5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:13 pm

Well, what *isn't* a multi-directional shooter, if Bangai-O is one? This seems like a really vague classification.

I'm going to say it's totally wack that games like that and Robotron may be allowed, and yet games like Heavy Barrel- whose only differences from shmups are that they push-scroll and let the player shoot in every direction- are not. Bogus!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:45 pm

Turrican wrote: Let me understand... You're recruiting troops for an anti-Cave front?

Well, on my part, I won't vote DDP this time - I really like it but I'd say it's enough with its regime

DDP at #1 is tradition! But, yeah, more than 3 Cave shooters on the list is too much. Mushihimesama and ESP Ra.De. for top 25 ever? Above Batrider, Raiden Fighters, Dragon Blaze? I'd rather see G Darius or even Zanac Neo over them, just some extra variety where superfluous (mediocre) Cave entries are. The only major flaw with last year's list. Strategically it might be best to focus on games just outside or barely inside of the top 25.

Well, what *isn't* a multi-directional shooter, if Bangai-O is one?

Games that don't let you move and shoot in 8 directions?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:57 pm

Rob wrote:No, Cotton is a fantasy game, not a cute 'em up. Unless you can explain what is cute about this:

Methinks that while the first Cotton could probably be classified that way, from 100% onwards the overall atmosphere got cuter and goofier, so I personally tend to view the series as a whole as a "cute em up" series. Not like the semantics of this matters a heck of a lot anyway.

I'd rather see G Darius or even Zanac Neo over them, just some extra variety where superfluous (mediocre) Cave entries are.

I vaguely recall having gone back and forth with either you or someone else on this point around last year's vote...and I still say that if a voter believes (as I do) that one company's "superfluous" games are better than another company's "best," it's silly to vote for the latter just "for variety's sake." After all, this is a "best of" list, not "most varied sampling." Of course, if you believe that Cave's titles just aren't very good then by all means vote as such, but denying them a vote just because other games by the same company are already there strikes me as missing the point of this list in the first place.

And seriously, I think that if you ended up voting for Zanac Neo, Rob, it'd be even more sacrilegious than your infamous Divine Sealing vote.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:05 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
I'd rather see G Darius or even Zanac Neo over them, just some extra variety where superfluous (mediocre) Cave entries are.
I vaguely recall having gone back and forth with either you or someone else on this point around last year's vote...

Don't think that was me.

if a voter believes (as I do) that one company's "superfluous" games are better than another company's "best," it's silly to vote for the latter just "for variety's sake."

I'm not saying they should vote for better games just because, I'm saying they should get better taste then vote for better, more original, interesting games. Maybe learn to play a game other than a Cave game, even if the graphics aren't as colorful.

After all, this is a "best of" list,

Exactly, no ESP Ra.De. please.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:13 pm

Rob wrote:I'm saying they should get better taste then vote for better, more original, interesting games.

In otherwords, "agree with me."

Seriously, what's "original and interesting" is very much in the eye of the beholder...in the same manner as Cave's built most of its catalog on neon bullets and multipliers, Takumi's tweaked around with various bullet reflectors, Raizing's messed with rank control and medaling, and most of Psikyo's catalog, until near the end of its lifespan, gave you the "pick it up when it flashes" thing. Obviously the above is simplified, and if you find one system more intriguing than the other then your vote ought to reflect it (no pun intended), but most any talk of objectively judging which game/game maker is "better" is tilting at windmills.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:22 pm

BulletMagnet wrote: And seriously, I think that if you ended up voting for Zanac Neo, Rob, it'd be even more sacrilegious than your infamous Divine Sealing vote.

Ha, that would be pretty fun. Not going to happen. And it shouldn't. No doubt Rob thinks, reasonably, that Zanac Neo really didn't advance the genre at all (certainly with respect to graphics, gameplay/scoring, etc.). Further, the game isn't challenging enough for him. No doubt it takes a step backward compared to Zanac in this respect. He would definitely owe us an explanation.

So why will it be toward the top of my list? For exactly the same reason that Harmful Park is, another game that really didn't do anything particularly novel. Fun music, graphics, and gameplay that all just fit together very nicely as a package. Well conceived, well executed, even if not particularly daring.

jp · Post by jp » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:27 pm

I predict...

Cave games being all over the list again... and me completely disagreeing with it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:44 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:Seriously, what's "original and interesting" is very much in the eye of the beholder...in the same manner as Cave's built most of its catalog on neon bullets and multipliers, Takumi's tweaked around with various bullet reflectors, Raizing's messed with rank control and medaling, and most of Psikyo's catalog, until near the end of its lifespan, gave you the "pick it up when it flashes" thing.

I think a better case could be made for Zanac Neo and G Darius. ESP Ra.De. has a busted scoring system and adds nothing to the continuous Cave formula, which makes it a weak link on the list. Whereas the rest of the list looks like a best of. Those other companies have a few representatives apiece - reasonable. I just think this is the one flaw in the collaborative shmups.com best of list. There'll probably be the same amount or more this year.

Obviously the above is simplified, and if you find one system more intriguing than the other then your vote ought to reflect it (no pun intended), but most any talk of objectively judging which game/game maker is "better" is tilting at windmills.

In my favorite types of games, I think only the best 1-2 representatives deserve the spots. IMO a single Giga Wing belongs on the top 25. Some might think all three, and they may have a point, but I'm going to stick with the first one this year.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:09 pm

Rob wrote:ESP Ra.De. has a busted scoring system and adds nothing to the continuous Cave formula, which makes it a weak link on the list.

I assume you mean the whole boss milking thing, which I can't argue with, but I honestly like the game otherwise. If nothing else, it's one of the relatively few Cave games in which dying or bombing doesn't completely kill your score.

There'll probably be the same amount or more this year.

The seething resentment against Cave that some around here tend to feel appears particularly strong right now...I might take you up on that bet, especially considering that ESP has fallen steadily over the past few years.

In my favorite types of games, I think only the best 1-2 representatives deserve the spots. IMO a single Giga Wing belongs on the top 25. Some might think all three, and they may have a point, but I'm going to stick with the first one this year.

That's your prerogative, though I still prefer to vote simply for which games I enjoy the most, variety be darned.

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:43 pm

Rob wrote: In my favorite types of games, I think only the best 1-2 representatives deserve the spots. IMO a single Giga Wing belongs on the top 25. Some might think all three, and they may have a point, but I'm going to stick with the first one this year.

I kind of agree. Shmup companies often don't deviate from I guess what they feel is their formula, and it can make for a list that doesn't represent the shmup genre as much as it should. For example, how many Strikers/Aerofighters-ish games did Psikyo put out? Aren't Mars Matrix and all the Gigawings heavily related even if some users prefer one shield mechanic over another? When is Milestone going to throw out their current Chaos Field/Rajirugi/Karous formula? How many Gradius-like games has Konami released? It's almost like there should be clusters of shmup-styles and series' on the list. Anyway, with 25 slots I'm sure it'll turn out fine.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:16 pm

louisg wrote:Well, what *isn't* a multi-directional shooter, if Bangai-O is one? This seems like a really vague classification.

I'm going to say it's totally wack that games like that and Robotron may be allowed, and yet games like Heavy Barrel- whose only differences from shmups are that they push-scroll and let the player shoot in every direction- are not. Bogus!

If Guwange was eligible last year, predating the new "Arena" rule, then I don't see why not, nor Ikari Warriors, which I was thinking of...

I think, just vote for it and if it's borderline then justify it in this thread.

How about Choplifter, Arcade or Apple 2 derivatives...?... hmm...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:55 pm

j^aws wrote: If Guwange was eligible last year, predating the new "Arena" rule

Huh?

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:02 pm

Rob wrote:
j^aws wrote: If Guwange was eligible last year, predating the new "Arena" rule
Huh?

Guwange is a multi-directional scroller but 'forced/ autoscroll', not push-scroll , like Ikari Warriors...

Jeffrey · Post by **Jeffrey** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:35 pm

What is the reason for the "forced scrolling" rule? This would rule out In the Hunt, for example.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:27 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
Rob wrote:ESP Ra.De. has a busted scoring system and adds nothing to the continuous Cave formula, which makes it a weak link on the list.
I assume you mean the whole boss milking thing, which I can't argue with, but I honestly like the game otherwise.

Yeah, even with that flaw, the scoring system is still the shit. Now Mushihime, yea that belongs nowhere near the top 25.

Also part of the problem is everyone votes for Cave games, but everyone votes for different Cave games. I voted for Dangun, DDP, DOJ, ESPGaluda, and ESPRaDe. But some other asshole might vote for Progear, Guwange, and Mushihime.

As for not voting for Garegga, Batrider, Raiden Fighters, Dragon Blaze, etc., I think those are all great games, but I don't play them much at all and don't have any interest for them really. So I don't think I can really judge them when I don't enjoy them enough to play them a lot.

Also why are people trying to convince others to vote for games that weren't in the top 25 last year? This ain't the Special Olympics, the best games are the best games, and games don't make it onto the top 25 for a reason; not enough people like them.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:01 pm

Dandy J wrote: the best games are the best games, and games don't make it onto the top 25 for a reason; not enough people like them.

These are truisms. Now the question becomes: why don't enough people like them? In the case of Dragon Blaze, there is no way for it to get the votes that Gunbird 2 gets, just because it is much less readily available. I would argue that DB is (subtly) superior in several ways.

Sometimes people overlook what are in fact the best games!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:12 pm

This ain't the Special Olympics, the best games are the best games, and games don't make it onto the top 25 for a reason; not enough people like them.

Yeah, this is more like American Idol or summin.

What is the reason for the "forced scrolling" rule?

I think there is a disgust for "what is a shmup" discussions, but this is how I see it and hope it clears it all up: there are rules and a game has a meet a certain number of them to be considered a shmup. Forced-scrolling is one of those rules. A few games seem to get by without meeting the forced-scrolling rule (In the Hunt, Fantasy Zone), so it must be a big one. If you start adding up deviations from a typical shooter (free-roaming, platforming, etc.) then it no longer feels enough like a shooter. There are few single disqualifying rules (like first person view).

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:28 pm

This ain't the Special Olympics, the best games are the best games, and games don't make it onto the top 25 for a reason; not enough people like them.

You're confusing good with popular, though I suppose popularity is the point of the whole poll

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:22 pm

professor ganson wrote:In the case of Dragon Blaze, there is no way for it to get the votes that Gunbird 2 gets, just because it is much less readily available.

Huh? About the only way DB is less available to play than GB2 is the fact that it never got a US console release...if memory serves it's available on the PS2 in both Japan and Europe, and is also playable in MAME, so I don't think in this game's case accessibility makes much of a difference...maybe in unemulated arcade-only games like Ketsui or the like, but not here.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:30 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
professor ganson wrote:In the case of Dragon Blaze, there is no way for it to get the votes that Gunbird 2 gets, just because it is much less readily available.
Huh? About the only way DB is less available to play than GB2 is the fact that it never got a US console release...if memory serves it's available on the PS2 in both Japan and Europe, and is also playable in MAME, so I don't think in this game's case accessibility makes much of a difference...maybe in unemulated arcade-only games like Ketsui or the like, but not here.

Huh? Gunbird 2 is available on the DC both in the US and in Jap. I found my copy at the local EB Games long before I had even heard about Dragon Blaze. Take a poll here: you will find that more have played GB 2 than DB.

Perhaps some might think that Gunbird 2 wins out because it is easier, but Dragon Blaze is only worse when you get to level 6, afaik.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:34 pm

professor ganson wrote:Huh? Gunbird 2 is available on the DC both in the US and in Jap. I found my copy at the local EB Games long before I had even heard about Dragon Blaze.

I know, but like I said, about the only real way that GB2 is easier to access than DB is the fact that the latter never got a US console release.

Perhaps some might think that Gunbird 2 wins out because it is easier, but Dragon Blaze is only worse when you get to level 6, afaik.

I dunno, I found both pretty darn hard, heh heh.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:55 pm

BulletMagnet wrote: I know, but like I said, about the only real way that GB2 is easier to access than DB is the fact that the latter never got a US console release.

GB2 has been easily available for 7 years in any territory, DB was MAME or PCB-only up until a few years ago. At a $20-$40 price difference. For import PS2. (Fakelores.)

But it did get a week spotlight in STGT, so we'll see.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:16 am

Dandy J wrote:Also why are people trying to convince others to vote for games that weren't in the top 25 last year? This ain't the Special Olympics, the best games are the best games, and games don't make it onto the top 25 for a reason; not enough people like them.

Just for fun, basically. I posted my top 25 last year, and it's not like every year I need to revamp it - it's not that every year is released top quality stuff that can achieve such a goal, imho of course.

So either I post the same top25 every time or I try a different approach to this poll.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:34 am

Zach Keene wrote:[42] [Brilliant Bronzerifle]
[23] [Gradius MCMVII]
[16] [Cosmos Field]
[15] [DoReMiPachi]
[8] [1914]
[4] [Super Robo Aleste II Turbo]

I laughed at the names of these examples

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:47 am

Turrican wrote: Just for fun, basically.

Yeah, it's fun, and it also seems to me somewhat worthwhile. Our top 25 list here is pretty useful for a couple reasons. Even though it's largely a popularity poll, popularity in this case tends to correlate with real quality. The most popular music is usually crap. Most popular videogames are a bit better, but still not great. When you get to a subgenre like shmups, we're talking about most popular among people who are a bit different, and if they're bothering to write and read about shmups they're probably a bit more reflective than most. That's part of what makes our list pretty good. It's like if you got a most popular noise rock list. That could be useful to people who are new to the genre. I know that our top 25 list was incredibly useful to me when I first got here. I was intent on playing everything on it, and I learned a lot doing so.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:36 am

Rob wrote:GB2 has been easily available for 7 years in any territory, DB was MAME or PCB-only up until a few years ago. At a $20-$40 price difference. For import PS2. (Fakelores.)

By comparison, look at some of the games which rate near the top of the list: DDP never made it outside of Japan, and is most widely available via emulation. RSG is in similar circumstances, except that it (to the best of my knowledge) still isn't emulated perfectly. Then there are ESP Ra.de, Guwange, etc., which remain arcade-only releases outside of MAME et al. And before you say it, no, not all of their success can be chalked up to hype/fanboyism.

I don't deny that availability has some effect on how the voting goes, but compared to the "disadvantage" that some games have in this area (most notably, as I said, stuff that was never ported or emulated), DB has relatively little to overcome, compared to GB2 or anything else.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:59 am

BulletMagnet wrote:And before you say it, no, not all of their success can be chalked up to hype/fanboyism.

Damn, you crushed my next point! DDP and RS are games every new person sees that they must play, and likely do.

I don't deny that availability has some effect on how the voting goes,

Ketsui is the perfect example of it having more than some. A semi-mythical Cave game that doesn't even make the top 50? Below R-Type Final.

Below R-Type Final.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:22 am

Rob wrote: Below R-Type Final.

Not the best example for BulletMagnet 'cause he likes R-Type Final.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:22 am

Rob wrote:DDP and RS are games every new person sees that they must play, and likely do.

As I said, some effect, but not as drastic as some seem to suggest.

Ketsui is the perfect example of it having more than some. A semi-mythical Cave game that doesn't even make the top 50?

For what it's worth, I have played it (though not at great length, admittedly), and despite having voted for several Cave titles in my Top 25 before I wasn't taken enough with it, at least immediately, to take it into consideration this year. Maybe that'll change if I play it more, but who knows.

Not the best example for BulletMagnet 'cause he likes R-Type Final.

Actually I'm not a huge R-Type fan in general (not a hater either though): you might be thinking of someone else.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:27 am

Rob wrote: ESP Ra.De. has a busted scoring system and adds nothing to the continuous Cave formula, which makes it a weak link on the list.

Ra.De.'s score system is only busted if you're obsessed with sucking every last point out of the game (which, as someone posted a while back, the designers figured people wouldn't bother with because of how boring it is. Guess they didn't realize how score obsessed people are. See also checkpoint abuse in older games like R Type and Raiden. It's definitely an oversight that breaks the game for some people but in no way ruins the game for me and many others. Even then, it's not really broken because there's no indefinite boss milking or anything like that that makes score competitions pointless (Oh lord of puns, you shine on thee).

It's absolutely unlike any other Cave game in scoring because of the varied nature of the score system so I don't see how you can say it adds nothing to the formula. You have to combo enemies with the bubble shot, collect items that fall from cancelled bullets and dead enemies to both extend your timer and recharge your bomb meter, use your bomb shield to generate items and stall the timer and bomb enemies to extend the timer. Doing this across whole stages and pulling 16x through big sections of the stages is pretty damn difficult and the game gives you a lot of ways to approach the stages.