Discussion about the 3rd Annual Top 25 Shmups *Voting*

[Shatterhand]

Yes, I understand what you mean about Dodonpachi. I am one who also likes it too

If I am not mistaken , DDP was in my previous 2 lists .

Yes, I also noticed some votes for oldschool shmups, which is really cool. Maybe next year we may see Space Manbow or maybe Apidya showing up in the top 25 ?

[Zhon]

If you choose not to vote, then it's your perogative, but the list is opinion, rather than fact, so it's by nature imperfect. Plus, by not voting, you actually strengthen the rest of the votes, rather than discredit the poll.

[nullstar]

Quick question: are doujin shmups applicable, or is this vote for "official" releases only?

I forgot that I never responded to this: I see no problem with doujin shmups -- not going through a traditional publisher doesn't affect the quality of the game -- though it may well affect its visibility.

[nullstar]

Alas, I'd also forgotten that I never posted the results of the spring 2003 poll -- it's not technically a poll through 2002, but it's reasonably close...and is the first one. Note that I used a different method to calculate the honorable mention games that time around (though I don't at the moment recall what it was.)


Top 25 Shmups of all time "Through 2002"

01) Do Don Pachi
02) Thunderforce III
03) Ikaruga
04) ESP ra.de.
05) Strikers 1945 II
06) M.U.S.H.A. / Musha Aleste
07) Don Pachi
08) Soldier Blade
09) Battle Garegga
10) Radiant Silvergun
11) Gradius III (SNES)
12) R-Type
13) Guwange
14) Axelay
15) Gate of Thunder
16) Thunderforce IV
17) Blazing Lazers / Gunhed
18) Thunderforce V
19) Mars Matrix
20) Soukyugurentai
21) Gunbird:
22) Sengoku Blade
23) Lords of Thunder
24) Gradius Gaiden
25) Gunbird 2


----------------------------------------
Honorable Mention (alphabetical):
----------------------------------------
Batsugun
Blazing Star
Einhander
Gradius
Parodius-Da!
R-Type Delta
Space Megaforce / Super Aleste
Zanac Neo

[Zhon]

Bringing up this thread with the polls about to close.

It'll be quite interesting to see the results this time, because ever since the forum relaunch, the member makeup here has changed dramatically. A lot of new members, and some lost (I'll risk looking like a fool here by saying out loud I miss Mode7, among others).

[Rob]

Mode 7 never participated in list threads.

[tehkao]

I made sure not to include DDP in my list this year, it's kinda boring to have the same winner 3 years in a row.

[SheSaidDutch]

Quite afew on both those lists I've played and didn't find all that special.

[Zhon]

Mode 7 never participated in list threads.

Yes - that was part of my post that wasn't entirely on-topic...didn't make that clear though.

Quite afew on both those lists I've played and didn't find all that special.

It's a matter of opinion - I mean, I don't particularly like ANY psikyo game...but a significant amount of other shmuppers do. It's not meant to reflect our personal favourite lists (if it was, why bother having a vote...everyone knows what they themselves like already), but the aggregate favourites...heh.

[Rob]

I've enjoyed every shooter on those lists but R-Type. I think they are good well rounded lists, R-Type included. I've never seen a better top list. Hopefully you new guys won't blow it this year. I noticed quite a few total posts: 1 in that topic.

[nullstar]

OK, I need a bit of help before finalizing things:

I don't know/couldn't find out enough about these games to determine whether or not they're shmups or not. Note: I'm not going to penalize anyone (i.e. by removing these games from their votes) if the games are not shmups. However, if they're not, you could put that part of your vote toward something else... (Same goes for the couple people who voted for Tempest/Gyruss/etc...I just haven't had a chance to contact you individually.)

• Astrorock 2000 (OS X?)
• Baryon (PC)
• Beamrider
• Exerion (looks like 3D gameplay to me)
• Guardian Force (Saturn?)
• Sanxion (is the radar just a gimmick or is it 3D gameplay?)
• Space War (more like 2D Wing Commander)
• Strahl (?)
• tokyo (arcade) (???)

Or if you've got lots of time: the following are the list of games that have received at least one vote. It would be useful to have other eyes review for:
(A) whether or not games listed are shmups
-and-
(B) whether games I'm listing under multiple names are really the same.

(Super) Laydock 2 (MSX)
1941: Counter Attack
1942
1943
1944: The Loop Master
19XX: The War Against Destiny
Abadox
Aero Fighters 2
Aero Fighters 3
Aeroblasters / Air Buster
Agony
Air Ra De (Christmas)
Air Zonk
airwolf also called skywolf (arcade)
Aldynes (PCE)
Aleste / Power Strike
Aleste 2
Alpha Mission 2
Andro Dunos
Android Assault
Apidya
Armed Police Batrider
Astro Flash (a.k.a Transformer)
Astrorock 2000
Atomic Robo Kid (Amiga actually...)
Axelay
Banshee
Baryon (PC)
Batsugun
Batsugun Special Version
Battle Bakraid
Battle Formula (NES)
Battle Garegga
Battle Squadron
Beamrider
Bike Banditz
Bio Hazard Battle
BioMetal
Blazing Star
Border Down
Carrier Airwing (Arcades)
Chaos Field (DC/GC)
Cho Ren Sha 68k
Cloudphobia
Coryoon
Cotton
Cotton 2
Cotton Boomerang
Crisis Force
Cybattler
Cyberd
Cyvern
daioh
Dangun Feveron
Darius
Darius 2
Darius Force
Darius Gaiden
Defender
Delta (C64)
Detana Twinbee
Dimahoo
Disposable Hero
DoDonPachi
DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou
Donpachi
Dragon Blaze
Dragon Breed
Dragon Spirit
Einhander
Elemental Master
Eliminate Down (MD)
Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
ESPGaluda
ESPrade
exerion
Fantasy Zone
Final Soldier
Fire Shark
Flying Shark
Forgotten Worlds
Fren-zE
G Darius
Gaiares
Galaga
Galaga '88
Galaga Arrangement
Galaxian
Game Tengoku
Gate of Thunder
geometry wars
GG Aleste
GG Aleste 2
Giga Wing
Giga Wing 2
Gigandes
Gley Lancer
Gokujyo Parodius
Gradius / Nemesis
Gradius Gaiden
Gradius Galaxies
Gradius II Gofer no Yabo
Gradius II (MSX) / Nemesis (MSX) / Nemesis '90 Kai
Gradius III (SNES)
Gradius IV
Gradius V
Guardian Force
Gunbird
Gunbird 2
Gunhed / Blazing Lazers
Gunnac
Gunsmoke
Guwange
Gynoug / Wings of Wor
Gyruss
Harmful Park
heavy unit
Hellfire
Hellsinker
Hybris (Amiga)
Hype
Hyper Duel
Ikaruga
Image Fight
Image Fight II
Imperishable Night
In The Hunt
Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
Judgement Silversword
Katakis
Ketsui
Last Resort
Layer Section / Rayforce / Gunlock / Galactic Attack
Life Force / Salamander (NES)
Lords of Thunder / Winds of Thunder
Macross 2036
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie
Magical Chase
Mahou Daisakusen
Mars Matrix
Metal Black
Moreo Twinbee
Mr. Heli no Daibouken
Musha Aleste / M.U.S.H.A.
Mushihimesama
Nexzr
NOIZ2SA
Outzone
Override
Parodius
Parodius Da!
Parsec 47
Perfect Cherry Blossom
Phoenix
Pop'n Twinbee
Power Strike II
Progear no Arashi
Project X Special Edition
Psyvariar 2
Psyvariar Revision
Psyvariar: Medium Unit
Pulstar
R-Type
R-Type Delta
R-Type Final
R-Type II
R-Type III
R-Type Leo
Radiant Silvergun
radio zonde
Raiden
Raiden DX
Raiden Fighters
Raiden Fighters 2
Raiden Fighters Jet
Raiden II
Rally Raid
Raptor: Call of the Shadows
Ray Crisis
RayStorm
Rayxanber III
Recca
Robo Aleste
rRootage
Salamander
Salamander 2
Samidare
Sanxion
Score Soldier -Winter Festival 2004
Scramble
Sengoku Ace / Samurai Aces
Sengoku Blade / Tengai
Sentimental Shooting (hentai)
Sexy Parodius
Shienryu / Gekioh: Shooting King
Shikigami no Shiro
Shikigami no Shiro 2
Shippu Mahou Daisakusen / Kingdom Grand Prix
Side Arms
Silk Worm
Sky Shark
Sol Feace
Solar Striker
Soldier Blade
Sonic Wings Special
Soukyugurentai/Terra Diver (PSX)
Space Bomber
Space Invaders
Space Manbow
Space War
Spriggan
Spriggan Mark 2
Star Force
Star Parodia
Star Soldier (Gamecube)
Strahl
Strikers 1945
Strikers 1945 II
Strikers 1945 III / Strikers 1999
Strikers 1945 Plus
Super Aleste / Space Megaforce
Super Laydock (MSX)
Super Spacefortress Macross/Chou-Jikuu Yousai Macross (Arcades)
Super Star Soldier
Swiv
Tempest 3000
Thunder Cross
Thunder Force AC
Thunder Force II
Thunder Force III
Thunderforce IV / Lightening Force
Thunder Force V
tokyo (arcade)
Truxton
Truxton 2
Tumiki Fighters
Twin Cobra
Twin Cobra II (Arcades)
Twin Hawk
Twinbee
Twinbee Yahho
Twinkle Star Sprites
Tyrian
U.N. Squadron (SNES) / Area 88 (SFC)
UN Squadron (arcade) / Area 88 (arcade)
Uridium
Uridium 2
Vasara
Vasara 2
Viewpoint
Viper Phase 1
W-Ring
Warning Forever
X2 No Relief
Xenon 2 Megablast
Xevious
Xexex
Z-Out
Zanac (NES) / Zanac EX (MSX)
Zanac Neo
Zaxxon Yeah, this one's getting tossed for 3D gameplay, but I haven't had a chance to ask the person what they want to replace it with, if anything...
Zero Gunner 2

[Zach Keene]

As I posted before the forums went wacky, Baryon is a PC shareware shmup I remember being very Raiden-like.

[Zhon]

I've enjoyed every shooter on those lists but R-Type. I think they are good well rounded lists, R-Type included. I've never seen a better top list. Hopefully you new guys won't blow it this year. I noticed quite a few total posts: 1 in that topic. 8)

Heh, if you like basically every one on the list, you're pretty damn well rounded. I know most of us aren't close to as balanced - myself included.

[uwfan]

im moderately rounded, but not completely.

i went to the doctor and he told me i was an oval.

[Tar-Palantir]

OK, I need a bit of help before finalizing things:

I don't know/couldn't find out enough about these games to determine whether or not they're shmups or not.

I can vouch for Baryon (a Korean-made Raidenesque shmup) and Strahl (a sidescrolling militaristic shmup).

[Herr Schatten]

OK, I need a bit of help before finalizing things:

I don't know/couldn't find out enough about these games to determine whether or not they're shmups or not.

• Beamrider
• Sanxion (is the radar just a gimmick or is it 3D gameplay?)
• Space War (more like 2D Wing Commander)

Beamrider is about halfway between Galaga and Tempest. You've got a grid and your ship can only stop at the beams of the grid, but it doesn't "jump" from position to position like it does in Tempest. The enemies move freely and for the most part don't follow the lines of the grid.

For me it's a shmup through and through, but it might be questionable for others, so I suggest you try it out and decide for yourself. As Beamrider has been released in various formats you can just pick an emulator and play it. IMO the Atari 2600 vesrion outshines the others, but the C64 and MSX versions are also fine.

If you decide to remove Beamrider (which would be a sad loss), please replace my vote for it with [8] Shikigami no Shiro 2, not with the two Treasure games I proposed in the voting thread. (I didn't have Shiki2 at the time I voted.)


The radar in Sanxion is just a gimmick. There's no 3D gameplay in that game.


I think you should apply to Space War whatever you apply to Asteroids.

[Super Laydock]

Exerion is defenitely a shmup. The background scrolls into the screen indeed but this has absolutely no influence on the game mechanics.
It basically a sort of Galaga type game and pretty fun too.

I had it on the MSX and vouch for it (that is: if you consider Galaga a shmup, then this is one too! ) be elligable (spelling might be off... --> UFO )
for the list.

[Accutron]

[*]Space War (more like 2D Wing Commander)

Zaxxon Yeah, this one's getting tossed for 3D gameplay, but I haven't had a chance to ask the person what they want to replace it with, if anything...

I guess these two are mine eh. Space War would probably be properly called an arena shooter, but since the game predates the distinction between shmups and arena shooters, and was the grandfather of both subgenres (as well as the entire video game industry), I don't see how it can be logically excluded.

If Zaxxon isn't a shmup, what is it? Arena shooter? Certainly not. Rail shooter? Maybe. It was the first with scrolling, interactive terrain though.

Anyway, if those won't pass, I'll replace them with Galaga (arcade) and Solaris (2600)...use Galaga if only one of my picks gets excluded. In case you're not familiar with Solaris, it's an into-screen vert protoshmup.

[alpha5099]

What happened to the voting thread? It seems to have disappeared. I wanted to copy down what everyone voted for.

[Zach Keene]

Voting thread

[Super Laydock]

[*]Space War (more like 2D Wing Commander)

Zaxxon Yeah, this one's getting tossed for 3D gameplay, but I haven't had a chance to ask the person what they want to replace it with, if anything...

If Zaxxon isn't a shmup, what is it? Arena shooter? Certainly not. Rail shooter? Maybe. It was the first with scrolling, interactive terrain though.

Ah come on: Zaxxon is without even the slightest doubt a shmup!
It's defenitely NO rail shooter! It's as much a shmup as Viewpoint or Jet Bomber is.

Please Nullstar, be reasonable and let it on the list! Not like it's gonna have a lot of impact anyway...(though it IS a genuine classic!).

*begging voice*

"please"?

[nullstar]

[*]Space War (more like 2D Wing Commander)

Zaxxon Yeah, this one's getting tossed for 3D gameplay, but I haven't had a chance to ask the person what they want to replace it with, if anything...

I guess these two are mine eh. Space War would probably be properly called an arena shooter, but since the game predates the distinction between shmups and arena shooters, and was the grandfather of both subgenres (as well as the entire video game industry), I don't see how it can be logically excluded.

If Zaxxon isn't a shmup, what is it? Arena shooter? Certainly not. Rail shooter? Maybe. It was the first with scrolling, interactive terrain though.

Anyway, if those won't pass, I'll replace them with Galaga (arcade) and Solaris (2600)...use Galaga if only one of my picks gets excluded. In case you're not familiar with Solaris, it's an into-screen vert protoshmup.

I'll sub Galaga for Zaxxon, and leave Space War (unless you really want to vote for Solaris).

To your question of why Zaxxon isn't a shmup: it's 3D gameplay. Classified as an "On Rails" shooter a la Space Harrier (albeit from a different perspective). True, you only have direct control over your movements through two degrees of freedom, but you are always moving in that third dimension and interacting with a 3D gameworld as such.

As for Space War: There've been times this site has claimed Space War as its own, so I'm not going to worry about resolving the question "officially" unless it starts getting enough votes to rank on the lists...which is why I leave it to you to decide whether you'd rather put the vote for something else or not. However, in response to your question, my thinking is as follows. I don't discount the evolutionary argument of: Space War begat (1) Asteroids and (2) Space Invaders Begat Galaga begat (A) Tempest and (B) Xevious begat 1942, etc. But, if you look at gameplay mechanics (as opposed to superficial things like space ships being your avatar), Space War/Computer Space is an early 1-on-1 combat sim and bears much more in common with that sort of game than it does any you-against-the-invading-empire shmup I can think of, aside from being 2D. The 2D descendants of Space combat sims (those closest in appearance to many shmups): Starflight (and it's shareware knockoff), and the Star Control series are things I think most shooter players would agree fall elsewhere in the family tree than Galaga or Gradius.

I wanted to copy down what everyone voted for.

See my previous post for a complete, alphabetized list... If you want to track by person, then yeah, you have to go back to the other thread.

[nullstar]

Ah come on: Zaxxon is without even the slightest doubt a shmup!
It's defenitely NO rail shooter! It's as much a shmup as Viewpoint or Jet Bomber is.

I can't speak for Jet Bomber (don't think I've played it), but Viewpoint has purely 2D gameplay -- your interactions with the gameworld all take place on the same plane you control movement in. Zaxxon, as said above, involves 3D gameplay -- direct control over two degrees, and forced movement/interaction through a third.

[Shatterhand]

If I am not mistaken, you can't go up and down in Viewpoint.

Jet Bomber, in the other hand, plays much like Zaxxon. (Jet Bomber is an MSX shmup made by Aacksoft, they always tried to make their own versions of arcade games on MSX and make them better... Jet Bomber is their "homage" to Zaxxon, and indeed is a lot better than Zaxxon )

I personally would put Galaga, Gyruss and Zaxxon as shmups...

Baryon is a vertical shmup for PC, with black borders and all.
Strahl is a shmup.. it's horizontal, with airplanes, and it's from UPL
Exerion is a shmup. There's no 3D gameplay on it, it plays very much like a vertical shmup, made by Jaleco
Guardian Force is a shmup too. It's a vertical shmup, horizontal based, with a tank. It has forced scroll and all, the only thing that makes any different from conventional shmups is that you can rotate your turret to fire your secondary weapons in different directions. made by Sucess
Tokyo is a shmup. It's also called Scramble Formation, from Taito, if I remember correctly.
and Beamrider also surely is a shmup. I think the MSX/Coleco version is better than Atari 2600 though . But the Atari 2600 version is amazing basically because of the hardware that's running... Activision made a great job on that game (Like the did in nearly everything else on the 2600 anyway )

I would not call Space Wars a shmup either.

[overdrive]

Okay, here's a question (just asked out of pure curiosity).....

What about Guardian Legend (NES)? On one hand, it's no more than a semi-shmup (combined elements of shmups with those of Zelda clones).

But, if you enter the TGL password, you can play it as a pure shooter without the adventure stages, making it a gray area game for me.

Any opinions?

[Ganelon]

And if Guardic Legend can be counted, then perhaps Zero Divide can as well with its shmups minigame (which is actually pretty decent).

[nullstar]

Okay, here's a question (just asked out of pure curiosity).....

What about Guardian Legend (NES)? On one hand, it's no more than a semi-shmup (combined elements of shmups with those of Zelda clones).

But, if you enter the TGL password, you can play it as a pure shooter without the adventure stages, making it a gray area game for me.

Any opinions?

Historically, shmups (the site) has considered The Guardian Legend a shmup, but I assume that's (as you suggest) greatly helped by "The Code" in which the game is playable as a pure shmup, whereas most games that alternate genres (e.g. Xexyz) are one or the other at any given point and there's no way to strictly play the game one way or the other. (You would expect people to get a bit miffed if people start routinely asking questions about the Xexyz platforming or TGL adventuring levels/areas in Shmups Chat.)

Batman (Genesis/MD), Astro Boy GBA, Gunstar Heroes all include one or two (or more) shmup levels but they often "feel" different than many shmups and (more importantly) only really comprise minor/incidental portions of those games -- not something that stands equal with the rest of them. (But we all love Gunstar Heroes, and I think its review...if still around...is from the days before platform shooters/run-n-guns got the boot.) In cases like this, should the site encourage reviews of the entire game? Probably not. Should it encourage reviews of those particular levels? That seems kind of strange and nonsensical: "Review of Gooba Boy III, levels 2, 5, and 7". But what if the game is, say, as much shmup as action platformer or whatever? It probably doesn't really hurt anything (and is a lot more informative) if a review addresses at least the other major aspects of the game -- or it's not really a review...but for shmups.com purposes it probably shouldn't focus on them. (And having said all that, if you write a review, chances are good that Malc will willingly accept it.)


I think the multi-genre/alternating genre question I just touched on is different than Ganelon's mini-game question, however. Unfortunatlely, I haven't played Zero Divide so can't comment on its mini-game specifically. But, around here, that issue in general seems to depend based on the seasons or roll of the dice or something... As a historical example: When Wario Ware GBA came out, several people posted a high score for the game, which the admins took issue with. (I forget if they made the whole thing move into OT or whether they let the shmup level score stay in high scores and moved the rest). Wario Ware is an extreme example, however...mods/admins might allow, say, a Xexyz hi-score thread if there's actual interest.

From a top 25 perspective, I suppose I wouldn't try to stop someone from voting for "Wario Ware's shmup game"...but I wouldn't take a vote for Wario Ware. I might take one for Xexyz...but probably wouldn't for Astro Boy GBA or Gunstar Heroes (that one would probably be an indicator that the voter thinks platform shooters are considered shmups around here, etc).

[nullstar]

Thanks for everyone's input so far...I think we're currently down to just getting some confirmation on AstroRock 2000.

I personally would put Galaga, Gyruss and Zaxxon as shmups...

I wouldn't say there's consensus, but it seems a majority of people here think it makes the most sense to group one-dimension-of-movement games (like Galaga) with those allowing two...which was why Galaga got the go this year. And since it seems a majority also agrees that perspective (other than 3rd person) is of no matter in determining whether a game is a "shmup" or not, I personally feel Gyruss, etc. ought to get the same treatment as Galaga...but still no word from admins on approving this change of position...so there are a few of you I still need to PM whether you want to recast part of your vote or not. (Again, not going to penalize your vote but it gives you a chance to put in for something else.)

Zaxxon: we're not going to agree on tonight. It goes wherever other "3 dimensions, two of direct control" games like Space Harrier go. But considering those as shmups would be a sea change in the position the admins have taken over the past several years, and won't happen overnight...if at all.

[Super Laydock]

Thanks for everyone's input so far...I think we're currently down to just getting some confirmation on AstroRock 2000.

And Exerion! Both Shatterhand, I and the person voting for it have specified it as a shmup with noone arguing or having counterarguments (there are non so this isn't surprising ).

Why no check it out in mame or on an emulator and see for yourself?

Btw, while I myself consider Zaxxon an absolute shmup I can see your arguments in wanting to keep the list "pure".

[Herr Schatten]

While looking at the list of the games that got votes, this crossed my mind:

You will want to make sure that people who voted for Parodius without specifying a version mean indeed the MSX game and not Parodius Da!, as the latter often is referred to as just "Parodius" by many.