Ketsui is officially cancelled for the PS2

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:23 pm

Spoke to friend who happens to program a PS2

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It's hardly VRAM he's ran out of. It's likely main RAM (32 MB). The PS2 has a HUGE bandwith to the rasterizer (GS) but it only has 4 MB of actual VRAM, but that's usually not an issue at all due to the HUGE memory bandwith from main RAM to GS local mem.

He says he's having problems getting data into ram, that could be a problem depending on the amount of data. But since this is a 2D game with relatively low resolution it shouldn't add up to so much data after all, assuming all graphics are paletted. But, still, we should be able to calculate that, everything is related to amount of data, and the speed that you are flying.

Sounds like he tried to use CRI filesystem, that is a very common streaming middleware in japan and asia. Don't know if they have any flaws but it's quite easy to stream in a few MB's / second with a few lines of C code and that's quite alot if it's 8-bit graphics no? He's definitely right in that a bad disc would render the game unplayable though.

RAM on the PCB is irrelevant to this discussion. It's how much graphics data is stored in ROM that is interesting. That's what needs to be drawn. Most 2D games use some sort of graphics characters to draw it's graphics so you can draw huge areas of graphics with limited memory. If we assume ketsui doesn't use tiled graphics it would need a huge amount of ROM to just store it's backgrounds even if they were jpeg.

Many enemies shouldn't be a problem. I think the problem he has is related to many layers of 16-32 bit graphics data.

The Ketsui developer seemed to indicate he had already ruled out all such options. The data probably need to be streamed in while playing. Mind you, streaming would only be required if we can't fit one level of graphics chips in ~24 megabyte (!), that's alot of data. This indicates the PCB have more ROM than I thought or that the data is converted to 32-bit or similar for the PS2. But the PS2 is very good at handling both 8 and 4-bit CLUT graphics data, and on the PS2 each texture can have it's own 16 or 256 colors which allows for *alot* of colors on a limited amount of memory.
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Forget about add ons via the USB or memory card the high speed memory bus is not connected to those devices.

rtw

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:22 am

Mihara did mention that "w/ the PCB, you can grab whatever you want from the ROM...". It's worth noting though, to any developer, the PCB which this game was wrapped around even has problems in the spots he's referring to. Unlike other Cave games with a very nice slowdown, this one skips frames (mid boss, two tank things after midboss, just after the tate-ana). I think if Ketsui featured IKD's near-patented slowdown, they'd have a lot more to work with on the port. But, it's not in the PCB, so he's defintiely not going to opt for it in the port.

I, for one, am delighted that there are still sticklers for quality in the industry.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:11 am

I wonder if they replicated the "matrix effect" that sometimes happens when tons of chips explode on screen. I always thought that was pretty cool-looking.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:33 am

That is just the game freaking out. ESPGaluda does it too.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:50 am

Valgar wrote:That is just the game freaking out. ESPGaluda does it too.

Where?

MrMonkeyMan · Post by **MrMonkeyMan** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:55 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
Valgar wrote:That is just the game freaking out. ESPGaluda does it too.
Where?

It only freaks out in the PCB version. I think I've seen it happen when the player takes out one of those cannon towers on the first stage.

If you have the DVD that comes with the PS2 release check it out.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:38 am

MrMonkeyMan wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:
Valgar wrote:That is just the game freaking out. ESPGaluda does it too.
Where?
It only freaks out in the PCB version. I think I've seen it happen when the player takes out one of those cannon towers on the first stage.

If you have the DVD that comes with the PS2 release check it out.

Yeah, the graphic noise effect (heavily resembles old television snow) when the game seems to overload the draw-limit for sprites on a specific line.

When I watched the ESPGaluda DVD for the first time, I thought that was a compression error that was occuring from the capture software (artifacting) they had used.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:41 am

NTSC-J wrote:I wonder if they replicated the "matrix effect" that sometimes happens when tons of chips explode on screen. I always thought that was pretty cool-looking.

Considering that Arika cleared this up in their PS2 port of ESPGaluda, I'd assume that they probably got rid of it in Ketsui (not to mention that the Ketsui PCB suffers far less from this glitch than the ESPGaluda PCB does).

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:17 am

I wonder what he means when mentioning the difficulty in porting to other consoles. For ps3 I guess it's the pressure for 3d over 2d, for x360 the userbase (maybe?), and wii? I'm not sure about wii.

Maybe the big N has some specific regulations for each game released? If rules against too many on screen flashes, and only 'revolutionary' control setups is enough to totally screw up the metal slug anthology, then I'd be really afraid to see what would happen to ketsui if it were ported to Wii.

I vote for a port to Linux!

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:39 pm

Isn't it ironic that an old 68000 running at 20Mhz and a custom GPU cannot be ported to the powerful PS2 ?

rtw

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:06 pm

with regards to 2d processing, i didn't think the ps2 was supposed to be that powerful? i'm not sure how accurate this is, but i remember reading somewhere that even the saturn was better at processing 2d than a ps2, with something like 4mb dedicated to 2d (whereas ps2 has 2mb, and ps1 with 1.5mb). and then the dreamcast something like a whopping 7mb dedicated ram for 2d. i'm not a tech-head by any means, but i find it interesting that fast processors and graphics cards don't necessarily mean a good machine for 2d. i also remember hearing something about PCs wont be good for 2d in some years because of "base memory", whatever the hell that means. and wasn't ikaruga originally destined for ps2, but the machine couldn't cut it...?

anywho. as far as ketsui goes, i think if you want it, buy the board. after this news, it doesn't look like the price is going down anytime soon.

(the saturn coulda ran this game

)

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:28 pm

jpj wrote:ikaruga originally destined for ps2, but the machine couldn't cut it...?

Ikaruga is 3D rendered. It's not a 2D game at all, aside from gameplay of course ^_^ But yeah, 3D graphics. I'd laugh if the PS2 really couldn't handle it.

Almost makes ya wonder if the Dreamcast really could do Ketsui o_O Too bad the chances of Arika trying to port it to the Dreamcast are infinitesimal to none.

CAVE man · Post by **CAVE man** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

jpj wrote:with regards to 2d processing, i didn't think the ps2 was supposed to be that powerful? i'm not sure how accurate this is, but i remember reading somewhere that even the saturn was better at processing 2d than a ps2, with something like 4mb dedicated to 2d (whereas ps2 has 2mb, and ps1 with 1.5mb). and then the dreamcast something like a whopping 7mb dedicated ram for 2d. i'm not a tech-head by any means, but i find it interesting that fast processors and graphics cards don't necessarily mean a good machine for 2d. i also remember hearing something about PCs wont be good for 2d in some years because of "base memory", whatever the hell that means. and wasn't ikaruga originally destined for ps2, but the machine couldn't cut it...?

anywho. as far as ketsui goes, i think if you want it, buy the board. after this news, it doesn't look like the price is going down anytime soon.

(the saturn coulda ran this game )

All of that is rubbish. Don't believe everythiing you read on the internet, Sega fanboys are everywhere...

Do you really think the Saturn could handle Ibara, Espgaluda or Guilty gear XX slash? not a chance.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:40 pm

i was pretty sure that ikaruga thing was true??? anywho, my 2001 ps2 doesn't run mark of the wolves as well as my 1991 neo-geo.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:47 pm

Well that's because the game was specifically designed to run on that hardware. It's why the port of Guilty Gear X to Dreamcast is so much better than the one to the Playstation. GGX was done on the Naomi board... The Dreamcast basically IS a naomi board, that reads GD and CD ROMS ;P

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:52 pm

guilty gear x is on the ps2 (?), and identical to the dc version... but by your logic, you would say that if the guilty gears were ever released as a pack on ps3 sometime in the future, you would expect them to be worse?

dial911 · Post by **dial911** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:37 pm

CAVE man wrote:
jpj wrote:with regards to 2d processing, i didn't think the ps2 was supposed to be that powerful? i'm not sure how accurate this is, but i remember reading somewhere that even the saturn was better at processing 2d than a ps2, with something like 4mb dedicated to 2d (whereas ps2 has 2mb, and ps1 with 1.5mb). and then the dreamcast something like a whopping 7mb dedicated ram for 2d. i'm not a tech-head by any means, but i find it interesting that fast processors and graphics cards don't necessarily mean a good machine for 2d. i also remember hearing something about PCs wont be good for 2d in some years because of "base memory", whatever the hell that means. and wasn't ikaruga originally destined for ps2, but the machine couldn't cut it...?

anywho. as far as ketsui goes, i think if you want it, buy the board. after this news, it doesn't look like the price is going down anytime soon.

(the saturn coulda ran this game )
All of that is rubbish. Don't believe everythiing you read on the internet, Sega fanboys are everywhere...

Do you really think the Saturn could handle Ibara, Espgaluda or Guilty gear XX slash? not a chance.

Does the

give you a hint of sarcasm in that last comment?

Oh and for your question...with a big enough ram cart? Yes.

Valgar · Post by **Valgar** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:54 pm

jpj wrote:i was pretty sure that ikaruga thing was true??? anywho, my 2001 ps2 doesn't run mark of the wolves as well as my 1991 neo-geo.

Just because MOTW runs better on your Neo-Geo does not mean that the Neo-Geo is better than a PS2. The game was built from the ground up using the Neo-Geo hardware. The only thing that will decide on the quality of the PS2 port is how much effort goes into re-writing it to fit the new system.

Sammy obviously has more resources than Treasure (and they also decided that the extra sales for PS2 justified the expenses needed to port it there), and once they finished GGXX on PS2 (which runs BETTER than the arcade), that sets them up for easier ports of all its successors.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:55 pm

MrMonkeyMan wrote:It only freaks out in the PCB version. I think I've seen it happen when the player takes out one of those cannon towers on the first stage.

These are two different issues. I'm not talking about the "static" graphicaly glitch. I'm talking about dropping frames. It gets noticeably jerky in two spots of Ketsui (noted above). I don't recall this in ESPGaluda, and I've plyaed through the PCB & PS2 version quite a few times.

@2D and ports in general:
Whatever hardware the game was originally intended for is almost always going to yield a better port. Look at Akumajo Dracula on the PS versus SS... Playstation version is way better, despite the fact that the Saturn is superior* for 2D. (It's not really...depends on the code).

MrMonkeyMan · Post by **MrMonkeyMan** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:36 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
MrMonkeyMan wrote:It only freaks out in the PCB version. I think I've seen it happen when the player takes out one of those cannon towers on the first stage.
These are two different issues. I'm not talking about the "static" graphicaly glitch. I'm talking about dropping frames. It gets noticeably jerky in two spots of Ketsui (noted above). I don't recall this in ESPGaluda, and I've plyaed through the PCB & PS2 version quite a few times.

Well, that's what NTSC-J, Valgar and I were talking about.

eretsua · Post by **eretsua** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:53 am

jpj wrote:i was pretty sure that ikaruga thing was true???

last year treasure gave an interview in which they talked about why no ps2-port ever happened for ikaruga. there is a significant difference in hardware architecture between the NAOMIboard/DC/NGC compared the ps2. porting would have been possible but it would pretty much required a rewrite of the original code so they didn't bother. i tried a quick google search but couldn't instantly dig-up the interview.

~eretsua.

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:12 am

eretsua wrote:
jpj wrote:i was pretty sure that ikaruga thing was true???

last year treasure gave an interview in which they talked about why no ps2-port ever happened for ikaruga. there is a significant difference in hardware architecture between the NAOMIboard/DC/NGC compared the ps2. porting would have been possible but it would pretty much required a rewrite of the original code so they didn't bother. i tried a quick google search but couldn't instantly dig-up the interview.

~eretsua.

And G-Rev did the graphics engine for Ikaruga so that would mean that they Treasure would have to pay G-Rev double for the PS2 port.

rtw

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:43 am

I was searching back trying to find some info for a friend, about the history of Ketsui "port", or rather lack thereof...

Please don't post in the following thread, it's ancient... just an entertaining read.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=356

Hey, Mushi and Ibara got ports!

And everyone thought the competition thing was the biggest reason eh?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:27 am

MrMonkeyMan wrote:Well, that's what NTSC-J, Valgar and I were talking about.

I thought Valgar was referring to my post. Remind me to show him the quote button.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:34 am

i wasn't saying the neo is a better machine than a ps2, or a saturn better than a ps2. i agree with what you are saying - i am surprised so many people are incredulous that the ps2 can't handle ketsui.

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:53 am

Last night I tried to find out how much data the Ketsui PCB is equipped to store.

8Mb x 4
4Mb x 1
2Mb x 1 (Sound)
2Mb x 1 (Program)

A total of: 40Mb I am guessing that this is uncompressed data so that random access will work. In addition the PGM has two dedicated GPU's.

rtw

ReKleSS · Post by **ReKleSS** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:12 am

And yet Mihara says a download version would be 450MB. At least, I assume he's referring to Ketsui...

He also made a comment about a Saturn port. No idea what he's trying to say, though.

(Out of curiousity, any idea how much space DOJ uses?)

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:53 pm

ReKleSS wrote: (Out of curiousity, any idea how much space DOJ uses?)

Same PCB as Ketsui, at least populated with the same chips.

rtw