Tried out Under Defeat on DC today for 1st time...

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:51 pm

Randorama wrote:This thread sounds like "shmup lounge chat".

Yeah, we've been chillin with gin martinis. Glad you could join us. Under Defeat sucks after three drinks, though we still enjoy talkin about it. [Ha, it's Friday again and my lame humor returns.]

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:58 pm

With all the people in this thread who are hating on UD it seems like at least one would be able to part with it for a good price, let me know.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:46 pm

I picture me and the prof getting drunk while drinking Manhattans, talking about Wittgestein and Gunbird 2, while "My way" or some other Sinatra classic plays in the background. Damn, now i want a Martini and i still have to work

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:55 pm

It'd be funnier if you and the prof were the ones singing "My Way," martinis in hand.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:57 pm

A cab with Battle Garegga in the pub and Bullet Magnet saying "ehi, when i'm drunk rank is bearable!" would be the best

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:02 pm

Maybe a pint or two'd help me 1CC it, who knows. At this point, I'll try just about anything.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:14 pm

but I think anyone who claims it's "sooo boring" or "crap-looking" is going way out of their way to try and find more faults with the game than exist. Also these people seem not to realize that not liking something does not necessarily preclude one from acknowledging its merits

I see ALOT of this on here and I'm sometimes kinda shocked.... I try to bite my tounge but a few days ago I saw someone ragging on gradius 5 and I was so aggrivated. I can understand how a certain style of shooter appeals to certain folks more ect. What I don't get is how a game automatically sux ass b/c it's not their "style". I have my favorites and the ones i play the most often but I still own or play the others more often than not.

Statements saying gradius 5, radient silvergun, ect sux I think is more likely that person trying to feel special by going against the majority. Kinda like the those kids in high school who dressed all in black not b/c they actually like the color black but b/c they thought it made them so special and superior to everyone else.

MOSQUITO FIGHTER · Post by **MOSQUITO FIGHTER** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:24 pm

I just think it's a boring game. I do like the bosses and how the helicopter rotates. That's about it. I really tried to like it too. Maybe I can sell it for a bunch of money one day being the last dc shmup and all. The cows are in superior form in Raiden DX.

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:33 pm

I hope it's not the last DC game, I'm holding out hope for a Shiki 3 port.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:00 pm

JJG wrote:I hope it's not the last DC game, I'm holding out hope for a Shiki 3 port.

Why would Shiki 3 even be considered for a DC port? It's a Type-X game, not NAOMI. The 2 DC port possibilities at this time are Trigger Hearts Exelica and Karous.

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:11 pm

That's not the point, I said I'm "hoping." Also regardless UD isn't going to be the last DC shmup 'cause Last Resort is confirmed.

LSU · Post by **LSU** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 pm

Wow. This is my third favourite DC shmup (after Ikaruga and Shiki 2), so I'm surprised to hear so many criticisms, but I suppose it is a little different to most modern shooters - there's certainly not much in the way of a gameplay 'hook'. (Even the heli- rotation control was done pretty much the same way before in Sonic Wings.) The production values are just so high, though - the presentation, the graphics, the little details are all really spot on. And I think it's a really solid game too. Maybe the scoring isn't that complex but it's got great level design. It's certainly kept me compulsively playing and coming back for more than most recent games I can think of.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:37 pm

I think I'd place UD about 8th place for DC shooters, which isn't too bad.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:46 am

Strider77 wrote:
but I think anyone who claims it's "sooo boring" or "crap-looking" is going way out of their way to try and find more faults with the game than exist. Also these people seem not to realize that not liking something does not necessarily preclude one from acknowledging its merits
I see ALOT of this on here and I'm sometimes kinda shocked.... I try to bite my tounge but a few days ago I saw someone ragging on gradius 5 and I was so aggrivated. I can understand how a certain style of shooter appeals to certain folks more ect. What I don't get is how a game automatically sux ass b/c it's not their "style". I have my favorites and the ones i play the most often but I still own or play the others more often than not.

Statements saying gradius 5, radient silvergun, ect sux I think is more likely that person trying to feel special by going against the majority. Kinda like the those kids in high school who dressed all in black not b/c they actually like the color black but b/c they thought it made them so special and superior to everyone else.

Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with deliberate contrarianism. Also, I think people often discredit a game's challenge in order to make some kind of point about what masterful shmup players they are. "Pah! This game!? I can play it in my sleep!" etc.
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that the shooter genre has been perfected to the point that today 85% of new shmups are really very good to solid games. Maybe people ought to play some more Amiga or PC-Engine shooters in order to see the broad perspective.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:55 am

JJG wrote:That's not the point, I said I'm "hoping." Also regardless UD isn't going to be the last DC shmup 'cause Last Resort is confirmed.

Last Hope... and it isn't an official release. There's still plenty of homebrew software in the works for the DC.

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:15 am

Yeah Last Hope, I was just glancing at a thread about last resort on mvs when I wrote that. The release seems like it will be a lot more professional that most homebrew games.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:21 am

I've liked Under Defeat more than Border Down from what I've played so far. It's a combination of both the presentation and the lack of a scoring system so abstract when considered in the context of the game's universe that it leaves me scratching my head as to how doing all of that indicates excellent performance.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:46 am

CIT wrote:
Strider77 wrote:
but I think anyone who claims it's "sooo boring" or "crap-looking" is going way out of their way to try and find more faults with the game than exist. Also these people seem not to realize that not liking something does not necessarily preclude one from acknowledging its merits
I see ALOT of this on here and I'm sometimes kinda shocked.... I try to bite my tounge but a few days ago I saw someone ragging on gradius 5 and I was so aggrivated. I can understand how a certain style of shooter appeals to certain folks more ect. What I don't get is how a game automatically sux ass b/c it's not their "style". I have my favorites and the ones i play the most often but I still own or play the others more often than not.

Statements saying gradius 5, radient silvergun, ect sux I think is more likely that person trying to feel special by going against the majority. Kinda like the those kids in high school who dressed all in black not b/c they actually like the color black but b/c they thought it made them so special and superior to everyone else.
Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with deliberate contrarianism. Also, I think people often discredit a game's challenge in order to make some kind of point about what masterful shmup players they are. "Pah! This game!? I can play it in my sleep!" etc.
Anyway, the fact of the matter is that the shooter genre has been perfected to the point that today 85% of new shmups are really very good to solid games. Maybe people ought to play some more Amiga or PC-Engine shooters in order to see the broad perspective.

Yes.

PS.
Compile shooters are so boring and easy, my dog could beat them if they wouldn't make it fall asleep. Under Defeat has ugly graphics, Pong looks better. R-Type Final is the uber-worst game ever. Treasure ruined Gradius V, it's so repetitive using the same old bosses and all. Rank in Battle Garegga is well executed, fair and quite self-explanatory, it's there to make the game challenging and not to make players insert more coins. Cave rules and having one million projectiles on screen is very innovative. To prevent my attention deficit disorder from kicking in I need complex scoring systems that require me to tap morse code with my controller, and medals for the win. Man, how I love medals. Medals are the best. Did I mention I like medals?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:00 am

Ceph wrote:PS. Compile shooters are so boring and easy, my dog can beat them. Under Defeat has ugly graphics, Pong looks better. R-Type Final is the uber-worst game ever. Treasure ruined Gradius V, it's so repetitive using the same old bosses and all. Rank in Battle Garegga is well executed, fair and quite self-explanatory, it's there to make the game challenging and not to make players insert more coins. Cave rules and having one million projectiles on screen is very innovative. To prevent my attention deficit disorder from kicking in I need complex scoring systems that require me to tap morse code with my controller, and medals for the win. Man how I love medals. Medals are the best. Did I mention I like medals?

bolded are obvious untruths to those that actually play the games

pps. Radiant Silvergun is such an excellent game, having to leave 3/4 of all enemies on screen to actually progress in the game and play it correctly, leading to an experience akin to being a traffic control operator where your office is mobile and is vulnerable to impact from the traffic you're controlling

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:05 am

Another great thing related to Under Defeat is that most of the discussions about this game involve some zany invectives against (usually):

1) Scoring systems
2) Old skoolers (whatever they are)
3) 3D graphics

Add that some "Darwin awards waiting to happen" also add the very fundamental issues of having the very exclusive last shmup for DC (so all 5-yo in the turf will envy them, and they will campaign *hard* against the immoral reprints!) or about storytelling, and we have the sweetest topics around.

Someone should unban Recap, he would really raise the quality of threads

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:09 am

placing Raiden 3 above Under Defeat in the gameplay department is such a brilliant unintentional troll

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:10 am

@Twiddle: My PS was teh sarcasm, I thought it was obvious.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:12 am

You can't be sarcastic about "R-Type Final is the uber-worst game ever", can you?

...

...

...

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:19 am

Twiddle wrote:You can't be sarcastic about "R-Type Final is the uber-worst game ever", can you?

It's probably the weakest R-Type, sure. But there are lots of Planet Jokers out there.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:19 am

does that mean you dislike garegga??! FTW BURN IN HELL!
(this is NOT sarcasm.im totally serious!)

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:21 am

We haven't seen a Planet Joker since Planet Joker, sorry.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:23 am

Twiddle wrote:We haven't seen a Planet Joker since Planet Joker, sorry.

But you do agree that Planet Joker is worse and that there are other shmups which are also worse than R-Type Final? Calling Final "The worst" is the kind of exaggeration CIT was talking about.

Plasmo wrote:does that mean you dislike garegga??! FTW BURN IN HELL!
(this is NOT sarcasm.im totally serious!)

It's ok, and I enjoy it. It could have been much better with a more sensible rank-system, though, for instance one that doesn't PUNISH YOU FOR SHOOTING. Or that doesn't constantly go up no matter what you do.

It may sound crazy, but I actually enjoy shooting stuff in shmups. If I don't want to shoot, then I play Tetris*.

*Yes, you could now reply with "Or you could play those long passages in R-Type Final where nothing happens."

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:59 am

Ceph wrote:
Twiddle wrote:We haven't seen a Planet Joker since Planet Joker, sorry.
But you do agree that Planet Joker is worse and that there are other shmups which are also worse than R-Type Final? Calling Final "The worst" is the kind of exaggeration CIT was talking about.

Worst ever might be pushing it (honestly, that award goes to Tugboat) but it is the worst shooting game to make a significant appearance for modern consoles this decade, though.

Post by **Icarus** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:33 pm

Ceph wrote:It's ok, and I enjoy it. It could have been much better with a more sensible rank-system, though, for instance one that doesn't PUNISH YOU FOR SHOOTING. Or that doesn't constantly go up no matter what you do.

It may sound crazy, but I actually enjoy shooting stuff in shmups. If I don't want to shoot, then I play Tetris*.

* Or Every Extend. Or running into incoming traffic.
Your comments scream "ignorance". Quite funny really.

Ceph wrote:*Yes, you could now reply with "Or you could play those long passages in R-Type Final where nothing happens."

Or I could just reply with "I hope you're just trolling and not actually retarded".

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:09 pm

Ceph wrote: [Battle Garegga is] ok, and I enjoy it. It could have been much better with a more sensible rank-system, though, for instance one that doesn't PUNISH YOU FOR SHOOTING. Or that doesn't constantly go up no matter what you do.

It may sound crazy, but I actually enjoy shooting stuff in shmups. If I don't want to shoot, then I play Tetris*.

Ceph, it's somewhat ironic that you would raise this criticism of Garrega, when punishing for shooting is found in Compile's masterpiece, Zanac.

Honestly, though, I tend to agree with Ceph. Most of the time I prefer to focus on dodging enemy fire, and prefer to fire continuously. I can understand, though, that for more advanced players the greater complexity is welcome as it adds depth to the gameplay.