Most complicated shmup?

[Alpolio]

What is the most complicated shmup?

Metal Slug 3 would be a shoe in for it, but it's only got about 2 levels that are true-blue shmupin' levels. So, I'm leaning toward Ikaruga due to the color shield system.

[landshark]

Dimahoo
Armed Police Batrider

[Rob]

Metal Slug 3 would be a shoe in for it,

Why?

[Pirate1019]

I would say if you are looking for complicated control schemes then wouldn't Radiant Silvergun fit in? There were, what, 6 different weapons readily available and three different buttons to use them?

[BulletMagnet]

I would say if you are looking for complicated control schemes then wouldn't Radiant Silvergun fit in? There were, what, 6 different weapons readily available and three different buttons to use them?

Seven, including the sword. Though the Saturn port allowed you to set each weapon to a different button, which makes things easier.

The Raizing titles already mentioned are pretty complex overall, Batrider for all its secret stuff/wide character selection, and Dimahoo for the item system...Garegga's rank system is more complicated than theirs, though, or at least I think it is. I might also make mention of Radirgy, since playing for score in that one requires you to set up your ship in the manner most agreeable to you, and then keep track of several different things at once when play starts.

[Pirate1019]

Ikaruga should at least get some mention due to it's semi-puzzle qualities. Batrider gets a nod from me. I am in the dark regarding Garegga'a rank system and scoring system so that one gets my vote.

[Kejardon]

Tyrian deserves a mention. Ship dependant button combos on a shmup, not to mention a number of other oddities rare in shmups.

[JJG]

Yeah I'm not understanding why Metal Slug would be there either. You have one button for shot and one for grenade, maybe you meant most difficult games?

[Frogacuda]

The unusual scoring system makes me want to say Progear.

[BulletMagnet]

I am in the dark regarding Garegga'a rank system and scoring system so that one gets my vote.

Take a bit of time to read up here. Complicated, but it makes the game a ways less intimidating once you understand it.

The unusual scoring system makes me want to say Progear.

I'm personally hesitant to put most any Cave game under the "complicated" label, since while a lot of their scoring mechanics are weird off the cuff, once you figure most of them out there are really only one or two things you need to keep in mind, and the rest more or less takes care of itself. In Progear, for instance, it's basically A) Get a big bunch of rings. B) Get a big bunch of stones. C) Repeat. D) Refine to get more out of it. Just add "don't die or bomb" to most titles and you've got the same basic idea: not easy, certainly, or "shallow" either, but I don't know if I'd call it overly "complicated" on the whole.

[CIT]

Dimahoo
Guwange
Armed Police Batrider
Battle Garegga
Espgaluda
Radiant Silvergun
Einhänder
G Darius
hmm... the Shikigami games too, I guess

[Rob]

Chaos Field

[Pirate1019]

Chaos Field

What was so complex about it? Did you lose track of the power meter? The game seemed simple, on the whole.

[Alpolio]

Metal Slug 3 would be a shoe in for it,

Why?

In the sense that you have all of the different vehicles in the game, each one with their own unique strengths & weaknesses. And you have to find them during the game, and protect them during gameplay or you'll loose them. I don't know of any other shmup that has a powerup system quite like that. And running on foot when you don't have a vehicle kind of makes this a hybrid shmup/run-n-gun which is another added feature in itself.

[shiftace]

Radio Zonde (PC, free) is up there. Six ships with different, 4-button control schemes and a half dozen attacks, multiple paths, a weak shield, and a weird, very sensitive scoring system. You don't want to know how long it took me to beat, just 1 route and 1 ship on normal difficulty.

[Limbrooke]

Espgaluda

huh?

Maybe I'm idiot but I don't find this game complicated at all, rather one of Cave's simpler games. I do agree on Guwange part, although ESP Ra De might be a bit more confusing me thinks

[jp]

Border Down gets my vote. It has rank. It has different paths. It has the crazy break meter. There's just all kinds of crazy stuff going on in that game. Not to mention 4 different possible final levels pending on your border percentages.

[Kaiser]

Armed police batrider, Battle garrega and battle bakraid

[Edge]

Guwange was probably the most difficult to get into for me.
Other games like Dimahoo are complicated, but you can simply start to blast stuff and after a while figuring how to get full item sets.... and cursing the game for your inconsistent runs.

Have never played it, but Radiant Silvergun sounds indeed like it might be difficult to get used to.

hmmm, I found Einhänder's control scheme very intuitive from the first time I played it. But everyone reacts different on a certain new control set up.

[Danny]

I can't beleave nobody has mentioned Defender and it's ilk yet...

[DEL]

jp wrote;

Border Down gets my vote. It has rank. It has different paths. It has the crazy break meter. There's just all kinds of crazy stuff going on in that game. Not to mention 4 different possible final levels pending on your border percentages.

You must be right.
The proof is in the number of players who have actually taken it on properly -> 3.
Its not a pick up and blast game.
If you try that, you won't get anywhere.


A full 6 button double autofire rigged Japanese arcade cab Mush is quite a lot to get your brain around (properly).

Unlike Border Down, Batrider can be played with absolutely no knowledge of the many secrets. Mills walked in the arcade one day (had never seen Batrider before) and 1CC'd Normal Course on his first credit ever. -- So, Batrider can be simple or complex, depending on whether you simply blast or go for score. This does not apply to Border Down.


Regs, DEL

Edit: RE: Danny's Defender comment-->Yes I agree! I was about 12 when I first came across a Williams Defender cab in a local newsagent shop. The controls were some kind of nightmare for a 12 year old to manipulate

[zakk]

A full 6 button double autofire rigged Japanese arcade cab Mush is quite a lot to get your brain around (properly).

The high-level XII Stag players apparently have a 7 button setup to fit in all the required autofire rates.

I think there's still more weirdness to the Mushi setups; way more holding 2 buttons, holding one button and tapping, tapping one button etc etc.

[Frederik]

I woulnd´t say RSG is complicated because of it`s seven weapons - to me it was quite easy to get used to the three buttons while playing it (rudimentary in MAME). If anything, the leveling up and the chaining system is complicated.

Likewise, Ikaruga is more a good example for a non-complicated, minimalistic shmup. Powerups? None. One shot, one "bomb", one for the polarity. And the scoring system is very easy to understand. It is complex, without a doubt, one of the most complex shooters out there, but not complicated. Complicated means taking a lot of work to get results that should be reached easier, complexity can also be complicated but it shouldn`t be IMO.

If a game is complicated it means to me you have to mess around with counter-intuitive control schemes. And while I wanted to mention the Touhou games for their weird scoring systems (which I never got into), they are not complicated to play. They are complex.

[Frederik]

Radio Zonde (PC, free) is up there. Six ships with different, 4-button control schemes and a half dozen attacks, multiple paths, a weak shield, and a weird, very sensitive scoring system. You don't want to know how long it took me to beat, just 1 route and 1 ship on normal difficulty.

I never even understood how to END this game, it`s that confusing.

[Acid King]

Probably Bakraid. Tactical suicides, timer stalling, and only certain enemies are chainable. Not to mention that just setting the game up properly to see how the game works requires "secret" button inputs.

[The Coop]

Space Battleship Gomorrah comes to mind.

[shiftace]

Radio Zonde (PC, free) is up there. Six ships with different, 4-button control schemes and a half dozen attacks, multiple paths, a weak shield, and a weird, very sensitive scoring system. You don't want to know how long it took me to beat, just 1 route and 1 ship on normal difficulty.

I never even understood how to END this game, it`s that confusing.

Hold Escape for 5 seconds to end a stage. It shouldn't take long to run out of lives either, unless you're in Immortal mode, which is the default for Mahilo and Yoxola, which are the only two characters/ships visible on the menu screen. Change this setting in the Switch menu. Note that the other 4 ships cannot be set to Immortal, and changing characters will reset Mahilo/Yoxola to Immortal. Finally, the standard game is accessed by Touring mode.

It'd be nice if the authors would clean up the menu interface, the game's inaccessible enough without this extra mess. Then again, it's probably explained very clearly somewhere (in Japanese).

[Galdur]

I'd say basically any game in which the scoring mechanic isn't self evident is complicated. As soon as I have to consult some outside source, the game becomes more complicated than it probably should be. Note, however, that I'm not saying anything about the quality of the experience, here.

In short, I'd put most (all?) Raizing games and Border Down on my list.

[jp]

The proof is in the number of players who have actually taken it on properly -> 3.

I've been trying to take it on properly for awhile... but Border Down is kind of a "pick up and play for a month then move on" ordeal for me for whatever reason, so whenever I pick it back up its like I'm starting alllll over again. At one point I could make it to Stage 5 properly though with a score around 60mill (me botching stage 4, nor pulling off the 999 break in stage 3).

These days I'm lucky to hit stage 4.

[Frederik]

@shiftace, maybe you could write a small overview of Radio Zonde in the review section - I remember being mildly interested in it, but the mass of options was too much for me.