PCBs or consoles?

tkrsniper · Post by **tkrsniper** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:37 am

Hey guys, I'm new here. I'm not new to shmups though; I've been playing ever since I got Gradius by mistake for my birthday. It's truly awesome that there are shmup fans just like me. I thought it just was my little niche interest.

Anyways, I haven't bought any shmups for consoles after SNES/Genesis. I've always been an old-school shmupper, but looking at videos of games like Ibara, Dodonpachi, and Ikaruga make me really want to get into modern shmups.

I've done a bit of research, and it seems a lot of the games I am interested in do have releases on Saturn, DC, or PS2. It also seems they are avalible via the PCB versions, which require a Supergun and probably some kind of monitor and joystick.

It seems like people on these boards go both routes with their games. Consoles seem to have their advantages with cheaper hardware prices, cheaper prices on the games, and more options such as practice modes. I'm just worried that with console games, some arcade games I'll want to play are either not ported well or not ported at all. PCBs obviously are perfect and pure in their gameplay, graphics and sound, but the prices can be incredibly high on some of them and it seems a Supergun is required to play them.

I'm pretty torn between which route to take. I realize that if I start buying into either option, games like Radiant Silvergun on consoles and new PCBs will cost a ton of money, which is the biggest concern for me.

What would you guys advise?

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:45 am

You'll probably want to start out with console stuff. You may or may not want to move into PCB gaming after that, depending on your budget and interests. There's a lot of console stuff, particularly on the Saturn and Dreamcast, that's pretty darn close to "arcade-perfect" for a fraction of the "arcade price". The situation is different on the PS2, where you only have a couple really good Arcade ports.

If you're a big fan of Cave games and you don't care much about other shooters, you'll eventually need to get a supergun and buy the PCBs, as the newer games aren't getting ported (and the few that have been ported recently are pretty terrible ports).

Personally I started out a couple years ago with console stuff, bought all the Saturn, PS1, PS2, and Dreamcast shooters, then after playing them a good deal I sold off all the Saturn, PS1 and most of the Dreamcast and PS2 stuff and used the money to buy my supergun and my first batch of Cave PCBs. I'm now left (in terms of arcade shooters) with a dreamcast and a couple games, a PS2 and Espgaluda, and my supergun and 5 Cave PCBs. It's perfect for me, but everyone's different.

xghostsniperx · Post by **xghostsniperx** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:00 am

I was in the same situation as you a few months ago.

I decided to go the console route. You don't have to invest hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars like PCBs. If you decide shooters simply aren't your thing, you're not stuck trying to sell thousands of dollars worth of stuff.

Either way you decide to go, you're pretty safe, since shooters, along with RPGs, are one of the only gaming genres that generally hold their value (many expceptions, I know, but just generally).

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:06 am

I recommend MAME. Personally I haven't used it in a while, but it's a great way to start before you get your shooter budget sorted out.

edit: whoops, I forgot to say also, consoles should be good enough for most people, until you decide you are committed enough to move into PCB territory. It gets very expensive.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:11 am

twe wrote:
If you're a big fan of Cave games and you don't care much about other shooters, you'll eventually need to get a supergun and buy the PCBs, as the newer games aren't getting ported (and the few that have been ported recently are pretty terrible ports).

Just to clarify for the new guy, the 'pretty terrible ports' are limited to Ibara and Mushi, and the phrase terrible port is a relative term. The gameplay is still intact and the ports are perfectly enjoyable. The graphics aren't true low rez though, which means the definately don't look as nice as their PCB counterparts.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:15 am

angrycoder wrote:
Just to clarify for the new guy, the 'pretty terrible ports' are limited to Ibara and Mushi, and the phrase terrible port is a relative term.

Right, that's why I said "the few that have been ported recently".

DDPDOJ and Espgaluda are excellent ports.

The gameplay is still intact and the ports are perfectly enjoyable.

Actually, no, the gameplay is not intact. This is why I call them terrible. The PS2 versions of Ibara and Mushi play noticably different from the PCBs, which alters the overall gameplay and scoring. Even some enemy placements are different. Anyone who has spent time with both versions can confirm this. The average gamer probably won't care too much though.

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:21 am

It depends.

If you are into Toaplan era stuff, PCBs won't cost much. Otherwise console save a lots.

Every since Saturn era, the console version of acrade port usually got acceptable quality.

I am thinking of selling my Cave's PCBs once a while, since I could make some good use of that money.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:42 am

I can't even 1cc ESPgaluda yet (sad, I know), can't consistantly make it to chapter 4 in Dodonpachi, have only played enough of DOJ to see what it's like, and Batsugun is on its way. Even with only Cave stuff I have enough to keep me occupied for ages on consoles. I'd suggest starting out console (as even a minor investment can keep you busy for an eternity), and then if you really think you might want to get a supergun for the newer Cave stuff, or any Cave games that haven't had decent ports, then you can start saving or whatever while you're still enjoying your console shooters ^_^

And who knows? Maybe Cave won't be your thing, and you'll be more into the non-manics and consoles will just be the overall better option anyways. I suppose that's another good argument for consoles. A great deal of everything is quite nicely represented, and will give you a good idea of what you like best. Then you can work out where you want to go off that.

tkrsniper · Post by **tkrsniper** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:12 am

Thanks for the opinions everyone, more are welcome.

But I would like to address another question:

Arvandor wrote:Even with only Cave stuff I have enough to keep me occupied for ages on consoles.

The more I look around these boards, it seems people are definitely dedicated to shooters. But honestly, how do some of you spend 20, 40, sometimes over 100 hours on some shooters? I realize they are fun as hell to play, but doesn't the same game get tedious after that long? I mean, this is purely ignorance speaking here, but surely 10 hours or less would be enough to get a decent score or at least beat the game with the alotted credits or less?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just kind of shocked to see some people saying that they'll be occupied for quite awhile with four Cave games or so. Not that I'm trying to be condescending, that's AWESOME that just a few shooters will keep me occupied. I guess I'm just a bit of an ignorant shmupper

.[/b]

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:45 am

tkrsniper wrote:I mean, this is purely ignorance speaking here, but surely 10 hours or less would be enough to get a decent score or at least beat the game with the alotted credits or less?

You probably ought to know that the "standard" around here for "beating" a shmup is to do it on default settings using only one credit: even after that's been done, many players keep at a game in order to improve their high score.

Most people here won't get on your case if you turn down the difficulty or use continues just to practice or "for the heck of it," but they don't consider a game "beaten" unless it's done on one-credit defaults, and on most of the high score threads submitted scores are only accepted when achieved via the same means.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:54 am

Shooters lose a lot of replay value if you always use continues, and you'll NEVER get a decent score that way. First goal for a shooter you really love, is to get through the game on alotted or earned credits, then after that you'll want to limit yourself to 3 credits or so, next step is one credit (ie no continues), then after that it's getting more consistant, and finding ways to improve your score (which in most shooters, will often get you killed more until you get even better). I spent 80 hours on Ikaruga without a single moment of boredom for 1cc alone, and I'm awful at scoring beyond Chapter 3. I experienced more boredom playing through Ocarina of Time the first time (which I really enjoyed, by the way), than I ever did in 80 hours of the same 30 minutes (or more often less) of Ikaruga. It takes a lot of time and dedication to get truly good at shooters, which is part of the appeal. They're challenging. Someone who says otherwise needs to use less continues, or try to get a truly good score.

Some people play shooters differently, and set goals different (or not at all). Some people will try for 1cc first, someone people will try to score from the word go, and some don't set any concrete goals and just play the game. For most of us, shooters never get old, they're ALWAYS fun to play.

The general idea is to have fun and always try to better yourself ^_^ Self-competition is part of what makes shooters so gratifying. The sense of accomplishment you get from improving at a shooter is just something else. I never felt as good beating any game as I did when I got that single credit clear on Ikaruga (my first of two so far).

Find out what works for you, and always keep it fun. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong. If you don't like competing for high scores with the best of the best or whatever, tell them to stick their heads in a toilet and play it your way. Though, any of the shmupers worth talking to won't tell you otherwise. If it's fun, that's all that matters.

Post by **Icarus** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:58 am

tkrsniper wrote:The more I look around these boards, it seems people are definitely dedicated to shooters. But honestly, how do some of you spend 20, 40, sometimes over 100 hours on some shooters? I realize they are fun as hell to play, but doesn't the same game get tedious after that long? I mean, this is purely ignorance speaking here, but surely 10 hours or less would be enough to get a decent score or at least beat the game with the alotted credits or less?

Eight years and counting on Battle Garegga, on and off, a credit or few every so often. At one point, it was all I played for a whole year. Can never get bored of it, love the game to death, find it just as fresh firing it up now as I did the first time I played it.

When you come across a game you really enjoy, don't you want to keep playing it, even after you've beaten it and seen all there is to see?

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:55 am

Wait to get into pcbs until you know exactly what type of game you like, and have specific games you want to play exactly as intended. If you aren't a player that enjoys spending a lot of time on one game going after scores there's probably little point.

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:13 am

twe wrote:
angrycoder wrote:
Just to clarify for the new guy, the 'pretty terrible ports' are limited to Ibara and Mushi, and the phrase terrible port is a relative term.
Right, that's why I said "the few that have been ported recently".
DDPDOJ and Espgaluda are excellent ports.

The gameplay is still intact and the ports are perfectly enjoyable.
Actually, no, the gameplay is not intact. This is why I call them terrible. The PS2 versions of Ibara and Mushi play noticably different from the PCBs, which alters the overall gameplay and scoring. Even some enemy placements are different. Anyone who has spent time with both versions can confirm this. The average gamer probably won't care too much though.

sorry, i'm not trying to get into some hard core shmup schlong waving contest, but there are hundreds of adjectives in between 'best port ever' and terrible. Mushi and Ibara fall into neither of those categories. The games aren't broken, they are perfectly playable, the core gameplay mechanics are still intact, and both feature a bonus arrange mode. Like you said, the average gamer probably won't care too much, and its not like the majority of people on this board are exactly in competiton with the top japanese scorers.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:17 am

I would agree with everyone here. Between the two, start with consoles. Personally, I started by playing freeware stuff on the PC. Then I moved to MAME. After that I finally broke down and got a PS2.

If you want to play console stuff, I would recommend buying some of the domestic shmups first before diving into imports. Just to make sure you will appreciate your investment.

Eventually, if they suck you in enough, you're gonna have to get to buying PCBs.

Personally, I'm at the import stage. I'm getting a swapdisc for my PS2 now and some import games when some more money shows up.

cadpipe · Post by **cadpipe** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:03 pm

hi i started out the same way as many others buy buying all the pc engine,saturn,dreamcast,ps1+ps2 shooters.Im just now starting to buy pcb`s(i could never sell my games collection though)which is expensive but by far the best experience, if played on a cab that is imho.
Anyway i would suggest you start with consoles like the saturn as there is so many great games for it not just shooters, and progress from there if ur serious about it.

ps u dont have to be good at shooters to enjoy/collect them.(im shit at them). HAVE FUN!

Monk 0 Nuggets · Post by **Monk 0 Nuggets** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:04 pm

I just started getting into shmups over the last couple months. I have always been a big video game player, not just focusing on shmups although I always played Super R-Type. I just bought the stuff to play imports on my PS2 and bought the 4 Cave ports. I'm gonna go ahead and say, if you plan on playing shmups in addition to other games (because there are amazing games that aren't shmups as well), definitly go the route of consoles. Although, if you were, this question would probably be a no brainer.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:56 pm

Icarus wrote:When you come across a game you really enjoy, don't you want to keep playing it, even after you've beaten it and seen all there is to see?

No.

For me, figuring out stuff on the fly is fun. Mastering the execution of a predetermined plan isn't. That's just my preference, though.

Back on topic, the only reasons to buy PCBs are:
1.) You're playing for really serious scores
2.) You're just dying to play that particular game, but it hasn't been ported or emulated (or the emulation is bad)
3.) You're a videophile/audiophile bent on perfection

louisg · Post by **louisg** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:34 pm

twe wrote:(and the few that have been ported recently are pretty terrible ports).

Man, you must've dodged the whole 8/16-bit arcade port era. Either we're spoiled these days, or my standards are just permanently marred from playing US Gold and 2600 games during childhood

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:35 pm

I've been and playing and collecting shmups for most home systems known to man for many years, and so far I don't own a single PCB. However, I am now slowly reaching the point where I own most (or all) of the important console shmups. So while I have enough shmups to keep me entertained for years, maybe I'll evntually get an MVS (Neo Geo) or even a jamma setup.

I'm not going to buy a cabinet though (way too large for my taste) and besides of the prohibitive pricetag that some of the newer shmups carry (especially Cave), I think those boards are simply too fragile to warrant such high investments. A little too much humidity, heat or static electricity and bang, sveral hundred bucks go out the window. That's a risk I'm not willing to take (yet).

Anyway, unless you have played lots of console shmups and are looking for games that haven't been ported (properly) there really is no need for PCBs in my opinion. You should also take into consideration that there are many great home-system-only shmups.

Knuckles-chaotix · Post by **Knuckles-chaotix** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:12 pm

If you can afford say and egrett II then you will never look back at consoles again.
In comparison they are hopeless!
The bonus of this machine is that it allow's one to change their monitor into tate mode quite easily,as some shooter's are required to play Nth sth and West east.
I recently made the move over and am now selling all my consoles and games.
They feel so inferior compared to arcade goodness.
Seem's you know this anyway with your original first post.
As for a game like radiant silvergun, Well thats another story.
I just sold my copy as I found it to be the most boring over hyped shooter that ever existed!
But of course that is just my opinion.
If you come from the old school then you you should really get an arcade machine with a dreamcast perhaps and hook that up to it.
You will also find that www.excellent.com sell 450x1 pcb boards which are fantastic.
Just ask fannie to email you a few game lists.
Just ignore the website it does not get updated at all and the prices are wrong.
Best to deal direct and you can't go wrong!
Good luck.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:44 pm

Thanks for your input Shotgunfacelift. The 450-in-1 boards still aren't legal you know. Mods, please ban Knuckles-Chaotix, it's obvious to anyone that he's Shotgunfacelift.

tkrsniper · Post by **tkrsniper** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:51 pm

What are these 450-in-1 boards? They're for sure illegal?

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:01 pm

They're 450 vertical shmup roms running in MAME on a generic PC. And yes, I'm sure they're illegal.

Knuckles-chaotix · Post by **Knuckles-chaotix** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:22 pm

twe wrote:Thanks for your input Shotgunfacelift. The 450-in-1 boards still aren't legal you know. Mods, please ban Knuckles-Chaotix, it's obvious to anyone that he's Shotgunfacelift.

I don't know what your talking about?
But you seem to like the rest here towards australians.
Rude and obnoxious.
I'm not going to get involved with you pathetic firestarters.
Anyways I don't think the 450x1 are illegal at all?

They are great and definately worth getting as you will save thousands.
I have them and many people i know do and they are great!