Will shmups die by 2007?

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:50 am

Yeah, I think that's it.

Rando & Rob for co-presidents of the universe plz. And maybe Nemo for a bit of fun.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:28 am

Re-releases don't count as new releases. The genre is dead.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:52 am

Yea I guess you're right. Guess we better send an email to Cave to let them know the bad news. Milestone, Moss, G.Rev, Namco and Treasure as well. Mods, please delete this forum, thanks.

Arznei · Post by **Arznei** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:30 pm

Personally, I could care less if shooters suddenly stopped being made entirely. There are so many I've not put enough time into that I don't want anymore.

"couldn't care less"

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 am

I personally won't let them die. people keep saying that you can't do anything new with these games, but I honestly see that being highly ironic, considering just how little has been touched on. you could really make something that goes far beyond the "formation/line moving along a fixed path and repeat them along the level" shtick. even the rank system isn't being used to it's full potential, because even that has more capability to create something even more interesting, by allowing enemies to use more functions and movements when the rank goes up.
what am I getting at? AI. many games honestly forgoe using it at full capability, and just using movement splines with firing intervals. I say that an intelligent shmup needs to be made. sure, this wouldn't work well for bosses, but in the mobbing formations of the enemies we see all the time you could give them the ability to react and interact with each other and the environment. think of it in the sense of how FPS games have been pushing AI to do such things. I feel that shmups can utilize this to become even better (and harder) than they already are. sure, at a low rank the enemies are pretty stupid, but if the rank goes up the enemies start thinking on their feet more and more, and taking up debris for shielding, knocking objects toward you, activating traps, or even hiding from your fire until more of it's buddies come along.
also, giving the environment itself more role in the play than to destroy for score would be very welcome. such as knocking a pillar down onto a line of enemies, or allowing the player ship to use pieces of the environment as a projectile. these little things would be something to add more power and variety to the games, and quite possibly breathe new life into them.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:05 am

Yes, shmups are going to die. It has been foretold of long ago.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:50 pm

everything dies eventually.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:10 pm

jpj wrote:everything dies eventually.

Except mahjong. Ever wonder what cockroaches will be playing when we're dead. You now have your answer.

rib · Post by **rib** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:08 am

i think shmups are one of the core game types and therefore will stay as long as video game will exist.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:18 am

I don't think shmups will die by 07 I think the freeware shmup comunity will keep it alive well till 2014. A few mainstream releases will pop up here and their probaly during that time as well.

Although what Rib said might happen.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:45 am

Damocles wrote:Except mahjong. Ever wonder what cockroaches will be playing when we're dead. You now have your answer.

Cockroaches stopped evolving millions of years ago. However, when the rest of us die, suddenly they will evolve mahjong-playing appendages, just you wait. They'll also start smoking Lucky Strikes.

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:38 am

Will you die by 2007?

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:53 am

Whoa, is it 2007 already?

tuoma · Post by **tuoma** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:11 am

Yeah look at that, and Treasure is bringin a new game to the 360, Live Arcade keep on delivering new shmups at a steady paste (some new, some old) and Wiis virtual console are also re-releasing a great deal of games.

This discussion has been going on for like 10 years, and no they won't die. I can even see how more people will start playing these games now that all three new consoles have shmups available in some form already, and most for a next-to-nothing cost that might bring people to buy more "serious" once to.

Sundance · Post by **Sundance** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:36 pm

Trigger Heart Excelica and Karous will be the last shmups for the DC but that aside shmups will be around for a long time. I do believe that they will evolve beyond what we think of as shumps though.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:26 pm

No but it'll get real boring for those who don't PCBs and primarily like Cave games.

Aquas · Post by **Aquas** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:52 am

IF Shmups do indeed die, there will always be the old to play. Numbers of titles that gamers can go to for shmup variety. As for shmups current state (though this is a limited point of view, because of the whole frame of time that video games have existed) I think fans and future fans should be ...moderatly set for a good amount of their life.

I mean, doesn't dedication to a shmup consume more hours than a typical RPG does, or even to some more hours than some MMORPG fixation.

Granted, I'm not sure how much the genre can actually change to fit a higher future appeal...

That's my sentiment for ya'll. =)

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:57 am

"Will Shmups die by 2007?"

>Ever considered the fact that if the Japanese didn't exist, the genre would have died 20 years ago. Apart from a few titles with bad playability on the Amiga, western programmers have rarely ever bothered to produce 2D shoot'em ups. Last Hope is a very rare exception to the rule.

I always remember the words at the end of the completion credits of an old Konami shooter (I think it was Twinbee):-
"We Love Shooting Games!"

^The Japanese do, and its only because of this...that they exist.

We are very niche indeed in the West. I remain surprised at the general unpopularity of 2D shooters though. They went from being the most popular genre in the late 80s (according to UK magazines at the time), to almost complete obscurity. The industry reasons for this are clear; * SFII in 1992 and the rise of the Fighting genre/ca$h gained from short challenges in the arcade. * The rise of 3D and interactive realism.
However, the industry reasons for the demise of shoot'em ups do not concern me. I'm more intrigued by the individual players and their fickleness. ie. Their propensity for treating the genre as a 'fad'. Dipping in then running away. This happens in every activity though, skateboarding and BMX have waxed and waned at least 3 or 4 times now (in the same time period as shoot'em ups). So I guess this 'fashion led behaviour' is normal. Shoot'em ups are an endangered species facing extinction though...

What I can't understand though is how someone can enjoy a good blast one minute, then not feel the need for another blast/adrenaline rush the next...?
Do so many people do things merely for the reason that its currently fashionable to do so?

stratos · Post by **stratos** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:15 pm

Hum... another interesting question woul'd be: will the price of the shoot'em up games go up or down after the genere extinction?

The price coul'd go up becoause, since the shoot'em ups are dead, it will be difficult to find them and so the offer coul'dn't satisfie the demand... but the prices coul'd also decrease because it woul'd mean that player are not more interested in the genere...

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:52 pm

DEL wrote: Do so many people do things merely for the reason that its currently fashionable to do so?

Yes DEL, yes they do.

Social:
'Heard a few bar stories last night of why one of my close friends decided to leave Seattle to come back to Michigan. Two girls he was really close to and in a band with, one of them got jealous of three outside friends with boyfriends lasting over a year *gasp* and decided to date more. She finally strikes a boyfriend and suddenly becomes totally disinterested in the band and her longtime close friends. A few short months later, she opts out of the apartment they were all living in and never talked to any of her longtime friends after that. Now, this other girl also in the band same friendship ties and all that, cusses this girl out and vows never to abandon anybody like that over "a boy."

One month later that girl did the exact same thing the other one did. 'Found a subletter for the apt. and disappeared as well.

Music:
That one's easy
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JwIiYvLVyZU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=68Iy6fN4vzI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cczQ5sc2Ays
http://youtube.com/watch?v=80rKJMfqEbM

Games:
The Wii could lose heavy market share pretty easily if a random company was smart enough to make the exact same specs & functionality then make sure the product appears with every celebrity, MTV channel, 1-2 emo bands, 1-3 sets of rap lyrics, suburban morning show, and has 1-2 positive stories pumped by the mainstream media....perfect Madden, GTA, and WWII ripoffs wouldn't hurt. Hmm, probably any of the three consoles could lose that way. Why do you think fucktoads like Paris Hilton are given all these consoles for free? Apparently you need that kinda celebrity role model crap for the average yuppie to make sure "it's ok" to own these kinda things.

You ever see just regular people play these mainstream games? Yeah, they're totally not in it for skill-based gameplay. 'Play an exhibition game, kill cops & hookers, and kill 70 nazis and they've had their fix. I have friends who've never beat a game before because they just feel like stopping after 70somethin'% in.

I've never seen any of my idiot next-gen-owning yearly Madden purchasers realize they lost features when buying the new versions. "OMG better graphics!!" and that was the benefit of $60. They had no complaints. I put it out there to a group that they lost some of the modes last year...I got the boos and hisses. I was then given a Miller Light because "I was no longer cool enough to have their Budweiser"

I think the number of people who give a shit about what shoulda mattered in games to make them good stay about the same for whatever the player statistics were in the 80s. I think all the financial growth in the games industry that came after were for different reasons than for core aspects of "skill & challenge."

A developer would have to follow a bunch of that mainstream appeal thread, then make sure the product appears with every celebrity, MTV channel, 1-2 emo bands, 1-3 sets of rap lyrics, suburban morning show, and has 1-2 positive stories pumped by the mainstream media. Shoot-em-ups would get some popularity again. But you'd know everyone on this forum would find a reason to hate on that kind of phenomenon if it ever went down.

Also, all the old-school video game apparal at Hot Topic or wherever is only cool to reference; not actually rigorously play. Since shooting games are from that era, they too have re-popularizing this genre that much harder.

Shoot-em-ups are in a coma. The everlasting kind.

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:43 pm

Well of course, people only want elaborate interactive movies not anything that requires skill.

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:08 am

Pixel_Outlaw wrote:Well of course, people only want elaborate interactive movies not anything that requires skill.

haha, they don't even want interactive movies. They want the """realism""" equivalent to hooker-beating, stat-peddling, cop-butchering, random-explosion'd, nazi-killing, Wario-ware minigames...but untimed, the difficulty set to "cognitively impaired", and there's always AL-WAYS a barrel of a gun on the bottom center of the screen pointing toward the center aimed off to the distance.

C'mon! How did 50 Cent: Bulletproof go Greatest Hits?!?!

I'm the only guy I know outside the intartubes that likes the Metal Gears. Everybody else I've watched play them skips the story every time...then complains there's a story. I don't think I've ever met a Splinter Cell player who knows what the game's story is about. They just say "you kill terrorists." Accurate, yes, but you know what I mean.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:01 am

If there's one thing we all know, it's that Gradius and Raiden are really the only 2 shmups America knows aside from Treasure's games.
Gradius holds well because Konami was pretty much given fame because of Gradius' success. moreover, they make absolutely certain that it or it's referencable material makes an appearance in nearly all their games. It's collectively forced down the throats of everyone who plays anything Konami. to be perfectly honest, it's a DAMN good strategy, and it actually keeps the series thriving.
Raiden is... well, Raiden. I've seen more Raiden cabs than any other shmup there is. (pick your game, I've seen all except 3 or 4.) It's a decent series, even if it's faded into mediocrity as of late. but still, it's yet another series that remains memorable because it's actually quite good to the US players.

Treasure's only capable of developing their games because of 2 things:
1: they ensure that their work is up with times as far as graphical capability is concerned. their games always are VERY pretty, irregardless of whether they play well or not. The quality is definitely there.
2: the strange phenomenon of the downright huge and rabid fanbase they have in the USA. this is really heavily attributed to the (very mediocre) Gunstar Heroes. people really do fawn over everything they make because of that, and because of that one game people await every release they make.

Gee, a dead genre that still has big hitters around isn't really dead until said big hitters finally disappear, is it not?

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:08 am

Taito? We grow them here in the midwest yes. Ya getcha a chunk of spud and then plant that in the ground.

Shmup? Yes you see a gopher and shmup.

Tate? Yeah but you have to be over 17 to see em.

Bullet hell - When you have that turky in yer sights and yalls ammo runs out.

Ikaruga -What my horn says on that old ford what got inta a reck.

....I getting tired sorry.

PepsimanVsJoe · Post by **PepsimanVsJoe** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:49 pm

Gungriffon Geona wrote: 2: the strange phenomenon of the downright huge and rabid fanbase they have in the USA. this is really heavily attributed to the (very mediocre) Gunstar Heroes. people really do fawn over everything they make because of that, and because of that one game people await every release they make.

Um...No...and that is all I'll say about that.

Niche genres never die, they just remain niche until the end of time.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:01 pm

PepsimanVsJoe wrote:
Gungriffon Geona wrote: 2: the strange phenomenon of the downright huge and rabid fanbase they have in the USA. this is really heavily attributed to the (very mediocre) Gunstar Heroes. people really do fawn over everything they make because of that, and because of that one game people await every release they make.
Um...No...and that is all I'll say about that.

Niche genres never die, they just remain niche until the end of time.

Gunstar didn't really try anything that new aside from it's interesting powerup system. otherwise games like Contra and Metal Slug highly exceed the game. sure, it's colorful and wacky, but it's really not enough to save it in my opinion.

grahf · Post by **grahf** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:14 pm

Gunstar heroes did introduce a lot of non-shooter players to the genre. I think a lot of people picked it up because it looks like a platformer at a glance. It was a lot of peoples first taste.

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:36 am

Shmups DIED when i saw this thread

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=12328

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:00 am

Gungriffon Geona wrote:Gunstar didn't really try anything that new aside from it's interesting powerup system. otherwise games like Contra and Metal Slug highly exceed the game. sure, it's colorful and wacky, but it's really not enough to save it in my opinion.

It's colorful, wacky, super fun, has a neat mixture of weapons, and the throwing... Man the THROWING! =D Also has that weird driving level, and the shooter level, just interesting level design overall as well. I wouldn't say it didn't do anything new "aside from it's interesting powerup system," and I wouldn't call it mediocre either; it's really quite a good game, and I can understand the fanbase for Treasure starting with this game. Titles like Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga and Bangai-O don't exactly do anything to hurt their reputation either (Silpheed is pretty blah though). Also keep in mind, that I didn't get to play Gunstar Heroes until the VC version came out, so nostalgia isn't clogging my tastes on this one. GH just has a certain charm to it.

I dunno about Contra vs GH, that's a close one for me, but I will agree that Metal Slug kicks them both to the curb and spits on them -_^

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:05 am

Arvandor wrote:I dunno about Contra vs GH, that's a close one for me, but I will agree that Metal Slug kicks them both to the curb and spits on them -_^

Four-way firing...teh funz? I guess not. Metal Slug is a logical outgrowth of Irem's games Ninja Spirit/Saigo no Nindou and Gunforce 2/Geostorm, but I think the collecting shit gets old. It's a taste, what can I say. I would have preferred for an entirely different weapon system, myself.