Tried out Under Defeat on DC today for 1st time...

[Randorama]

Or I could just reply with "I hope you're just trolling and not actually retarded".

Please. Collectors can teach to us OCD chimps, who actually play games, the true purpose of videogames any time of the week. That is, collecting. Why you even question that, it's beyond any rational attempt

And why UD triggers this kind of threads is also beyond said attempt

[professor ganson]

[Battle Garegga is] ok, and I enjoy it. It could have been much better with a more sensible rank-system, though, for instance one that doesn't PUNISH YOU FOR SHOOTING. Or that doesn't constantly go up no matter what you do.

It may sound crazy, but I actually enjoy shooting stuff in shmups. If I don't want to shoot, then I play Tetris*.

Ceph, it's somewhat ironic that you would raise this criticism of Garrega, when punishing for shooting is found in Compile's masterpiece, Zanac.

Honestly, though, I tend to agree with Ceph. Most of the time I prefer to focus on dodging enemy fire, and prefer to fire continuously. I can understand, though, that for more advanced players the greater complexity is welcome as it adds depth to the gameplay.

I just want to add to my previous remarks here (not that anyone cares):
(i) I do know how to spell Battle Garegga.
(ii) I'm a big fan of the game. Indeed,
(iii) I am wearing my Battle Garegga shirt today.

[Rob]

I think people often discredit a game's challenge in order to make some kind of point about what masterful shmup players they are.

That would be one weird interpretation of "the first 2 levels in Under Defeat are too easy and boring." Which leaves room for 3 decent challenging levels, but hey.

I think people have a problem with criticism of shooters. In the SNES thread I made, I rated most of the usual games at the top of the heap, but people didn't like that they weren't 11!/10. Yes, you too can criticize shooters and enjoy them!

[Pirate1019]

It's called being realistic. . Not every shooter is excellent and even the best shooter has it's faults.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

Well I don't have much sympathy for a videogame. It's not a person. Maybe I'm not too attached to them. I just think some games are better than others. That's all.

[professor ganson]

I think people often discredit a game's challenge in order to make some kind of point about what masterful shmup players they are.

No doubt this sort of thing happens sometimes, but not in this thread. In any case the more common fault, I believe, is that in assessing games with respect to level of challenge people do not always properly qualify claims like "This game is not sufficiently challenging" and "This game is too challenging." Obviously such claims are not true (or false) full-stop, but only when qualified in some way, like "relative to other shmups of that period" or some such.

In my own case, when I am coming up with my top 25 list, I do my best to set aside my abilities and try not to count it against a game that it is a bit easy for me (Zanac Neo, Harmful Park) or really hard for me (Giga Wing, Mars Matrix). Of course, compared to those who are more advanced, I have the advantage that some games do not seem boring to me and the disadvantage that some seem terribly frustrating. One of the key difficulties in assessing games is that we have a hard time setting aside these advantages and disadvantages when we are doing so.

[Ceph]

I buy games I like and I play them for my enjoyment. I don't (knowingly) add games I don't like to my collection. It's quite simple. For instance, I enjoy Spriggan. I don't much care what other people who consider themselves more qualified to decide what is good for me think about it. I do play the games I buy, and I put many hours of playtime into my favorites, and I often go back to them.
I don't obsess with one single game for months because I think life is too short and there are too many enjoyable games I wish to spend time with. I also don't find it necessary to obsess with scores (to the point where people think I'm cheating), but I have 1ccd a few of my favorites.

And now for The Shock: My definition fun may differ from yours. For instance, some people derive pleasure from pain. I don't.

I think my opinion and perspective is just as valid as anyone elses. And if I consider a game mechanism to be flawed, then maybe it is.

Collectors can teach to us OCD chimps, who actually play games, the true purpose of videogames any time of the week. That is, collecting. Why you even question that, it's beyond any rational attempt

Who was this directed at?

I just want to add to my previous remarks here (not that anyone cares):
(i) I do know how to spell Battle Garegga.
(ii) I'm a big fan of the game. Indeed,
(iii) I am wearing my Battle Garegga shirt today.

Yeah, that was unnecessary. Be your own man, have your own opinion

[Rob]

And now for The Shock: My definition fun may differ from yours.

No no no, there are two ways to play:

1. fun
2. score

There are not multiple definitions for fun. It means not playing for score. (Please bulletmagnet add this to the glossary.)

[Ceph]

And now for The Shock: My definition fun may differ from yours.

No no no, there are two ways to play:

1. fun
2. score

There are not multiple definitions for fun. It means not playing for score. (Please bulletmagnet add this to the glossary.)

Wait, you mean to tell me it's not fun to you to play for score? Then why do you do it?

[Rob]

Bragging rights.

[EOJ]

No no no, there are two ways to play:

1. fun
2. score

There are not multiple definitions for fun. It means not playing for score. (Please bulletmagnet add this to the glossary.)

Some people have no fun if they're not playing for score. Since the two (fun & score) can overlap, your exclusive divisions are at best arbitrary and at worst contradictory.

[Arvandor]

My two cents on Battle Garegga.

I can definately appretiate what Garegga has to offer, and can easily see why it's so widely loved. This particular game however, is not my cup of tea. The way you need to play the game is not the way I like to play my shooters, and that's about all there is to it really.

My two cents on Under Defeat

I really like this game. I think it's a lot of fun, and the first two levels aren't any easier than many other shooters in the first couple levels. I can't actually believe difficulty is a complaint with this game, as it seems to ramp up quickly. Or maybe I just suck serious arse.

For the record, my top 5 favorite shooters: Ikaruga, ESPGALUDA, Mars Matrix, Perfect Cherry Blossom, Dodonpachi

[Ceph]

The way you need to play the game [Battle Garegga] is not the way I like to play my shooters, and that's about all there is to it really.

Good for you. And I don't think you're a retard for having this opinion.

[professor ganson]

Be your own man, have your own opinion

Fair enough. I'll be like Al Gore and be my own man. (But don't be surprised, if, like Al Gore, I'm less successful all on my own. ) Mainly I like shmups insofar as they present an interesting challenge. I'm probably among the least "manly" here to the extent that I'm not really interested in shooting stuff just to shoot stuff or make explosion. In fact, I most prefer shmups like Shiki II and Dragon Blaze that move away from traditional shooting. Garegga is one of the deepest challenges I've faced in shmups. For that reason it has a firm place in my top 10 games.

Really my interest in shmups is probably a kind of offspring of my interest in puzzle games. In both cases I enjoy: serious challenge, fast-paced gameplay, being able to play for just 10 minutes, and near-infinite replay value.

I also really enjoy the aesthetic side of shmups. Some are among my favorites in large part because of how they look and sound. Harmful Park and Zanac Neo come to mind. Nostalgia plays some role here as well.

And now for The Shock: My definition fun may differ from yours.

No no no, there are two ways to play:

1. fun
2. score

There are not multiple definitions for fun. It means not playing for score. (Please bulletmagnet add this to the glossary.)

That's just Rob's usual irony. (Rob = Socrates of the Shumps Forum)

[Icarus]

The way you need to play the game [Battle Garegga] is not the way I like to play my shooters, and that's about all there is to it really.

Good for you. And I don't think you're a retard for having this opinion.

I respect his opinion more as, unlike you, he doesn't present a factually incorrect argument.

Some people have no fun if they're not playing for score. Since the two (fun & score) can overlap, your exclusive divisions are at best arbitrary and at worst contradictory.

You forgot point no. 3: Sarcastic.

Please. Collectors can teach to us OCD chimps, who actually play games, the true purpose of videogames any time of the week. That is, collecting. Why you even question that, it's beyond any rational attempt

Crap, I can feel my OCD kicking in again. Time to scratch that itch and play Guwange.
Yes, that's play, as opposed to scouring eBay for a complete kit to feed the hoarding urge.
Collectors. Pfft. Human squirrels.

[Pirate1019]

Bragging rights.

And bragging is fun, so in the end you win too.

[CIT]

Please. Collectors can teach to us OCD chimps, who actually play games, the true purpose of videogames any time of the week. That is, collecting. Why you even question that, it's beyond any rational attempt

Crap, I can feel my OCD kicking in again. Time to scratch that itch and play Guwange.
Yes, that's play, as opposed to scouring eBay for a complete kit to feed the hoarding urge.
Collectors. Pfft. Human squirrels.

Right, because we all know that shmups forum members are either collectors or gamers, and an overlap of the two would be a physiological impossibility.

BTW, Icarus. I thought you owned a complete set of Ibara figurines. You only bought them to play with, I take it?

[Icarus]

BTW, Icarus. I thought you owned a complete set of Ibara figurines. You only bought them to play with, I take it?

Of course. Stop-motion animation for the win. (￣▽￣)

[Twiddle]

I thought people bought figurines only to make semen on figure videos

[Icarus]

I thought people bought figurines only to make semen on figure videos

People only do that on 4chan.
OH SHI~

[lynchesque]

Haven't really played Garegga enough to make a educated comment (although I've played the demo on Souky and the bullets are hard to distinguish from the shrapnel).

But I have the segadirect LE version of Under Defeat arriving this week and I'm f'n pumped.

[Halloween Jack]

I buy games I like and I play them for my enjoyment. I don't (knowingly) add games I don't like to my collection.

Same here, but by not conferring with board members first, I've ended up with Skull Fang and Trizeal

And now for The Shock: My definition fun may differ from yours. For instance, some people derive pleasure from pain. I don't.

With you all the way there Ceph - but I always feel the need to achieve a sense of "advancement" each time I play the game. The issue I have is that many games are not sufficiently balanced to provide such rewards, and these are the ones that I'm happy to overlook.

Be your own man, have your own opinion

Here, here, but personally I always make an informed call based upon value added from the pro's

Cheers

Halloween Jack

[BBH]

FTW BURN IN HELL!

yeah, I wish that horrible acronym would die too.

p.s. I despise Garegga and love Under Defeat.

[Twiddle]

i like under defeat but honestly i don't see myself seriously playing it, not even as much as i did raiden 3 and i was kind of put off by that as well

what happened to games where you had to juggle about a dozen little things

[Rob]

Now let's have a "cool things about Under Defeat" segment!

Gimmicky as it may be, the 4th (?) boss' blinding light beam is really cool. And also the voice transmissions at the end of the stage. Nice touch.

I'm saddened that there are multiple people well into the loop (and with good scores).

[BBH]

what happened to games where you had to juggle about a dozen little things

This is why I like the game so much, that I don't have to worry about having to keep track of too many things at once, and no chaining so if I screw one thing up I don't have to start over if I want a decent score.

I'm saddened that there are multiple people well into the loop (and with good scores).

honestly, I'm surprised more people haven't reached the loop.

[Neon]

no chaining so if I screw one thing up I don't have to start over if I want a decent score.

Actually, I still kinda felt this way with Under Defeat. Lose a life in the third stage and you'll never make it to where you were last night when you made it to the 4th boss without dying. Really a pisser although definitely not as bad as Ikaruga or something in this respect.

@ CIT: Not trying to brag, I suck (check the high score section if you don't believe me) but once you can consistently do the first few stages there's very little challenge to it...and it's not like Gunbird 2 where there's a coin chain or something to keep working on. Kinda like Donpachi, fun game but it takes so long to get to the hard bit but then the hard bit is really hard, which is why the stage select feature is really nice but then you can't participate in the compo. I guess I'm just impatient.

n00bs>Gradius 5>Treasure>>>>>>>>>>Under Defeat

just kiddin'

[Dandy J]

I thought people bought figurines only to make semen on figure videos

yah idk thats why i do it

i play for funscore

[BBH]

no chaining so if I screw one thing up I don't have to start over if I want a decent score.

Actually, I still kinda felt this way with Under Defeat. Lose a life in the third stage and you'll never make it to where you were last night when you made it to the 4th boss without dying. Really a pisser although definitely not as bad as Ikaruga or something in this respect.

how so? even if you lose a life, it does not directly have a huge impact on your score... hell, it actually gives you slightly MORE points at the end of a level.

If you mean it's because when you die you only have two lives left, and you won't be able to get as far... well, doesn't that go for pretty much any shmup that's not easy enough to do on one or two lives? My point is that dying at some random part in the level is not going to instantly kill any chance you have of getting a good score. Dying and dropping the chain on a Cave game? Much more so.

@ CIT: Not trying to brag, I suck (check the high score section if you don't believe me) but once you can consistently do the first few stages there's very little challenge to it...and it's not like Gunbird 2 where there's a coin chain or something to keep working on.

you can always try squeezing more points out of the first couple levels with x2 bonuses.

[Icarus]

i play for funscore

That should be in the glossary.