Best Cave game? Experts please discuss

[professor ganson]

Of Cave games, I've played all and only those that have console releases. Have I played the best that Cave has to offer? I'm assuming many will answer 'no'. So what's best and why? The voting thread is pretty uninformative: I just hear "this sux" and "that sux". Surely our resident experts can say more.

Just for the record, I'd say that DDP has been my favorite so far. Pretty predictable answer, I know. I also like DOJ, but haven't spent much time with it.

[sven666]

only cave game that sux is dangun feveron.

the rest are brilliant in varying degrees.. and on top? ketsui!

im done..

[Icarus]

Guwange > *

[Rob]

-DOJ - Ups the ante on their most indentifiable game. I think enemy chaining is really awful, but the game is fun anyways. As for Cave games with interesting/fun scoring systems, I'd say the below two are by far the best they've done.
-Guwange - Their most original game (bullet manipulation = best shmup innovation of the 90s), a clear influence for Giga Wing and Mars Matrix. Lots of room for scoring strategy.
-Dangun Feveron - Another unique game for Cave, in that it emphasizes speed + the hardest default scoring chart ever. Also has solid style.

These are the only essentials. No, not every derivative Cave game is an essential (hi, top 25 list). No, multiple game difficulty levels is not an innovation. Haven't played Ketsui, though.

[Limbrooke]

Really this shouldn't ask what is good, rather what isn't good.
Although that isn't a question I can answer myself.
What's good though... Espgaluda and DoDonPachi for me.
Ketsui might be pretty good too.

[Necronom]

For me: definitely GUWANGE!
Beautiful flow, beautiful graphics/theme and some seriously surreal boss monsters. It's just one-of-a-kind.

[Rob]

The graphics in Guwange are soo overrated. Contra: Hard Corps has far more memorable, screwed up 2D bosses. On the Genesis.

[professor ganson]

I suspect that Ibara may prove to be more interesting than DDP in the end, though the relative simplicity and accessibility of DDP is rather nice. Maybe that's why DDP appeals to the less hardcore crowd, like BulletMagnet and myself. Fun music, very polished gameplay, interesting aesthetic. DDP's chaining doesn't bother me as much as, say, Ikaruga's, which I find tedious. And I find it less frustrating than coin chaining in Gunbird 2. At this point DDP is the only Cave that is solidly in my top 25, though, as I say, I have an open mind about Ibara. Oh, and my favorite thing in DDP: seeing those lovely 1ups. The giant stars are nice as well.

So far, of the the ones I haven't played, no one has made me want to play anything other than Guwange.

[captain ahar]

dodonpachi is timeless, but you've played that.

dangun feveron is absolutely amazing, and definitely one of my favorites. it is so demanding in ways that can't be found elsewhere. ganson, try it. seeing as bulletmagnet and i are somewhat kindred spirits, i feel no shame in saying i am not a master. the punishment that this game dishes out scratches a particular itch.

and while i haven't played them yet, what i've seen of Ketsui and Ibara have my hopes high. and ibara will be waiting at home soon. i am sure to giggle like a school girl when i finally get my hands on it...

... progears funner than hell too. only thing with this game is, you wonder if the scoring mechanics could be more convoluted... but you'll get it eventually.

guwange is interesting but in the end, it appeals to me as a curiosity, and doesn't really stand out from the pack too much at all...

[Twiddle]

dangun because it's the only cave game where i can score decently

only cave game that sux is dangun feveron.

the rest are brilliant in varying degrees.. and on top? ketsui!

im done..

If you said Mushihime-sama in place of Ketsui you would have had negative taste as opposed to neutral.

[EOJ]

Espgaluda 2 and Mushihime-sama are tops for me. Ibara is a close third. I don't care much for Guwange, Ketsui, or any of the Donpachis. Mushifutari should go to the top of my list once I get the PCB.

[BulletMagnet]

Maybe that's why DDP appeals to the less hardcore crowd, like BulletMagnet and myself.

What gives it even more credit in my eyes is that it has something to offer just about everyone. Don't like chaining? You can still keep plenty busy finding the bees, keeping the bomb bonus going, and heck, just staying alive. Want a greater challenge? Get to learning chaining and try to beat that second loop. Couple its wide appeal with a balanced craft selection, nice presentation, and forgiving but challenging gameplay, and you've got arguably my all-time favorite shmup.

Anyways, as for some non-console Cave stuff you might want to try, here's my take on what I've played in MAME...

ESP Ra.de: Scoring system's a bit unusual, but once you get the hang of it it's not as daunting as it sounds: the boss milking you hear about is only an issue if you're going for uber-scores, feel free to ignore it. Nice graphics as usual, and the ability to "charge" your bomb a la Galuda, overall a good game, especially if you play relatively casually and the milking's not an issue.

Guwange: I like almost everything about it really, except for the fact that controlling your "spirit buddy" can sometimes be a pain...when you move, it moves, and vice versa, which means that when you try to shift it over you might wander into a bullet, or otherwise when you dodge something you might lose your chain. Being able to take multiple hits per life is nice, though you get pretty much zero invincibility after being hit, so a "chunk" of shots means instant death if it gets you. Otherwise I think just about everything works, as I find chaining more intuitive than in DDP, and the presentation speaks for itself.

Progear: When I first tried it I didn't like it much at all, though it's grown on me a bit...still not Top 25 material though. I honestly found the presentation (especially the music) rather underwhelming, and the "relationship" aspect is one of the weirdest things Cave's ever done. The scoring is more interesting: kill an enemy when bullets are near it, and they turn into score items, so you need to learn this not only for scoring but survival: as such, going from the basics to knowing how to score well isn't much of a jump, though it can get rather frustrating until you learn how to do it. Also, for whatever stupid reason, decides to throw some cheap shots at you from the sides and back, something I'd hoped Cave left behind after DonPachi. Somewhere in the middle of the pack if you ask me.

Dangun Feveron: The cheesy disco theme is great (though not implemented well enough, imo), as is the cutomizability you get for your craft, but frankly I kind of miss the ability to slow down on command for some extra precision when I need it...this game's all about zooming all over the freakin' place to collect the disco men, so the lower the speed you use the (much) lower your score will likely be, though surviving is in itself is no cake walk. Rather simple in nature compared to most of Cave's stuff, some people like it, others (like me) aren't as taken with it, you'll sort of have to find out for yourself.

I haven't played Ketsui, Galuda 2, or Pink Sweets or Mushi 2 yet, though I'm hoping to try the first 2 at bay's upcoming shmeet.

[Venom]

Ketsui would be my favorite, after that, I'm not so sure. Dangun is a fun little game, though it does get annoying. Haven't played the recent ones. Esprade would be further up if you didn't have to do all that damn milking to get a high score. Progear is also a lot of fun, and has a cool style. Got into DOJ recently (though I've been taking a break due to school) and I enjoy it a lot more than I used to.

[Rob]

Guwange: I like almost everything about it really, except for the fact that controlling your "spirit buddy" can sometimes be a pain...when you move, it moves, and vice versa, which means that when you try to shift it over you might wander into a bullet, or otherwise when you dodge something you might lose your chain.

I'm a noob to playing Guwange semi-seriously, but I think the idea is to not really have to dodge stuff while the spirit is activated. Requires some moderate memorization or you'll get swamped.

[Nemo]

1. Progear
2. Guwange
3. DOJ

Everything else.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm a noob to playing Guwange semi-seriously, but I think the idea is to not really have to dodge stuff while the spirit is activated. Requires some moderate memorization or you'll get swamped.

That'd make sense, though oddly enough I find the annoyance I mentioned earlier to be most pronounced during boss fights, when the skull meter decreases more slowly and keeping your chain going is less of an issue than in the stages: it always seems that when I'm holding my spirit on top of the boss to hold a big hunk o' bullets back, one or two little shots from a bit off to the side will come at me, and when I tap to the side to get out of the way, my spirit, which moves a lot faster than the character, goes flying halfway across the screen and unleashes the pattern it'd been holding back, putting me in even more hot water, especially if there's another pattern I'm already dealing with. I really like the game, but that "feature" really glazes my donuts.

[Icarus]

You are not meant to be using your Shikigami constantly anyway, as that restricts your movement and attacking options. Guwange is meant to be played alternating between Shot and Shikigami depending on the situation, for maximum effect.

[Rob]

That'd make sense, though oddly enough I find the annoyance I mentioned earlier to be most pronounced during boss fights,

Yeah, the bosses are a little tricky for me atm. Obviously you'll want to block the same patterns every time, and know what to expect in escapee bullets. The thing that really bothers me is the usual abnormal bullet sizes, which are possibly larger than their average.

[mulletgeezer]

I think the best by a mile is Guwange - the aesthetics, the feel of the game and the unparalleled scoring system put this in a league of it's own. It's incredibly satisfying to play and i find it's fun even when i play badly which is not true of many shmups. It's also the only game ever to make me wish I had independently swivelling eyes, like a chameleon.

Next best might be Progear? It has an awesome scoring system and is great fun, though the music is a bit below par which puts me off a little.

Or maybe i'd rate Ketsui next? Not such a great scoring system, dull visuals and some flickering sprites but it's a really playable game.

Feveron and Esprade are also essential i think and only slightly less awesome than the games i've mentioned above. In fact I'd rate DOJ as pretty much the most inessential Cave game; it's great but it added very little to the genre, also it has much less charm and flair than DDP and some of the sound effects are awful.


On second thoughts Espgaluda 2 is the most innesential, as it added almost nothing at all.

[mulletgeezer]

That'd make sense, though oddly enough I find the annoyance I mentioned earlier to be most pronounced during boss fights,

Yeah, the bosses are a little tricky for me atm. Obviously you'll want to block the same patterns every time, and know what to expect in escapee bullets. The thing that really bothers me is the usual abnormal bullet sizes, which are possibly larger than their average.

it's easy to fall into the habit of using the shiki like some kind of defensive windscreen wiper, but this can lead to problems like BM is having. most boss bullet patterns are perfectly dodgeable and disturbing them will make the game harder, so i'd recommend fighting bosses with the shiki very high up the screen to keep it clear of bullets, then you'll work out which patterns you might want to disturb as you practise the game. the wiping method can be very useful for scoring points in the stages though.


you have windshields where you come from, eh?

[Rob]

also it has much less charm and flair than DDP

DDP is cheesy and grating. Dorky guitar wailing. Cold announcer (I'll take DP's hilariously stupid announcer please). DOJ's soundtrack was pretty nice, or at least the arranged version (loved stage 2). Calming even, which was excellent combined with the harder patterns.

you have windshields where you come from, eh?

Yep, they're far more cool than windscreens.

[mulletgeezer]

also it has much less charm and flair than DDP

DDP is cheesy and grating. Dorky guitar wailing. Cold announcer (I'll take DP's hilariously stupid announcer please). DOJ's soundtrack was pretty nice, or at least the arranged version. Calming even, which was excellent combined with the harder patterns.

I think the cheese really works and the voice is lovely, also the visual style and sound effects add to the charm i think, but i understand it's not for everyone.

The DOJ soundtrack starts excellently but it takes a massive nosedive after the second stage IMO. I find the speech in that game to be shite.

[BulletMagnet]

You are not meant to be using your Shikigami constantly anyway, as that restricts your movement and attacking options. Guwange is meant to be played alternating between Shot and Shikigami depending on the situation, for maximum effect.

Yeah, I try not to, though I guess as Rob says I need to learn the boss patterns better to know which ones are "safest" to block and simultaneously give the skull meter a charge, and memorization's never been my strong suit (whatever that is).

As for DDP's cheesiness, I find that a part of its charm, but of course that sort of thing's just my style, heh heh. Though one odd thought I've always had in the back of my head is that the female announcer (imo) sounds sort of like Plankton's "computer wife" in Spongebob Squarepants..."holographic meatloaf AGAIN?"

[Icarus]

Yeah, I try not to, though I guess as Rob says I need to learn the boss patterns better to know which ones are "safest" to block and simultaneously give the skull meter a charge, and memorization's never been my strong suit (whatever that is).

You very rarely need to "block" patterns. If anything, you treat them like regular Cave patterns, and only use your Shikigami to deal with the really awkward patterns, or to trap a big group for conversion to coins.

EDIT: I would have an example, but my fileshare at ikaruga.co.uk has inexplicably vanished. >_<
There goes all the Garegga ST replays.
And people wonder why I get paranoid about hosting my stuff on other people's servers.

[Rob]

Yeah, I try not to, though I guess as Rob says I need to learn the boss patterns better to know which ones are "safest" to block and simultaneously give the skull meter a charge, and memorization's never been my strong suit (whatever that is).

It's basically the same approach as Takumi took in GW. If you find a good time to recharge the meter (to or just past 5)/activate the spirit, it'll give you about as much time to simply dodge as it depletes. So basically the blocking/recharging coordinates well with meter.

[Pirate1019]

I can understand DP and DDP for more casual players as they are easier to hop into. As such, I seem to like them.

Gwange seems really cool and I like it but, like BM, the control of your spirit is a little shaky in my opinion.

I have ground my mind to dust playing Parsec 47, which is the same game as Ferveron, only more abstract and, at least I think, better for some reason. Excellent game though.

ESP Ra.De. Played it, yet it seemed unrefined, if you ask me. I wasn't too fond of the bubble mechanic, although I can deal with it. I think the character sprites bugged me because they always seemed too big.

My final vote goes for...

DP because I simply do not have the diligence to master any of the other scoring systems. I wouldn't want to play it in a competitive setting though (STGT for example )

Haven't played anything not playable on MAME because, like my name suggests, I'm a Pirate.

[BulletMagnet]

Oddly enough, using the shield in such a manner (even while milking bosses) has never been much of an issue for me in any of the GW games (though my scores are still garbage for all of 'em)...no freakin' clue why.

[CIT]

Espgaluda and Ketsui have the best gameplay.

Guwange and Mushihimesama the nicest look and atmosphere.

[Icarus]

Oddly enough, using the shield in such a manner (even while milking bosses) has never been much of an issue for me in any of the GW games (though my scores are still garbage for all of 'em)...no freakin' clue why.

Like I said, if you're using the Shikigami too much like a defensive weapon, then you're doing it wrong. Since Shikigami use restricts you to a 20-ish pixel area of movement, constant use of it in areas with very fast patterns leads to many quick deaths. Its not a good idea to restrict your mobility in this manner.

Example replay:
http://bigcore.rsdio.com/icarus/guwange_st1boss_icr.avi
(Many thanks to zakk for the space.)

FYI, Guwange and GW have vastly different bullet manipulation mechanics. One technique does not carry over to the other. GW's Reflect Force is meant to be treated as a recharging aggressive weapon, "attacking" clumps of bullets for points. In Guwange, your Shot has more use than your Shikigami, the Shikigami is for bullet-trapping only, with limited defensive and offensive capabilities. It is not your primary weapon, unlike, say Shikigami no Shiro (LOL).

...

I've written "Shikigami" five times in that post. -_-;;

[mulletgeezer]

six times.