Must-have Saturn Shmups?

[BulletMagnet]

I do recall seeing more copies of Garegga on eBay some time back, these days it's all but vanished...maybe it's just a lull, but we'll hafta wait and see. The price does seem to be going up though...

[Ganelon]

Nah, the price has been going down. It used to consistently fetch $80-90. In recent months, I've seen it for $65-85 (w/o shipping). It isn't too easy to find though.

[BulletMagnet]

Hm, maybe I just haven't been looking as long...I used to see it go consistently for 60-70 not long ago, nowadays it's 70 or more, in most cases...hopefully you're right though, as it'll make it easier for me to eventually pick up, heh heh.

[BrianC]

Even if they are all must-haves, I'd see a JAMMA Supergun as more valuable than the Saturn. If a supergun is out of one's price range, Saturn shmups is not exactly a great cost-saving alternative.

Layer Section, Gunbird, Darius Gaiden, Twinbee Deluxe Pack, and a few others are pretty cheap at about 10-30 dollars. Dodonpachi, Batsugun, Salamander Delxue Pack, Gradius Dexlue Pack, Parodius Dexule Pack and a couple of other are mid ranged at about 40-50 dollars. The Saturn itself is pretty cheap too. With the supergun, a single game would probably cost more than the Saturn. The Saturn has many great non-shmup games too.

Right, but nearly all of the games you just mentioned are also available for PS1 (for similar prices, methinks). I'm not saying 'sell the Saturn' by any means, but in these threads it's good to keep in mind that: much of the "32-bit" shmup releases hit both Saturn and PSX; PSX has more exclusive, top-notch shmups vs. Saturn (!); and if you've got JAMMA at home, the fact that the "big" Saturn titles were ported to the console doesn't isn't in and of itself make a "must-have" scenario for the console version of the game (though seven-button RSG is nice...).

You know, there is a reason I mentioned multiplatform games. Many of them are easier to find and cheaper on the Saturn (yes, I checked). Yes, most of the Saturn exclusives are ported arcade games, but did you notice that I purposely didn't mention the more expensive games?

Even with a couple of the more expensive games, the Saturn is still cheaper in the long run than getting a Super Gun and some PCBs. PCBs aren't cheap. Yes, the PSX has a ton of great games, but many of the arcade ports did turn out better on Saturn. The PSX got a ton of great arcade ports too (some of which aren't on Saturn), has more and better true exclusives, and most of the Konami Deluxe Packs turned out good on it (though the Gradius and Salamader ones are harder to find than the Saturn versions and the Parodius one is inferior to the Saturn version), though.

This agument is pointless. Yes, arcade perfect is usually better, but you often miss out on extras and other stuff. Also, getting the Saturn versions of an arcade game is most often cheaper than the arcade version (probably not with Raidant Silvergun, though that version does have some exclusive features). Some Saturn games like Batsugun and Sengoku Blade are arcade perfect or very close too. Saturn exclusives aren't worthless just becuase they were ported from the arcade. Console games take up less space than PCBs and the Saturn has more than enough quality shmups to make it worth getting.

The Saturn also has all of the MSX packs in one collection instead of multiple collections like on PS1.

[alpha5099]

Some Saturn games like Batsugun and Sengoku Blade are arcade perfect too.

I hate to split such an asinine hair, but I must point out that Batsugun is actually not arcade perfect, and in fact optimized. The slowdown from the arcade version is all but eliminated. Some claim this actually has a detrimental effect, as the slowdown in the later stages was often beneficial, offering the player more time to deal with large assaults of bullets.

While we're on the subject, how dare some developers not put Wait On/Off options in their games. Either don't fiddle with the inherant slowdown of the original, or give us the option to put it back in. Sure, I'm being anal, but I'd like to play a game that is as close to the arcade as possible.

That previous statement pretty much completely invalidates the defense I just gave DonPachi over at the GameFAQs Saturn board.

[jp]

JP, are you saying that Planet Joker and Cho Aniki are the only shmups on the Saturn to be avoided? I suspect that someday I will try to own them all because the Saturn is simply my favorite console (with the PS1 a not-so-close second). But if these two games genuinely suck, I will put them at the end of my list.

Hummm... pretty much, yeah. I mean, Skull Fang and Gekiridan are PLAYABLE and decent for a few runs, and there are some other mediocre titles, and Time Bokan is WAY more trouble to get ahold of on the Saturn than its worth, but other than yet, yeah, the Saturn is the shit.


As for the PS1 having 'more good exclusives' than the Saturn:

Quality >>>>>>> Quantity

Was true for the Saturn, was true for the Dreamcast, etc.

[tehkao]

jp:
What is the "crown jewel" of a Saturn collection? Just curious.

[Nuke]

Is'nt it obvious? It starts with a R and ends with a N......

[CMoon]

Is'nt it obvious? It starts with a R and ends with a N......

Man, if I look at time logged in on Saturn games, this is so not true for me...

[Diabollokus]

Well I've been collecting saturn Shmups for about a year now and I've had a few dissapointments and unexpected surprises heres what I'd call buy it now!

Radiant Silvergun its really the God.
Batsugun
Hyper Duel Technosoft crowning glory imho
layer section
darius gaiden
dodonpachi
battle garegga

get them. Guaranteed no dissapointments.

Don't know about sengoku blade haven't played it.

[jp]

jp:
What is the "crown jewel" of a Saturn collection? Just curious.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :B:BN:US:1



Thats mah baby.



Edit: RS the crown jewel of the Saturn COLLECTION?! It may be a great game, but collectible wise it takes a back seat to at least 5 games.

[raiden]

While we're on the subject, how dare some developers not put Wait On/Off options in their games. Either don't fiddle with the inherant slowdown of the original, or give us the option to put it back in. Sure, I'm being anal, but I'd like to play a game that is as close to the arcade as possible.

emulating the original slowdown exactly is not such a trivial task when using a different hardware. Slowdown can occur for several reasons:

- 100% intentional: the program code makes the game slow down
- half-intentional: knowing a certain amount of objects on screen makes the original hardware slow down, the designers implement moments where this amount is reached and/or surpassed.
- unintentional: designers try to eliminate slowdown, but overlook a possible situation in playtesting which then causes slowdown. This often happens in 2player mode.

the important thing to know is that there are several factors at work which can cause a hardware to slow down. In any given frame, slowdown can occur due to:

- too many calculations required. Those can be complex mathematic equations regarding enemy and/or bullet movement, or, more often, collision detection. Depending on how it is done, collision detection can be either very quick or take rather long, with all sprites near each other participating in the equation.,
- storage space running out. Each sprite is supposed to be stored in memory, but when that space doesn´t suffice, data needs to be re-loaded which of course takes different amounts of time depending on the hardware/storage device.
- bad algorithm. For example, if you want to check 100 objects on a certain property, you can do it with different loops. One kind of loop may check 101 objects instead, another one may skip all improbable checks altogether, and one will take longer due to a different data structure. Depending on hardware accuracy, variable types will need to be different sometimes, causing even more differences in performance between different hardwares.
- graphic problems. Take different resolutions, for example. A game algorithm can be optimized for the original hardware´s resolution, yet a port will have to cope with a different resolution. This can cause discrepancies in collision detection, timing, and so on.

This is just a superficial look at the problems that can occur when converting a game to a different hardware. So if a game behaves slightly differently, even with Wait set to on, don´t be too surprised. It´s not that easy.

[captain ahar]

jp:
What is the "crown jewel" of a Saturn collection? Just curious.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :B:BN:US:1

Thats mah baby.

Edit: RS the crown jewel of the Saturn COLLECTION?! It may be a great game, but collectible wise it takes a back seat to at least 5 games.

i am happy that you are getting so much mileage off this.

also, when does it arrive? i'd like to point out again, that it is/was in the same city where i live. it's funny, considering no one i know could care less about shmups, and this is located within city limits.

P.S. are you the bidder with the Saturn SGX. that thing is awesome.

[jp]

It arrives in a couple of weeks or so. I still owe $100 (am moving, so yeah, been paying for application fees and the such), but it should be taken care of soon.

[captain ahar]

i'm sure that you would do this anyway, but care to post some pics and such when it arrives?

and where you the bidder with the SGX?

[OmegaFlareX]

and where you the bidder with the SGX?

No. He's from Alabama, and the SGX owner lives in the UK.

[Ganelon]

Edit: RS the crown jewel of the Saturn COLLECTION?! It may be a great game, but collectible wise it takes a back seat to at least 5 games.

Err, 5 games? I know of only Hein Waltz, Eyeful Home, Delisoba Deluxe, and Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru. So what's the last game (or by collectible, did you not necessarily mean more expensive)?

[jp]

PAL Jewels of the Oracle would be more expensive.


Though I was thinking more collectible i.e. Crows: The Battle Action.

[CMoon]

Maybe I'm just still trying to figure out what 'crown jewel' means...just collectable or best shmup? I mean, RSG is GREAT, but it isn't as much fun as some of the other shmups on the system.

And yeah, JP is right, if it is just an issue of collectability, it isn't top on the saturn, and hell, there are some other games on other consoles (I was thinking PCE here) that squash it as far as $$$ they can bring in.

[SheSaidDutch]

I had a look on e-bay and someone wants about £350.00 for Sapphire(PCE)

[EOJ]

I had a look on e-bay and someone wants about £350.00 for Sapphire(PCE)

Yeah but it starts at 250 and it's for a NEW/SEALED copy. Why do they say the game was "never commercially released"?? That doesn't sound right. I mean, it was released in Japan.

[jp]

Erm... the "crown jewel" thing means "most collectible item", or best find in the collection. I highly doubt any Saturn fan would try to make a case that say, Eyeful Home or Derisoba Deluxe would be bigger than the Hitachi Navi GPS HiSaturn in a Saturn collection.

[nullstar]

This agument is pointless. Yes, arcade perfect is usually better, but you often miss out on extras and other stuff. Also, getting the Saturn versions of an arcade game is most often cheaper than the arcade version (probably not with Raidant Silvergun, though that version does have some exclusive features). Some Saturn games like Batsugun and Sengoku Blade are arcade perfect or very close too. Saturn exclusives aren't worthless just becuase they were ported from the arcade. Console games take up less space than PCBs and the Saturn has more than enough quality shmups to make it worth getting.

I didn't say the games are worthless (or even bad) -- and you're absolutely right about saving space and that the Saturn as a wide library of top-notch shmups...and that we're not going to persuade each other of our preferences. But, sorry, the fact that RSG and BG got their exclusive console ports on the Saturn doesn't make it -- as some here suggest -- the ultimate shmup system. OK -- If your prime interest is mid-90s arcade ports then it probably is the ultimate shmup console. In most cases, however, there is at least one alternative platform for any decent Saturn shmup -- a fact that could very well influence someone to actually choose a different platform if they're having to decide between getting a Saturn or something else. (Personally, there are at least five other consoles I'd rather have for their shmup exclusives than the Saturn -- six if you count JAMMA.)

[OmegaFlareX]

Why do they say the game was "never commercially released"?? That doesn't sound right.

From what I understand, that's somewhat true. Sapphire was sold only at some Tokyo Game Show-type venue in 1995, directly from Hudson. I'm guessing one would've walked up to their booth there and plopped down 6800 yen for the game. Only 5000 copies were made.

[CMoon]

I had a look on e-bay and someone wants about £350.00 for Sapphire(PCE)

The crime is that Sapphire (assuming it is the shmup I think it is) is a really great game...*sigh*

[Cugel]

Thanks for all the input. This is what I've purchased to date:

* Radiant Silvergun
* Soukyugurentai
* Batsugun
* Layer Section
* Battle Garegga

I already own Donpachi, DoDonpachi, Salamander pack, Gradius pack, Thunderforce V, and others mentioned for the PS1. I'm really looking for Saturn exclusives or shmups which are better on the Saturn.