headphones are required.

Portables are real game systems. They have built in controllers because it's awkward switching controllers on the go. As I said before, the design of the screen can make up for how small it is. The hardware for the DS, GBA, and PSP isn't up to the current gen of systems (though the PSP is the closest), but it's still well designed enough to allow for excellent games. (also while I mostly commented on the recent handhelds, I should comment on the NeoGeo Pocket Color. It doesn't have as many games as the GB or the GBA, but many games on it are quality stuff. It is also one of the better designed handhelds out there with a high quality stick and excellent screen)

BTW, the Ketsui thing isn't an April Fool's joke. Check the post two posts above your post.

[Specineff]

So is this thing for real, or an April Fools?

[EOJ]

So is this thing for real, or an April Fools?

It's for real.

[mrkotfw]

lmn4096, excellent post! You've pretty much summarized everything into one single post!

[Never_Scurred]

Nice post lmn.
I'm still skeptical and i'll prolly stay that way until I get to play the damn thing but I hope this turns out well.
Wouldn't it better though if this was a stylus game? Like , you use the stylus to move your ship and the D-pad to fire? As unlikely as it seems(cause it makes too much sense), if they manage to do it this way, i'd be more than satisfied.

[Sonic R]

Thanks for updates and information!

I will buy it. I will play it. I will enjoy it. I will suck at it. My score will be the suck. I hope it is to be realized

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I don't see why.

2 pixel hitbox for starters... Portables aren't real game systems is another. Tiny screen & shit sound are universal reasons why I would hate to see a masterpiece be made for a machine that's best played on a plane or a bus. Then again, I can't even play games like this w/o an arcade-ish stick.

Let's see, SNK made such a portable handheld by the name of Neo-Geo Pocket (the original B&W LCD version & later, the Color version as well). They both have such excellent crafted minature joystick built in and very responsive too. I don't know how the JPN version of NGP-C Cotton shmup title fares -- a USA NGP-C version of Cotton was supposed to be released but was cancelled at the last minute, thanks to SNK USA.

The NGP-C version of Pac-Man even comes with a special O-ring adapter to allow for true 4-way directional control scheme (instead of 8-way movement) just like how it was with the real Pac-Man arcade cabinet..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Kiken]

Let's see, SNK made such a portable handheld by the name of Neo-Geo Pocket (the original B&W LCD version & later, the Color version as well). They both have such excellent crafted minature joystick built in and very responsive too. I don't know how the JPN version of NGP-C Cotton shmup title fares -- a USA NGP-C version of Cotton was supposed to be released but was cancelled at the last minute, thanks to SNK USA.

Yeah.. cause they just ripped the thumb-stick off of the Neo-CD pad and shrunk it down about 25%.

Also, NGPC Cotton is a total waste. What I would have given for a portable Pulstar or Blazing Star.