Your opinions on the lower tier Saturn shooters

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:43 am

Arvandor wrote:Then I read somewhere that most people change some of the default settings? Like make sure it's in "Japanese mode" or something like that?

If I read you right, this only applies when playing the arcade/MAME version, since some of the different-region versions (Japan, Denmark, USA, etc.) have different stage orders, extend rates, and rank increase rates (perhaps some other stuff too). The "proper" version is considered to be the Japan version, in which the extend rate is set to every million points: the Saturn port corresponds to this one. When playing this version, everything is left on defaults as usual (though off to the side the Saturn port has the nice feature of saving your scores on different difficulty settings on separate lists, so you can play on a lower difficulty at first without clogging up the "main" high score list).

EDIT: For almost every bit of info you'd ever need on Garegga, please follow this shameless plug link. Though you've probably been there already.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:52 am

Aha, gotcha. Well, in that case, the game can lick my ass -_^ I might give it some time way later down the road, but it requires RSG levels of analasys, memorization, and dedication, without being nearly as awesome (opinions of course, don't flame me too hard). For now, I'll be sticking with games that I can just kind of play and beat and aren't puzzle-em-ups. Like ESPgaluda... I was working on a 1cc in that until I got RSG, which overthrew my soul. Time to pop ESP back in ^_^ I think RSG is actually making me worse at shooters overall, since it's so much just mental programming and figuring out how to chain each area, with very little bullet maze dodging (at least early on... I still can't make it through Chapter 2 on one credit).

jp · Post by jp » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:04 am

Arvandor wrote:Aha, gotcha. Well, in that case, the game can lick my ass -_^ I might give it some time way later down the road, but it requires RSG levels of analasys, memorization, and dedication, without being nearly as awesome (opinions of course, don't flame me too hard). For now, I'll be sticking with games that I can just kind of play and beat and aren't puzzle-em-ups. Like ESPgaluda... I was working on a 1cc in that until I got RSG, which overthrew my soul. Time to pop ESP back in ^_^ I think RSG is actually making me worse at shooters overall, since it's so much just mental programming and figuring out how to chain each area, with very little bullet maze dodging (at least early on... I still can't make it through Chapter 2 on one credit).

Oh... Xiga will give you some bullets to dodge. And if you're playing on Saturn Mode, then the eagle boss will too.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:19 am

If I could get that far -_^ But first I'd have to spend 30-50 hours memorizing chains =P 1cc ESPgaluda first, then maybe Dodonpachi (one loop at least), and THEN we'll see about getting good at RSG. Until then, just random non-serious playthroughs like most of my shooters get.

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:19 am

I don't have anything to add, but I simply wanted to say that I've been following a few of these "best of" threads, and am picking up a lot of tips. The thought crossed my mind to help others out in turn by perhaps compiling a list with various game "rankings" and comments... but it's really hard to go by what a simple page says about these things, and pretty much the only way to truly get a feel for what's involved is to follow a thread like this.

So, thanks guys. (^^) I'm particularly convinced to check out the games that The Coop mentioned. Gekirindan seemed interesting, I've heard Metal Black referenced a number of times in relation to Border Down, and anything related to inspiration for Sonic music is getting looked into. I just realized that this could mean "Sonic Wings" as opposed to "Sonic the Hedgehog," so, maybe I've got the wrong idea about Fantasy Zone. I'm still checking it out, though.

PS- jp, I had known about it before (but never seen it), but I somehow ran across your "Shmup Collection" page in a Google search, and although you've heard it before, that's a very cool resource that I can understand, partially because I've noticed your shmup preferences here on the forum.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:45 am

I recently got Guardian Force.

I dunno, can't really say I'm too pleased about my purchase. It's basically a poor man's Zero Gunner 2. As Bullet Magnet pointed out the controls are über-sensitive, so precision dodging can be kind of hard. Also the rotation feature is too fast, so usually when I want to rotate like 30° I press the button just for short time but the thing does a freakin 180°, so I carefully have to adjust back in the other direction, by which point whatever enemy I was trying to kill has already popped a bullet in my face. The controls probably work way better with a stick though, I'll have to try it out sometime.

The other thing about the game is that the presentation is just really average. The graphics are pretty detailed, but the designes are totally bland, and the game uses really bizarre and bright color schemes, so you never get a unified sense of atmosphere or "entering another world", as with great shmups like Garegga, Soukyuugurentai or Silvergun. The music is really nondescript as well.

Anyway, it's not like the game is total crap, and I'm definitely gonna check into it some more and give it another chance, but I'd only recommend you get it if you already have all the real must-haves for Saturn (and there's quite a few of those). From your list I'd say you should get Metal Black, it's got a great soundtrack, nice (albeit pre-Saturn level) gaphics and lots of interesting and quirky stuff going on. If you like the Darius games it's a required purchase anyway.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:00 pm

CIT wrote:Also the rotation feature is too fast, so usually when I want to rotate like 30° I press the button just for short time but the thing does a freakin 180°, so I carefully have to adjust back in the other direction, by which point whatever enemy I was trying to kill has already popped a bullet in my face. The controls probably work way better with a stick though, I'll have to try it out sometime.

The rotation I never had much of a problem with: I forget whether or not it's the default setup, but I have the left and right rotation buttons set to the L and R triggers, and that works well for me. Also, IIRC, tapping the button moves the cannon a set amount, about an eigth of the way around (think the 8 directions on a compass): thus, if I want to turn the thing 180 degrees, I just tap the button four times.

It's been a little while since I played it, but I recall having far more trouble dodging, as I mentioned, than making the cannon go where I wanted it to.

jiji · Post by **jiji** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:18 pm

I've got back into Guardian Force lately, and I think it's pretty neat. It does feel a little slippery, and it's very fast-paced, but it's not too difficult to get into. The incremental powerups are pretty satisfying. I like all the detail in the sprites and backgrounds. The huge-gun-based bosses tend to remind me of Gun Frontier.

Sound is definitely the weakest point, since it just uses the ST-V's FM synthesis and absolutely no samples. The music is well-composed and sounds like beefed-up Genesis music (not a bad thing in my book), but the sound effects just lack that necessary oomph. Stage 3 completely rips off Misirlou by Dick Dale (which you should remember from Pulp Fiction).

The medalling system takes some getting used to, because it's a little more strict than Garegga's and much more strict than that in Raiden Fighters. If a medal drops offscreen, you lose your count completely, regardless of whether there are still medals onscreen to grab.

I thought the yo-yo weapon was lame at first, but it's really the best weapon in the game. A lot of the time, staying alive means putting a lot of damage in precisely the right places, and the yo-yo is usually the best way to do that.

Cool bosses, good designs, etc. etc. I can see why it's not a hardcore favorite, as it's not too hard and the scoring isn't that interesting. But it's fun and worthwhile. It's been getting a bit more expensive lately, though.

jp · Post by jp » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:46 pm

icepick wrote: PS- jp, I had known about it before (but never seen it), but I somehow ran across your "Shmup Collection" page in a Google search, and although you've heard it before, that's a very cool resource that I can understand, partially because I've noticed your shmup preferences here on the forum.

Always glad to help folks out. I'm trying to post nice reviews (with pretty pictures) of some stuff now on my message board thingy to help out on that front too (as finding GOOD reviews of stuff like Blast Wind, Taromaru, Hyper Duel, Crows, etc. is impossible and frustrated me to no end when I didn't have them). I'll be linking all that up on the angelfire site when I've done more shmups though (since right now I've only done two...).

Bishamon · Post by **Bishamon** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:21 pm

As long as you stay away from Skull Fang, you should be fine.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:29 am

jp wrote:
J-Manic wrote:If I wanted to play as the 2P ship in Bast Wind, all I would have to do is place my controller in the 2P controller port. Is this correct? Or is there another way?

This is correct good sir. Though you have to get past the "Press Start" screen with 1P. They also keep a seperate High Score for the red ship!

Are you sure Jp? I tried it and it's not working. I started the game up with the 1P controller in the 1P port, then I switched ports after I got passed the "press start" screen. I couldn't control anything after doing so. Do I have to connect both controllers or something? Help me.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:54 am

Bishamon wrote:As long as you stay away from Skull Fang, you should be fine.

lmao, I'm not surprised I forgot about Skull Fang...

Horrible shooter in every aspect. Some out there actually think changing ship speeds during boss fights is innovative, I think it's annoying.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:46 pm

Darius Gaiden
Soukyugurentai
Galactic Attack
Layer Section II
Donpachi
Dodonpachi
Battle Garegga
Shienryu
Salamander Deluxe Pack
Radiant Silvergun
Purikura Daisakusen
Cotton 2
Game Tengoku
Twinkle Star Sprites
Batsugun
Detana Twin Bee Deluxe Pack
Gokujo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
Thunder Force Gold Pack
Thunder Force Gold Pack 2
Kingdom Grandprix
Sonic Wings Special
Sexy Parodius
Fantasy Zone
Metal Slug
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei

Am I missing anything that I absolutely must own? Besides Hyper Duel, of course ^_^

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:51 pm

^^ Cotton Boomerang comes to mind...

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:53 pm

Aha! I knew I was forgetting at least one. Thanks =D My tax return just came in, and I was planning to buy off all the Saturn shooters I wanted and didn't have with it. That list is after I buy them (which most I've already ordered).

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:56 pm

^^ Forgot to mention Tempest 2000 and Image Fight, X-Multiply compilation. They're great too...

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:58 pm

Oh... I hadn't even thought of Tempest 2k, I actually already own that ^_^ I'll look into Image Fight/X-Multiply.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:05 pm

^^ Thunderforce V? ...Gawd, my memory sucks!

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:16 pm

That's ok, so does mine. Should have been another no-brainer to tack on with Hyper Duel -_^ Though, I guess that's why I made the post in the first place. Yay reference material.

neojma · Post by **neojma** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:47 pm

Arvandor wrote:Darius Gaiden
Soukyugurentai
Galactic Attack
Layer Section II
Donpachi
Dodonpachi
Battle Garegga
Shienryu
Salamander Deluxe Pack
Radiant Silvergun
Purikura Daisakusen
Cotton 2
Game Tengoku
Twinkle Star Sprites
Batsugun
Detana Twin Bee Deluxe Pack
Gokujo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
Thunder Force Gold Pack
Thunder Force Gold Pack 2
Kingdom Grandprix
Sonic Wings Special
Sexy Parodius
Fantasy Zone
Metal Slug
Panzer Dragoon
Panzer Dragoon Zwei

Am I missing anything that I absolutely must own? Besides Hyper Duel, of course ^_^

I'm assuming you don't list Strikers 1945 I and II because either they are too obvious as "must have", or because you have ports on other systems.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:44 am

neojma wrote:because you have ports on other systems.

Yeah =D I have the Psikyo Shooter Collection Volumes 1 and 2. MUUUUCH cheaper option -_^

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:55 am

Dynamite Deka over Die Hard Arcade, if only for the box art.

Also, Shienryu costs around $30-$40, right? Get Gekioh Shooting King, much cheaper.

And if you're into fighters, the Real Bout Fatal Fury Collection is a must.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:07 am

shinsage wrote:Also, Shienryu costs around $30-$40, right? Get Gekioh Shooting King, much cheaper.

Geki-oh doesn't have tate mode or save high scores, though (in the US version, at least). It does have some semi-amusing extra modes, however. You could also grab Double Shienryu on PS2 for cheaper than the Saturn port: it's got tate and a low-res display mode, but no score save there either, though you also get Shienryu Explosion (which, oddly enough, does save high scores).

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:07 am

I already have Shienryu (it's on the list), and that's good enough for me, really ^_^ Good game, but not my favorite type of shooter. I whip it out when I feel like a Raiden-style game.

SkylineR32 · Post by **SkylineR32** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:07 pm

Hey Arvandor, how are you?

I'm sure I've mentioned these ones to you at Gamefaqs but anyway:

Dezaemon 2 - IMO, a must for all shmup fans. Make your own shooters! This was the game that made me finally lash out and buy a Japanese Saturn and it almost meant I could stop using PAR's.

Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius: Forever with Me - You have the others, you should also get this one. You can neber have too much Parodius.

BlastWind - OK, so it's been well and truly discussed here but IMO, it's a must have. Yes, it may be easy and it may be expensive but by fuck it's fun.

Planet Joker - hehe, just kidding. As previous posts have mentioned, it is truly bad. Too bad to describe. It really should be owned by all shmup fans as an example of just how bad some games can be. The game has no redeeming features whatsoever.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:20 pm

BulletMagnet wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:I would strongly recommend not getting your games at japangamestock, they're all hideously over-priced.
Some of their stuff is way up there, though other items are actually pretty good deals, I snagged a bunch of puzzlers from them awhile back for a fair price. You've really got to run a fine-tooth comb through their lists o' games, though...they're also a bit vague on condition, though nothing I got was too bad.

Well, they are a great store for japanese consoles. You'll never find a Famicom Model 2, PC Engine, or most other japanese consoles for as cheap as you can find them on japangamestock's stite.

Jeffrey · Post by **Jeffrey** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:32 pm

Another vote for Game Paradise. Second-best cute'em up I have played after Harmful Park (of course there are many I haven't played yet, so take it for what it is worth). An evil scientist has taken over an arcade, and the pinball machines (etc.) shoot back at you. I am finding it pretty hard, but only started a few days ago.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:42 am

Yeah, Game Tengoku (Aka The Game Paradise) is really freaking awesome. It's REALLY hard at first, but not so much after a couple plays. I can make it to chapter 4 on one credit or so, and haven't put a whole lot of time into it. I need to go try out arrange mode though ^_^ I'd have to say it ties with the Parodius games as far as cute 'em ups go in my ranking. I'm not certain anything will top Cotton 2 in my eyes.

Heya SkylineR32 (man it's weird typing out the whole thing, but there's a "Skyline" running around too I'm pretty sure) ^_^ The big turnoff for me with Dezaemon is that I have no creativity whatsoever. No matter what I do with it, I'm sure I'll churn out something that I don't really care for. I've never been big with level editors, even great and easy ones like what comes with Marathon or Starcraft, so I'm not sure this would be my thing either =/

Edit: Thinking it over, I don't even consider Game Tengoku one of the low tier Saturn shooters. Game Tengoku gets a lot of love from what I've seen, and for good reason. It's the mediocre to sub-par shooters that made me wonder. All the good to great ones get a lot of conversation, as well as the absurdly crappy ones, but there's this grey area that only gets mentioned occasionally, and usually not in detail. I wanted opinions on this grey area, and got them. Thanks all! =D

Grant Windsor · Post by **Grant Windsor** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:47 am

I have the entire run of Saturn shooters, so I'll throw them in two three categories...good, so-so and no. My personal taste on some of these, so keep that in mind. Some people hate the Saturn version of Kaitei Daisensou (In the Hunt), but I think it's just fine (and I like the game itself).

GOOD (which means you probably won't hate yourself in the morning for buying any of these)

Arcade Gears: Wonder 3
Batsugun
Battle Garegga
Cotton 2: Magical Night Dreams
Cotton Boomerang: Magical Night Dreams
Darius Gaiden
Darius II
Dezaemon 2
Dodonpachi
Donpachi
Game Tengoku: The Game Paradise!
Gokujyo Parodius-Da! Deluxe Pack
Gradius Deluxe Pack
Guardian Force
Gunbird
Hyper Duel
Jikkyou Osyaberi Parodius
Kaitei Daisensou
Layer Section
Layer Section II
Radiant Silvergun
Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus
Sengoku Blade: Sengoku Ace Episode II
Sexy Parodius
Shienryu
Shippu Mahou Daisakusen: Kingdom-Grandprix
Soukyugurentai
Strikers 1945
Strikers 1945 II
Thunder Force Gold Pack 1
Thunder Force Gold Pack 2
Thunder Force V

SO-SO (Gekirinden, Kyuukyoku Tiger II and Steam-Heart's are hugging the very bottom on this list)

Arcade Gears: Image Fight & Xmultiply
Blast Wind
Bokan To Ippatsu! Doronboo Kanpekiban
Cho Aniki: Kyuukyoku Muteki Ginga Saikyou Otoko
Detana! Twinbee-Yahoo Deluxe Pack
Gekirinden: Time Travel Shooting
Kyuukyoku Tiger II Plus
Metal Black
Sonic Wings Special
Steam-Heart's
Twinkle Star Sprites

NO (Planet Joker is truly one of the worst things ever conceived, though it's, oddly enough, more "enjoyable" (loose expression) to play than the Konami MSX ports)

Arcade Gears: Gun Frontier
Capcom Generation 1
Capcom Generation 3
Capcom Generation 4 (but do get it for MERCS)
Konami Antiques MSX Collection Ultra Pack
Planet Joker
Sega Ages: Fantasy Zone
Sega Memorial Selection Vol. 2
Skull Fang: Ku-U-Ga Gaiden
Sol Divide
Space Invaders
Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Terra Cresta 3D

- Grant

Belmont · Post by **Belmont** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:14 am

Grant Windsor wrote: SO-SO (Gekirinden, Kyuukyoku Tiger II and Steam-Heart's are hugging the very bottom on this list)

Twinkle Star Sprites

- Grant

BAAH!!! Blasphamy!!!That belongs in the GOOD section if you ask me......i cant even count the hours i have spent playing friends at this game.