5th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

Zach Keene · Post by **Zach Keene** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:37 am

Results from previous years:

2005 Results
2004 Results
2003 Results
2002 Results

Turrican should be along shortly with the nifty comparison charts.

Edit: voting thread is here.

bVork · Post by **bVork** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:57 am

Do multi-scrolling games like Defender and Stargate count as shooters?

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:32 am

I wonder if there's going to be a whole lot of change; there haven't been many new releases. But maybe some old ones will get more attention this time, like Nexzr.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:38 am

The STGT might increase votes for certain games (Batrider).

I wonder what percentage of people will screw up their votes this time. I'll guess 10-20%.

Zach Keene · Post by **Zach Keene** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:13 pm

bVork wrote:Do multi-scrolling games like Defender and Stargate count as shooters?

Yes.

Monk 0 Nuggets · Post by **Monk 0 Nuggets** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:47 pm

This is my first year being around for this thing. Although thats true, I want to participate, but I don't feel that I have been playing long enough or played enough shmups to be able to make an educated decision on the matter.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:11 pm

And here's some interesting stats. So far, there have been 26 arcade entries and 15 domestic ones. Cave leads the arcades with six different entries, while the domestic front is split between Konami, Technosoft and Compile, Konami taking the lead with 4 if you count Gradius V as a Konami game.

Arcade entries:

Cave (7): DP, DDP, DDP-DOJ, ESP RADE, ESP Galuda, Guwange, Mushihime-sama
Psikyo (5): Strikers 1945 II, Sengoku Blade, Gunbird, Gunbird 2, Zero Gunner 2
Raizing/8ing (3): Battle Garegga, Soukyugurentai, Batrider
Takumi (2): Marsmatrix, Gigawing
Treasure (2): Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga
1 entry each: Salamander (Konami), R-Type (irem), Raiden DX (Seibu), Batsugun (Toaplan), Rayforce (Taito), Shikigami no Shiro II (Alfa Systems), Border Down (G.Rev)

Domestic entries:

Konami (4): Gradius Gaiden, Gradius III Snes, Axelay, Gradius V [573/Treasure]
Compile (3): Musha Aleste, Zanac Neo, Gunhed
Technosoft (3): Thunderforce III, Thunderforce IV, Thunderforce V
Hudson Soft (3): Gate of Thunder, Winds of Thunder, Soldier Blade
1 entry each: Einhander (Square), R-Type Delta (Irem)

2002: with eleven domestic entries, this year feels different from the recent trend. Also, it sports some interesting titles that were never voted again: Gate Of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Gunhed and Soldier Blade. It's safe to say that 2002 was the peak of PCE/Duo and Hudson Soft love.

2003: in 2003 both Axelay and Gradius Gaiden receive boost, the former getting into the top ten. Battle Garegga is much reconsidered, while Psikyo's crowning jewel (S1945II) slumps several positions, surpassed by Gunbird 2 which will continue to gain popularity. Also noticeable is the classic R-Type coin-op which climbs enough spots to be on the top ten.

2004: even in 2004, domestic releases manage to keep three spots in the top ten, but while Axelay and Musha are sadly gone for good, Gradius Gaiden and V arrive. Gradius V gets first domestic place, usually held by TFIII, which however still makes into the top ten. Marsmatrix and Gaiden are the surprise climbers of the year.

2005:
In 2005 two very high rated games, Gunbird 2 and Soukyugurentai, went down several places. Mushihimesama was the only new game but at time very few had played it, so it didn't score much. Perhaps more interesting is the return of both Garegga and Guwange after one year hiatus. Speaking of classic series, Raiden DX went down from its already lackluster position, the Thunderforces went all down with TFV getting out of chart - while R-Type seemed to get a little more attention. In the end we could say the high number of voters only reinforced the current trend in favor of the recent arcades.

Games that kept falling:

Thunderforce III (2, 3, 6, 9)
ESP RA.DE. (4, 10, 21, 25)
Donpachi (7, 11, 17, OOC)

Games that kept rising:

Radiant Silvergun (10, 6, 4, 4)

random trivia:

Oldest titles in chart: Salamander (1986), R-Type (1987), Thunderforce III (1989)
Cute'em up factor on this chart - near zero? (See Gunbird2 debate)

Home computer (C64, MSX etc) love on this chart - zero

Western developed shmups on this chart - zero

8bit shmups love on this chart - zero

Toaplan love - near zero (Batsugun) (not to mention Namco, Capcom, Success nowhere to be found)

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:25 pm

Turrican wrote: Cute'em up factor on this chart - zero
Home computer (C64, MSX etc) love on this chart - zero
Western developed shmups on this chart - zero
8bit shmups love on this chart - zero
Toaplan love - near zero (Batsugun) (not to mention Namco, Capcom, Success nowhere to be found)

Hmm, no cute shooters indeed. Maybe a vote or two for Magical Chase would be nice. Or a Cotton game. Or Parodius...

And no 8-bit? Recca needs more votes!

Edge · Post by **Edge** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:33 pm

Ceph wrote: Hmm, no cute shooters indeed. Maybe a vote or two for Magical Chase would be nice. Or a Cotton game. Or Parodius...

Yeah, none of the Parodius games even made it to the Honorable Mention list last year. Hope this turns out differently this year. Otherwise let's see if there's finally something new in the top 4. Maybe I should open another RSG is overrated thread, to manipulate the poll.

ahnslaught · Post by **ahnslaught** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:42 pm

Yay! I've been looking forward to this one, since I really didn't have enough background the last time around to participate in any meaningful way.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:03 pm

Ceph wrote:
And no 8-bit? Recca needs more votes!

An 8bit game historically had some serious chance to enter the top 25, so I think it's a good reminder for all the voters to have a look at this thread:

To Salamander fans: let's choose one and vote for that!

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:41 pm

Turrican wrote:
Ceph wrote:
And no 8-bit? Recca needs more votes!
An 8bit game historically had some serious chance to enter the top 25, so I think it's a good reminder for all the voters to have a look at this thread:

To Salamander fans: let's choose one and vote for that!

Recca is far more impressive. Besides, NES Salamander is a port (even though there are some changes) of an arcade game with superior graphics and sound running on better hardware.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:02 pm

8bit you say?... Stargate FTW!

bVork · Post by **bVork** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:15 pm

Ceph wrote:Recca is far more impressive. Besides, NES Salamander is a port (even though there are some changes) of an arcade game with superior graphics and sound running on better hardware.

Yes, Recca is amazing.

No, Salamander "ports" to 8-bit systems should not be discounted - Konami did their typical thing and built new games based on the ideas and appearance of the arcade title.

Like last year, I'm including the Famicom port of Salamander in my list.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:26 pm

Ceph wrote:Recca is far more impressive.

Salamander is far more stylish, and far more influential.

Recca is impressive in a "look what I've been able to squeeze out from the NES hardware" sense, but as an overall game it doesn't compare imho.

Plus, I was trying to be realistic - Salamander in its NES incarnation had some chances in the previous polls, Recca didn't.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:45 pm

Rob wrote: I wonder what percentage of people will screw up their votes this time. I'll guess 10-20%.

OK, guys who post the system - you don't need to do that unless you are specifying between different versions.

Dale - games are also in brackets. 33%

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:57 pm

Rob wrote:
Rob wrote: I wonder what percentage of people will screw up their votes this time. I'll guess 10-20%.
OK, guys who post the system - you don't need to do that unless you are specifying between different versions.

Dale - games are also in brackets. 33%

Is there a 'strict' definition on "specifying" between different versions? E.g. Image Fight (SAT) has a slightly annoying screen size difference from the AC version. This means that you see enemies slightly later depending on adjustment in the options menu?

...Or Stargate and it's control scheme or Hyper Duel and it's Saturn control scheme etc?... Or DC Twinkle Star Sprites from the Saturn version with minor slowdown?

Just wondering, it seems easier just to name them to be on the safe side?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:29 pm

j^aws wrote:
Rob wrote:
Rob wrote: I wonder what percentage of people will screw up their votes this time. I'll guess 10-20%.
OK, guys who post the system - you don't need to do that unless you are specifying between different versions.

Dale - games are also in brackets. 33%
Is there a 'strict' definition on "specifying" between different versions? E.g. Image Fight (SAT) has a slightly annoying screen size difference from the AC version. This means that you see enemies slightly later depending on adjustment in the options menu?

...Or Stargate and it's control scheme or Hyper Duel and it's Saturn control scheme etc?... Or DC Twinkle Star Sprites from the Saturn version with minor slowdown?

Just wondering, it seems easier just to name them to be on the safe side?

Minor differences like slowdown are irrelevant, I think. Naming them different things probably separates them in the tallying process, so for less manual work it's best to only do it when there are notable differences. Like Salamander/Life Force are accepted as separate. Old console ports vs. arcade are usually different games. In recent years Mars Matrix cuts it close... but it looks like they count as one.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:19 pm

I predict that G-Darius and maby one Shrine Maiden title will make it's debute on the list.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:32 pm

j^aws wrote: Is there a 'strict' definition on "specifying" between different versions? E.g. Image Fight (SAT) has a slightly annoying screen size difference from the AC version. This means that you see enemies slightly later depending on adjustment in the options menu?

...Or Stargate and it's control scheme or Hyper Duel and it's Saturn control scheme etc?... Or DC Twinkle Star Sprites from the Saturn version with minor slowdown?

Just wondering, it seems easier just to name them to be on the safe side?

Use your judgment. It's a gray line but I'm sure you can get a feel for it. I can't think of a single port that handles visuals, sounds, and speed with a 100% arcade perfect translation. If you feel pedantic pointing it out, it's probably not important.

Hyper Duel is indeed quite iffy since the SS remake does change the original gameplay to a fair degree (and obviously the visuals and sound are quite different). However, it never gets many votes anyway and the precedence has been set to just keep it 1 game so, unless Zach objects, you may as well keep it the same.

LSU · Post by **LSU** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:00 pm

Is Bangaioh eligible, or would that fall into the catagory of a borderliner? (That would be my guess, but nonetheless I'd like to vote for it if it's eligible.)

Oh and what's the best way to list the Fardraut mode over the Arcade mode if I want to vote for that on the PC Engine version of Xevious? The card is kind of a compilation in that respect. Something like this..? [Xevious: Fardraut Densetsu (Fardraut mode) PC Engine] (It's a bit of a mouthful...)

Thanks.

Sonic R · Post by **Sonic R** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:00 pm

I do believe that Recca is the pinnacle of original/exclusive 8-bit shooties. I hope that maybe it can make the list as a representative for 8-bit.

It would be nice to see a cute em up crack the list but that may be wishful thinking.

Anyways I've missed previous voting and would love to participate this year!

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:58 pm

Sonic R wrote:I do believe that Recca is the pinnacle of original/exclusive 8-bit shooties. I hope that maybe it can make the list as a representative for 8-bit.

I think that wouldn't be a true victory for 8bits - as that game was too ahead (for better or for worse) of its time to be considered a representative of that generation of games. I could still vote it of course, replacing Dodonpachi with it.

LSU wrote:Oh and what's the best way to list the Fardraut mode over the Arcade mode if I want to vote for that on the PC Engine version of Xevious? The card is kind of a compilation in that respect. Something like this..? [Xevious: Fardraut Densetsu (Fardraut mode) PC Engine] (It's a bit of a mouthful...)Thanks.

I think the best way to vote for it is just cast your vote for the game. As the other mode is simply a port of the arcade game, it's pretty obvious that if you vote for the PCEngine version you mean to vote for its peculiar content, namely the Fardraut mode.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:21 pm

Nuke wrote:I predict that G-Darius and maby one Shrine Maiden title will make it's debute on the list.

Getting's ZUN up there is one of my three goals when it comes to "getting the vote out" this year: the other two are to advance the later Cottons and the Vasaras.

MadSteelDarkness · Post by **MadSteelDarkness** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:27 am

Is it that time of year again already? Huh.

*blows dust off of sticks*

Also: I predict Dodonpachi will be knocked to second or third place. Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I dunno, it's just a feeling...

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:31 am

Ceph wrote:
Turrican wrote: Cute'em up factor on this chart - zero
Home computer (C64, MSX etc) love on this chart - zero
Western developed shmups on this chart - zero
8bit shmups love on this chart - zero
Toaplan love - near zero (Batsugun) (not to mention Namco, Capcom, Success nowhere to be found)
Hmm, no cute shooters indeed. Maybe a vote or two for Magical Chase would be nice. Or a Cotton game. Or Parodius...

And no 8-bit? Recca needs more votes!

Gunbird 2 might be classified as a cute em up; only problem is that it's not very cute. Harmful Park will be on my list once again.

ktownhero · Post by **ktownhero** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:40 am

I'm new here, how does the voting work?

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:56 am

ktownhero wrote:I'm new here, how does the voting work?

Details on how to vote are here:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=12928

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:01 am

professor ganson wrote:Gunbird 2 might be classified as a cute em up

I think it's more in the "fantasy shmup" category. It depicts a world of fantasy with anime characters but besides the cute look of some of them there's little cuteness in-game.

Thanks for your Harmful Park support but since no cute'em up made it to the honorable mentions, the situation is very serious.

Perhaps we should use this thread to launch a:

PARODIUS SECRET COVENANT

The rules are simple: we just look for affiliates who want to fight for the cute'em up cause, then we settle to cast our vote on a title we agree. Who wants to join?

Paroders of the world, unite!

P.S. @LSU: you need to specify the system for Fardraut Densetsu, as an all-different MSX2 game shares the same title.

Edge · Post by **Edge** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:04 am

Turrican wrote: Perhaps we should use this thread to launch a:

PARODIUS SECRET COVENANT

The rules are simple: we just look for affiliates who want to fight for the cute'em up cause, then we settle to cast our vote on a title we agree. Who wants to join?

I just voted for Sexy Pardodius, Parodius Da! and the original Cotton, like last year.