MAME and LCD

[alysa]

Ever since I upgraded my old CRT to a nice large LCD MAME seems blurry now. How would one make MAME look nice using a LCD? If it matters the natural rez is 1280*1024.

[ktownhero]

Mame is not running in the native resolution. Welcome to "why LCDs suck 101."

EDIT: I'm not familiar enough with Mame to tell you whether there's a way to have the games upscaled to that native res w/o them being super small. Hopefully somebody else will be able to help you with that.

[Ed Oscuro]

Shmups look great on my not-too-old 17 (or 19, can't remember exactly) LCD, not at all blurry. There is an odd ripple/waving effect on patterned things moving down the screen (the canvas tops of trucks at one of the level breaks in Fire Shark, for example - I think these are visible in the first level), but this actually happens on my professional 21" Trinitron CRT as well.

LCDs don't do well at different resolutions than those they were made for; it's just a drawback of the technology - but I haven't seen this effect. My LCD monitor won't display resolutions outside its range, for one, but this has never appeared as a problem in MAME, for me.

If it is actually blurry, your default display settings within MAME may be to blame, although I bet you've already considered this.

Otherwise, well, sorry. A good CRT is the shmupper's best friend. You'll have to ditch your setup

[icycalm]

Ever since I downgraded my old CRT to a nice large LCD MAME seems blurry now. How would one make MAME look nice using a LCD? If it matters the natural rez is 1280*1024.

Fixed.

[brumma]

I also have a 19" LCD with a native resolution of 1280x1024. If your system can handle it, you need to set the display resolution of MAME to match your display's native resolution. A lot of games that I am running seem to have an original size of 320x240, which does not divide evenly into 1280x1024. However, if I set the resolution in MAME to 1280x960 the monitor itself doesn't do any scaling, and I end up with slight black borders at top and bottom. I also find that if I set the scanline option to around 75% it looks much better, and at the 1280x960 screen resolution the scanlines don't look odd. The point here is that whatever you can do to prevent your display from having to do any scaling will yield the best results.

I am away from my home system, so I can't be more specific right now. If you need more details on my settings, just say so and I'll post them later on this evening.

[gameoverDude]

Used together with scanlines, the Bitmap Prescale option helps keep the graphics from looking too blurry when you upscale to the LCD's resolution. Raise the BP setting until you're satisfied with the image.

[Bishamon]

I've been using a 17" LCD (with pivot for tate goodness) for quite a few years now, and the results are simply fantastic! You have to play with the video settings in Mame to get it looking right, but once you do, it should look excellent. I can't remember exactly which options I used, but I believe you should check 'enforce aspect ratio' and set the aspect ratio to 5:4 (for 1280x1024), select 'stretch using hardware', use DirectDraw and triple buffering, etc. Basically, play with the 'rendering' options in the Advanced tab until you like what you see; not all video cards/monitors look best with the same settings.

[GaijinPunch]

You have to play with the video settings in Mame to get it looking right, but once you do, it should look excellent.

-Get a low res monitor
-Get an AVGA card
-Punch yourself in the balls for not trying it earlier.

You can use fake scanlines and whatnot to help alleviate the shittiness that is playing old games on new hardware. It is still emulating the old look (pun intended).

[FRO]

Not sure what the big deal is w/ the LCD-hating, but I play MAME on my 15" widescreen LCD on my laptop & I think it looks just fine. Granted, I'm not one of those who feels you have to perfectly replicate the graphics the way they looked on the original RGB monitor, but in terms of being able to see what's going on & play the game, my LCD works fine. As does my 19" LCD at home.

[GaijinPunch]

but in terms of being able to see what's going on & play the game, my LCD works fine. As does my 19" LCD at home.

That kind of sums it up there I'd say. "see what's going on & play the game" versus having it look shit-hot are quite different. I play so few games these days that aren't old as shit, I want them to look right. Since I get very little, I have the time to be anal about how they look.

[D]

I've been using a 17" LCD (with pivot for tate goodness) for quite a few years now, and the results are simply fantastic! You have to play with the video settings in Mame to get it looking right, but once you do, it should look excellent. I can't remember exactly which options I used, but I believe you should check 'enforce aspect ratio' and set the aspect ratio to 5:4 (for 1280x1024), select 'stretch using hardware', use DirectDraw and triple buffering, etc. Basically, play with the 'rendering' options in the Advanced tab until you like what you see; not all video cards/monitors look best with the same settings.

Agreed, he must be running mame in 1024X768 or some default resolution. Perhaps 800X600. Don't know the default resoltion in MAME, but try to change to indeed the highest resolution (native) your monitor runs in. Or perhaps some silly filter in MAME is turned on.
In some emus it is possible to run something in 3X/4X native resolution, this would result in borders, but small borders. And for crt owners, they would just have to readjust their monitor a bit and have full screen!

[icycalm]

The vast majority of people who don't use the correct hardware for playing games fall in these two categories:

A. Those who have never used the correct hardware, so they've no idea what they are missing.

B. Those who can't afford to buy the correct hardware.


My guess is that FRO and others in this thread simply have no idea what they are missing. If someone showed them then they would go straight out and buy the correct equipment right away, except of course if they couldn't afford to.

[ktownhero]

The vast majority of people who don't use the correct hardware for playing games fall in these two categories:

A. Those who have never used the correct hardware, so they've no idea what they are missing.

B. Those who can't afford to buy the correct hardware.


My guess is that FRO and others in this thread simply have no idea what they are missing. If someone showed them then they would go straight out and buy the correct equipment right away, except of course if they couldn't afford to.

I agree 100%. I had that revelation when I got a VGA box for my DC.

[D]

The vast majority of people who don't use the correct hardware for playing games fall in these two categories:

A. Those who have never used the correct hardware, so they've no idea what they are missing.

B. Those who can't afford to buy the correct hardware.


My guess is that FRO and others in this thread simply have no idea what they are missing. If someone showed them then they would go straight out and buy the correct equipment right away, except of course if they couldn't afford to.

Remember that REAL scanlines can be emulated if the image is stretched on a crt using the 3X/4X native res. method I described. Problem is that if you also have to stretch horizontally that it starts to look weird-ish.
To Icy Calm, I know what you mean, but if they did know that would mean pcb and jamma equipment would sky rocket.
That wouldn't be good for nobody. Still I too feel that lo-res pcb's deserve more respect than the average mamer gives it.
I don't know how I got pulled into a thread about emulation in the first place.

[neorichieb1971]

The vast majority of people who don't use the correct hardware for playing games fall in these two categories:

A. Those who have never used the correct hardware, so they've no idea what they are missing.

B. Those who can't afford to buy the correct hardware.


My guess is that FRO and others in this thread simply have no idea what they are missing. If someone showed them then they would go straight out and buy the correct equipment right away, except of course if they couldn't afford to.

I assume that relates to A more than it does B.. VGA boxes cost about $10
I agree 100%. I had that revelation when I got a VGA box for my DC.

[angrycoder]

Ever since I upgraded my old CRT to a nice large LCD MAME seems blurry now. How would one make MAME look nice using a LCD? If it matters the natural rez is 1280*1024.

Assuming you are using Mame32, these settings should help


select Default Game Options from the Options menu.

Display tab:
check Enforce Aspect Ratio

Advanced Tab:
check Use Direct Draw, Wait for Vertical Sync, Match Game Refresh Rate
under resolution, select the native rez for your monitor

Direct3D tab:
check Use Direct3d, texture management
UNCHECK Use bilinear filtering
if you want to enable scanlines, select them from the Effects drop down box on the direct3d tab.


It won't look as nice as running in the native rez on a VGA montior, but it will get rid of all the bluriness.

[GaijinPunch]

I know what you mean, but if they did know that would mean pcb and jamma equipment would sky rocket.

TV or Monitor w/ RGB + MAME + AVGA Card =
The first one is the hard part in the US.

[brumma]

TV or Monitor w/ RGB + MAME + AVGA Card =
The first one is the hard part in the US.

I actually own a lo-res RGB Sony PVM that I run Neo-Geo and some Atomiswave games on (anything by SNK looks like crap in hi-res). Unfortunately, it is only a 13" monitor, although that makes it easier to tate. My current video card only has a separate output for s-video, which doesn't look so hot and still requires fake scanlines.Can you enlighten me a little bit on the AVGA card, how it works, and what settings you would use, etc.? Can something like this be used to make the PS2 Cave ports look better as well?

[angrycoder]

The vast majority of people who don't use the correct hardware for playing games fall in these two categories:

A. Those who have never used the correct hardware, so they've no idea what they are missing.

B. Those who can't afford to buy the correct hardware.


My guess is that FRO and others in this thread simply have no idea what they are missing. If someone showed them then they would go straight out and buy the correct equipment right away, except of course if they couldn't afford to.

Oh come on, if you were truly hardcore you would have a jamma cab and hundreds of PCBs, all with their original boxes, bubble wrap, artwork, posters, cell phone cards, stickers, spine cards, instructions, action figures, etc. And you would have duplicate copies of all those PCBs in mint unopened boxes displayed in glass cases. And your house would be made entirely out of disassembled arcade cabs. And you would only play the games on their hardest settings.

I swear, you guys are all such posers.

[ktownhero]

The vast majority of people who don't use the correct hardware for playing games fall in these two categories:

A. Those who have never used the correct hardware, so they've no idea what they are missing.

B. Those who can't afford to buy the correct hardware.


My guess is that FRO and others in this thread simply have no idea what they are missing. If someone showed them then they would go straight out and buy the correct equipment right away, except of course if they couldn't afford to.

Oh come on, if you were truly hardcore you would have a jamma cab and hundreds of PCBs, all with their original boxes, bubble wrap, artwork, posters, cell phone cards, stickers, spine cards, instructions, action figures, etc. And you would have duplicate copies of all those PCBs in mint unopened boxes displayed in glass cases. And your house would be made entirely out of disassembled arcade cabs. And you would only play the games on their hardest settings.

I swear, you guys are all such posers.

WTF? Slow your horse down there buddy, I don't think what he wrote was meant as a personal insult to you. He's just pointing out the extremely noticeable difference in quality you get when you have the appropriate hardware. Something that is TRUE. He's just saying, "if you have the money, go for the correct hardware; it is worth it."

[Ed Oscuro]

If everybody ran out and got the correct hardware, maybe it would be manufactured in a respectable volume

[angrycoder]

WTF? Slow your horse down there buddy, I don't think what he wrote was meant as a personal insult to you. He's just pointing out the extremely noticeable difference in quality you get when you have the appropriate hardware. Something that is TRUE. He's just saying, "if you have the money, go for the correct hardware; it is worth it."

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/joke

[ktownhero]

WTF? Slow your horse down there buddy, I don't think what he wrote was meant as a personal insult to you. He's just pointing out the extremely noticeable difference in quality you get when you have the appropriate hardware. Something that is TRUE. He's just saying, "if you have the money, go for the correct hardware; it is worth it."

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/joke

I completely took what you wrote the wrong way. My head is officially jammed up my ass, and I am going to hobble away.

[Monk 0 Nuggets]

I thought I smelled the strong scent of sarcasm. I also was getting a feeling someone didn't have the sense of smell.

[alysa]

Thanks for the advise. It looks alot nicer now. Not sure which setting helped the most. But now I can hold off a bit longer before going the arcade/PCB route. I did notice that I could iher use Direct Draw or Direct 3D but not both, so I went with Direct 3D way.

Assuming you are using Mame32, these settings should help


select Default Game Options from the Options menu.

Display tab:
check Enforce Aspect Ratio

Advanced Tab:
check Use Direct Draw, Wait for Vertical Sync, Match Game Refresh Rate
under resolution, select the native rez for your monitor

Direct3D tab:
check Use Direct3d, texture management
UNCHECK Use bilinear filtering
if you want to enable scanlines, select them from the Effects drop down box on the direct3d tab.


It won't look as nice as running in the native rez on a VGA montior, but it will get rid of all the bluriness.[/quote]

[PC Engine Fan X!]

TV or Monitor w/ RGB + MAME + AVGA Card =
The first one is the hard part in the US.

I actually own a lo-res RGB Sony PVM that I run Neo-Geo and some Atomiswave games on (anything by SNK looks like crap in hi-res). Unfortunately, it is only a 13" monitor, although that makes it easier to tate. My current video card only has a separate output for s-video, which doesn't look so hot and still requires fake scanlines.Can you enlighten me a little bit on the AVGA card, how it works, and what settings you would use, etc.? Can something like this be used to make the PS2 Cave ports look better as well?

For brumma,

What Gaijin Punch is referring is this PC setup:

1.) Any respectable PC powerful enough to run DOSMame, Mame32, Raine, etc.

2.) An installed AVGA (meaning the Ultimarc produced "Arcade VGA Card" that can output at a true arcade RGB sync rate of 15.7 kHz) inside your PC tower.

3.) A decent TV monitor or (multi-sync) RGB monitor capable of accepting 15.7 kHz horizontal sync rate signal from the above mentioned "Arcade VGA" Card. (Gaijin Punch uses a Japanese Sony Wega TV monitor that has built-in input for Japanese RGB 21-pin cable interface -- those prized Japanese Sony Wega monitors are, indeed, hard-to-find in the USA...American Sony Wega TV monitors don't have such Japanese RGB input = no support for true low-resolution 15.7 kHz arcade signal) ^_~

4.) Properly configure the chosen arcade emulation programs + Arcade VGA Card for best screen output...

5.) You're now all set -- enjoy your new Mame32/Raine/etc. equipped PC with a proper RGB monitor. ^_~

The above setup will not work with your PS2 hardware nor will it improve the ugly "interlaced" Taito/Cave PS2 shmup ports -- your best bet would to either go with a full-sized Japanese arcade cabinet or with a smaller & more compact Supergun setup route + analog RGB monitor + your favorite Cave shmup Jamma PCB titles = pure arcade shmup heaven! ^_~

Of course, the above arcade cabinet or Supergun route will set you back quite dearly -- nothing compares to playing with real arcade hardware/software with an CRT-based analog RGB monitor..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[GaijinPunch]

@brumma

PC Engine Fan X pretty much summed it up. You could always get a larger PVM (2530, for example) to play your games. It's what I used just before my recent relocation. I sold my monitor and cables to TWE, who's quite happy w/ it if I'm not mistaken.

Your S-Video out on your current video card is almost certainly interlaced. Fake scanlines won't work... might even damage your eyes if you turn them on.

[brumma]

Got it. I was really only referring to the AVGA card GaijinPunch mentioned. I wasn't familiar with it and thought it might be some sort of downsampler card that I could also feed external sources through. I am familiar with all of the other issues regarding the display of 15kHz vs. 31kHz, etc., etc. I am quite familiar with all that video standards stuff--as mentioned, I do own Naomi and Atomiswave boards (which output both 15kHz and 31kHz) as well as a Neo-Geo systems (which is good old lo-res).

I have contemplated purchasing a supergun (or building my own), but the exorbitant prices of some of the Cave boards has put me off. Naomi games are expensive enough! I have wanted a cabinet for a while now, but there really isn't a whole lot of extra space in an NYC apartment--same for a larger monitor at this point.

It is a shame about the US Wega sets--I have a 34" widescreen and anything HD looks awesome, but old-school looks like absolute shite. That's what led me to buy the PVM in the first place--Neo-Geo fighters have been my passion for a long time. 'Til now that is!

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Got it. I was really only referring to the AVGA card GaijinPunch mentioned. I wasn't familiar with it and thought it might be some sort of downsampler card that I could also feed external sources through. I am familiar with all of the other issues regarding the display of 15kHz vs. 31kHz, etc., etc. I am quite familiar with all that video standards stuff--as mentioned, I do own Naomi and Atomiswave boards (which output both 15kHz and 31kHz) as well as a Neo-Geo systems (which is good old lo-res).

I have contemplated purchasing a supergun (or building my own), but the exorbitant prices of some of the Cave boards has put me off. Naomi games are expensive enough! I have wanted a cabinet for a while now, but there really isn't a whole lot of extra space in an NYC apartment--same for a larger monitor at this point.

It is a shame about the US Wega sets--I have a 34" widescreen and anything HD looks awesome, but old-school looks like absolute shite. That's what led me to buy the PVM in the first place--Neo-Geo fighters have been my passion for a long time. 'Til now that is!

For brumma,

Your next best alternative is to pick up either one of the four different Microcom produced upscan convertors: XRGB-1, XRGB-2, XRGB-2+ or the XRGB-3 as they all accept external sources, primarily through Japanese RGB setup and displayed on a 31 kHz PC monitor setup and even has an option for "fake scanlines" for those cool arcade PCBs & game consoles.

It's the XRGB-2 model that has exclusive support for the cool Toaplan and Seibu Kaihatsu produced arcade Jamma PCBs -- try to get that one would be your best bet. No other XRGB upscan convertor has that type of dedicated arcade PCB support (like the XRGB-2) and will result in the dreaded "slowly rolling screen" on PC monitor (when using those particular arcade PCBs) that can't be fixed anyways. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[brumma]

I've already looked into the XRGBs to upscan video to my LCD, but they don't do 1280x1024 without lag. Anything less than native rez would get scaled by the monitor and look like crap.

The AVGA card seems like a viable option for MAME, but I don't really want to replace my current video card. The PS2 situation seems pretty hopeless though...