Read these books or go to hell.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:17 am

ktownhero wrote:There is a movie 1984. It was changed to have a "happy" ending though.

The version filmed in 1984 (on the dates the novel was supposed to have taken place on, no less)? That doesn't have a happy ending. Maybe you're thinking of Blade Runner's theatrical release

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:33 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:
ktownhero wrote:There is a movie 1984. It was changed to have a "happy" ending though.
The version filmed in 1984 (on the dates the novel was supposed to have taken place on, no less)? That doesn't have a happy ending. Maybe you're thinking of Blade Runner's theatrical release

Are you guys talking about the John Hurt one? That kinda did have a happy ending.
I haven't touched the book in awhile, but after seeing the movie, I remembered the ending feeling different than the book. Don't kill me guys cause i've only read the book once, but I ****SPOILERS****(for those that really care) remember thinking that Winston was murdered at the end, when he is in the pub sitting by himself listening to the Big Brother report. Once again, don't kill me guys, but thats what I took from the book ending. When I saw the movie, I was expecting that at the end. But the rest of the movie was alright. I wish they would have included the stuff from the book that (I forgot his name, but the badguy who Winston was fascinated with) gave to Winston to read shortly before he arrested him.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:07 am

For school I have to read 'Bless Me, Ultima' by Rudolfo Anaya.

Two words: Fuck. This.

Too much spanish. I don't care if there is a reason there is so much spanish in it. Even the chapters are numbered in spanish.

Who here has read Farenheit 451? Is it good? I've never gotten around to reading it on my own and I'm pretty sure it's required reading for my grade. It sounds good, but so did 1984.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:01 am

Who here has read Farenheit 451? Is it good? I've never gotten around to reading it on my own and I'm pretty sure it's required reading for my grade. It sounds good, but so did 1984.

You don't have to read a book to know 'censorship is bad, mmkay?' unless you want a more in-depth argument, in which case you could find one somewhere else

www.powerseductionandwar.com - not a book, but a must-read. He's written a few books though, can't comment on them (yet).

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:25 am

Lovecraft at the beginning was an old school reactionary who worshipped the PASP roots of the New England. Case in point, he basically never moved his ass from his house (much like any basement neocon kid polluting the planet).
All adorers of Cthulhu and the like were systematically immigrants and non PASP people. From the New York period on, though, he definitely changed his attitude. Tales became more of the " human beings (all of them) are just an accidental form of life, the Universe doesn't really care".

" At the mountains of madness" is a perfect example, as the alien civilization in it really sounds like a different form of intelligence and life, while some of the errors (I'm trying to avoid spoilers) they made sound vaguely closer to historical errors of humakind. Another great story is " The shadow out of time", which lacks any real element of true horror and is more akin to a sci-fi story. There is something definitely "darwinian" in his later tales, as he is able to avoid all the clichés of anglophonic/reactionary horror (the usual monsters that punish the couple having pre-marriage sex in the car) and somehow reduce man's place as a blink in evolution (or elder ones' design!).

That, and CMoon is *clearly* a Deep one!

Krooze L-Roy · Post by **Krooze L-Roy** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:42 am

Pirate1019 wrote: Who here has read Farenheit 451? Is it good? I've never gotten around to reading it on my own and I'm pretty sure it's required reading for my grade. It sounds good, but so did 1984.

If you didn't like 1984, you really won't like 451. The lead character is dull and personality-less and it's completely unbelievable how he changes from one extreme to the another. I don't mean "unbelievable" in the sense that it'll blow your mind; I mean you won't buy it for a second. And like Neon said, do you really need to read a whole book just to get a simplistic and no-longer-very-relevant moral? Still, I must've enjoyed the book overall cause I finished it within a single day.

Equilibrium, which I believe someone mentioned earlier, is pretty similar to both books thematically, and is a pretty damn good watch. Anybody who liked 1984 (or the Matrix for that matter) should check it out.

SpooN · Post by **SpooN** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:53 am

The problem with Lem is that most of his stories are not entertaining at all, if you are not able to find any greater substance within they will be just boring.

But you all are lucky because I read pretty much everything from Lem and can tell you which stories to avoid

Or better which stories to read:
Shortstories (directly translated from german, don't know the english titles):
Dr. Diagoras
The Truth ("Die Wahrheit")

Books:
Hospital of the Transfiguration (not SF)
Highcastle: A Remembrance (some kind of biographie but pretty interesting)
A Perfect Vacuum was ok but some "stories" were horrible in the respect stated above.
As mentioned:
The Investigation (it's about... ZOMBIES come on and read it NOW)
The Invincible
The Chain of Chance

If you like what you read you could try Return from the Stars.

I had to read 1984 in school which is always somehow offturning but in the end I liked some of the concepts. The idea of New Speak is amazing.

I don't think of Lovecraft as horror. It's just not frightening. I could read a lot of it because I can partly enjoy this old-fashioned style of writing and to a big part because the more stories you read the funnier they become.
They are all pretty predictable and some of the paragraphs are just pathetic (like the often repeated line about the forbidden books the main character read).

Bram Stokers Dracula is a lot like Lovecraft. I just couldn't take it serious.

Yes, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is awesome but I guess ou all read it already, right?

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:05 pm

Never_Scurred wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
ktownhero wrote:There is a movie 1984. It was changed to have a "happy" ending though.
The version filmed in 1984 (on the dates the novel was supposed to have taken place on, no less)? That doesn't have a happy ending.
Are you guys talking about the John Hurt one? That kinda did have a happy ending.

The John Hurt version of 1984 did not have a happy ending. If you think that, you didn't watch very closely at all. It wasn't changed significantly over the book version, which was ALSO very unhappy.

Again, I watched this movie recently. Either you two have forgotten, or didn't understand it (i.e. you're stupid).

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:13 pm

Randorama wrote: That, and CMoon is *clearly* a Deep one!

*writes this from his dead frozen city in the heart of the lost continent*

The nature of the internet does open itself up to a real question of identity. Truth is the nature of boards and e-mail makes us all in a sense, men of letters. Now we see the problem in 'Whisperer in the darkness' reintroduced, where whole people may be ferried away into the nether regions of space, their nervous systems stuffed into mechanical tubes of some sorts where their consciousness (and intellect) might somehow serve those Winged Ones (which came from the Great Bear in the sky) which Akeley wrote about.

PASP? Isn't that some sort of shitty beer?

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:18 pm

CMoon wrote:PASP? Isn't that some sort of shitty beer? :P

Good to know I wasn't the only person who had that come to mind!

*Ed looks at ancient 70s Genesee beer can on shelf nearby

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:11 pm

Pink Anglo-Saxon Protestant...my favourite of the Rando-isms

My ladyfriend is of Italian descent also and makes fun of my pink knuckles

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:07 pm

Neon wrote: My ladyfriend...

I don't know about reading, but before you make another Big Lebowski reference I think you need to see this (goddamn, I've never laughed so hard)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9W4cQ_wTuI

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:48 pm

I am currently reading "Licensed to Kill: Hired Guns on the War on Terror" by Robert Young Pelton. VERY good and interesting look at the use of private contractors to fight and provide security in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also reading through the Psalms in the New Living translation of the Bible.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:18 pm

Great, nice to know I'll probably be disappointed with 451 also. At least it's short and I'm a fast reader.

Who here hated The Lord of the Flies? I sure did. I hated being ten years old so I sure as hell hated reading a book from the perspective of a ten year old. I don't understand why this book gets so much praise.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:38 pm

Pirate1019 wrote:
Who here hated The Lord of the Flies? I sure did. I hated being ten years old so I sure as hell hated reading a book from the perspective of a ten year old. I don't understand why this book gets so much praise.

I think your missing the surpressed desire in that book of all adults to see adolescents abandoned on islands.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:31 pm

CMoon wrote:
Neon wrote: My ladyfriend...
I don't know about reading, but before you make another Big Lebowski reference I think you need to see this (goddamn, I've never laughed so hard)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9W4cQ_wTuI

Haha, classic. I wasn't even thinking about Lebowski when I wrote that. Soon I'll start slipping 'you're out of your element' into everyday conversations.

Didn't like the other post so much, I guess that's the attitude I've got to look forward to after a few years of teaching...>_< due to the law of karma I'll get kids that were just like me

@Rando - I feel like I'm stalking you but your blog is a great read. Wouldn't Lord of the Flies count as the 'PASP horror' you've been talking about (unleashing the monster within, etc). No Friday the 13th-esque killing of premaritally fucking couples though

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:42 pm

Actually I'm a firm believer that children (eh 9-14) need to be part of some sort of rite of passage, and maybe that needs to be brutal, I don't know. I think all this atrocious behavior we hear about from the youngin's and our general distrust of them is because we share nothing in common with them. All our lives are pretty damn easy. We're all fat and domesticated, ready for the mindless lull of the rat race. Despite all the other ideas we've tossed around here, I wouldn't be surprised if the single thing desperately lacking in this culture, at the root of all other woes, wasn't a rite of passage that unified the whole culture.

So I'm sort of joking about abandoning adolescents on islands, but on the other hand, they no longer serve the purpose of perpetuating our culture--we don't really have one anymore

Hahahahaha! Take heart though, our coming war (economic or whatever) with China will be glorious! We at least have that to look forward to before we just fade away!!!

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:50 pm

Neon wrote:Pink Anglo-Saxon Protestant...my favourite of the Rando-isms

I was under the impression that the first "P" stood for "Pasty."

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:48 pm

CMoon wrote:
Neon wrote: My ladyfriend...
I don't know about reading, but before you make another Big Lebowski reference I think you need to see this (goddamn, I've never laughed so hard)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9W4cQ_wTuI

God, I better get that movie right now.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:40 am

"Lord of the flies" is perfectly coherent with facts. If one looks for some empirical proof of " the good savage" theory, he will find none. Rosseau's theory has been endorsed by poets, wishful thinkers, random lunatic filth of this type. Rosseau himself spent his time wanking in a swiss chateau, much like most of his ilk he was a "basement kid raving about the order of the world" ante litteram (e.g. Nietzche, Focault, etc.).

Speaking of which, Napoleon Champollion in Champollion (1978) analyzed in detail the good savages Yanomami, finding out that they spend their time killing each other and raping women. Good savages indeed, but for maggots as Ann Coulter! At any case, " The blank state" or "How the mind works" by Pinker contain insightful analyses of the problem with the aforeentioned pernicious myth.

Useful books: various by Carl Sagan (of course), but also Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" and "Collapse: how societies fail to succeed" . Fuck culture, it's all about management of resources!

I forgot: Manga no kamisama is in town, shame it's a shitty day (didn't know Sydney had bad weather, damn).

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:56 pm

From War and Peace, Book I, part 3, chapter 18:

...on that same narrow dam, among wagons and cannons, under horses' hoofs [sic?] and between wagon wheels, now huddled men with faces distorted by the fear of death, crushing one another, expiring, stepping over the dying, killing one another, only to move on a few steps to be themselves killed in the same way.
Every ten seconds a cannonball plopped down, compressing the air as it flew over, or a shell burst in the midst of that dense crowd, killing men and splattering blood on those standing near them.
Dolokhov, wounded in the arm and going on foot with some dozen soldiers of his company (he was now an officer) and his regimental commander on horseback, were the sole survivors of the entire regiment. Carried along by the crowd, they had got wedged into the approach to the dam and jammed in on all sides because a horse in front had fallen under a cannon and the crowd was dragging it out. A cannonball killed someone behind them and another fell in front, splattering Dolokhov with blood. The crowd, squeezed together and desperately pressing forward, moved a few steps again and stopped.
'A hundred paces more and I'm sure to be saved; another couple of minutes here and it's certain death,' each man was thinking.
Dolokhov, who was in the middle of the crowd, forced his way to the edge of the dam, knocking down two soldiers on the way, and ran out onto the slippery ice that covered the millpond.
'Turn this way!' he shouted, leaping over the ice, which creaked under him. 'Turn this way!' he cried to the men with the gun. 'It's holding!'
The ice bore him but cracked and swayed, and it was plain that it would give way in a moment, not only under a cannon or a number of men, but under his weight alone. Watching him, the men pressed toward the bank, unable to bring themselves to step onto the ice. The general on horseback at the approach to the dam raised his hand and opened his mouth to speak to Dolokhov. Suddenly a cannonball flew so low over the heads of the crowd that everyone ducked. There was a moist plopping sound and the general fell from his horse in a pool of blood. No one gave him a look or even thought of lifting him up.
'Onto the ice! Onto the ice! Go on! Turn! Don't you hear? Go on!' countless voices commenced shouting after the cannonball had struck the general, the men not knowing what or why they were shouting.
One of the guns in the rear that had just moved onto the dam turned onto the ice. Crowds of soldiers from the dam began to run onto the frozen millpond. The ice cracked under one of the foremost soldiers, and his leg slipped into the water; he tried to right himself and fell in up to the waist. The nearest soldiers hesitated; the driver of the cannon stopped his horse, but the shouting from behind continued: 'Onto the ice! Why are you stopping? Go on! Go on!' And cries of terror were heard in the crowd. The soldiers near the gun waved their arms and lashed the horses to make them turn and move on. The horses started moving off the bank. The ice, which had held under the men on foot, caved in; a huge fragment with about forty men on it gave way, casting some of them forward, some back, and they drowned one another as they fell into the water.
Still the cannonballs whistled overhead at regular intervals, splashing into the ice and water, but more often into the crowd that covered the dam, the millpond, and the bank.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:47 am

CMoon wrote:
Pirate1019 wrote:
Who here hated The Lord of the Flies? I sure did. I hated being ten years old so I sure as hell hated reading a book from the perspective of a ten year old. I don't understand why this book gets so much praise.
I think your missing the surpressed desire in that book of all adults to see adolescents abandoned on islands.

Well that would be all well and good if not for the ending.

The premise of the book was really cool, but I think it was ruined by the fact that it was kids stuck on the island instead of adults, or at least teenagers.

Reading the dialogue between the boys was so confusing. There were too many unfinished thoughts and random words that made everything too incoherant.

Krooze L-Roy · Post by **Krooze L-Roy** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:40 pm

Pirate1019 wrote: Well that would be all well and good if not for the ending.

The premise of the book was really cool, but I think it was ruined by the fact that it was kids stuck on the island instead of adults, or at least teenagers.

Reading the dialogue between the boys was so confusing. There were too many unfinished thoughts and random words that made everything too incoherant.

Well I guess it just sucks to your assmars if you didn't enjoy the book!

Actually, that was one of the books I neglected to read in school. That line's the only thing I remember.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:59 pm

Lucky you.

Still fighting my way through Bless Me Ultima. Still sucks. The best part of the book so far is a part where a bunch of kids do a play about the first christmas and everything that could possibly go wrong does. To indicate just how far awry it gets, here is a quick excerpt:

...and at the same time, a blod curdling scream filled the air, and Bones came sailing through the air and landed on Horse.
"For the virrrrrr-gin!" Bones cried.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:06 am

Lord of the Flies definitely didn't have enough canibalism in it. Although the kid talking to the head of a pig was pretty cool.

Better yet if the pig god had spoken to the child and told him to eat the flesh of his fallen comrades (or if none, then to fell them first.) Man, serious opportunities missed with this book!

The adolescent cannibal exploitation genre has yet to be fully explored!!!

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:59 am

I didn't like Simon as a character. He was too much of a Christ incarnate for my taste.

Yes, cannibalism would have made the book much better.

+ More cannibalism - Less Christ-like characters = Better Lord of the Flies

Minzoku · Post by **Minzoku** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:54 pm

Pirate1019 wrote:Who here hated The Lord of the Flies? I sure did. I hated being ten years old so I sure as hell hated reading a book from the perspective of a ten year old. I don't understand why this book gets so much praise.

It's supposed to be a commentary on high school popularity and how pointless it is--that is, when there's nothing to fight over, people will fight over nothing. We're socially stupid that way.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:22 pm

Minzoku wrote:
Pirate1019 wrote:Who here hated The Lord of the Flies? I sure did. I hated being ten years old so I sure as hell hated reading a book from the perspective of a ten year old. I don't understand why this book gets so much praise.
It's supposed to be a commentary on high school popularity and how pointless it is--that is, when there's nothing to fight over, people will fight over nothing. We're socially stupid that way.

Whoever wrote that article is a [edit - did I really write that? ahaha]. I started smoking marijuana because I wanted to know what it felt like to be high.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:33 pm

Lovecraft at the beginning was an old school reactionary who worshipped the PASP roots of the New England. Case in point, he basically never moved his ass from his house (much like any basement neocon kid polluting the planet).
All adorers of Cthulhu and the like were systematically immigrants and non PASP people. From the New York period on, though, he definitely changed his attitude. Tales became more of the " human beings (all of them) are just an accidental form of life, the Universe doesn't really care".

Interesting, I always took it as the reverse- that the puritanical roots of New England were precisely the source of the perverse and dark things that occur in his stories. The fact that he was such a homebody leads me to believe that he found himself isolated and oppressed by the society that surrounded him. Although I suppose the case could be made that the villagers in Innsmouth were immigrants.

I'm wondering, is there any sort of documentation or correspondence about Lovecraft's politics during this period?

In any case, bad politics don't necessarily make a bad writer. I believe I mentioned Celine earlier -- highly questionable politically, but a fantastic writer.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:31 pm

There must be plenty of documentation on his thoughts. I think there are at least four bound volumes of his notes that can probably be purchased from Arkham press, if one is into that thing.

Again, personally I read right past that stuff. At his peak, Lovecraft was unparalleled in what he did. I'm just so-not-into trying to judge the moral character of yesterday's writers by today's standards when it remains impossible to understand precisely the cultural milieu that produced the writers thoughts.