Ways to make shmups appeal to mainstreamers again

GateofThunderforceIII · Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:37 pm

pixelcorps, THANK YOU!!! I agree 1000%!!! I've always felt this way about mainstreamers ever since the Saturn days. I really don't see a positive outcome of shooters becoming mainstream unless I would want to see EA develop and publish Fiddy Cent Bust a Cap in Yo' Ass, or John Madden Shooting Football, which I wouldn't.

I'd rather see the genre die rather than be mocked by shooter developer wanna be's from the West just to appeal to sports and GTA loving lamers. Or see Japanese developers waste their talents and resources by trying to appeal to them any more.

(Although Sigma Star Saga was a nice twist.)

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:42 pm

The Saturn stank.

Fiddy Cent Bust a Cap in Yo' Ass, or John Madden Shooting Football

We should combine our efforts to put these FatCobra-esque clichés to rest.

WarCheese · Post by **WarCheese** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:29 pm

Hello all:

All good posts and points here. I like to add a different angle into making shmps mainstream not by changing the game itself, but by how the game is presented to the public. That is, I am talking about "Marketing".

When I chance upon a shmup review from mainstream sources, most of them talk about the same things: 2D = old school, credit-feeding = no replay values, etc... As a shmupper, I disagree with all of these stereotypes; they are not hallmarks of a bad game, they are features of the shmup genre. At this point, I realize that the mainstream gamers have been "educated" to dislike shmups. They find good features from other game genre (e.g. RPG, action, etc), make a list, check them off against the shmup genre, and conclude that shmups are no good. I think that's wrong. It's different type of enjoyment. What's needed is the "reeducation" of the mainstream mindset about why we love shumps, what make shmups so enjoyable.

For example, let's take "2D = Old school". The decision for shmups to stay 2D is, I think, a design decision. There is no point in adding the 3rd dimension to shmups IMHO. 3D provides a sense of emersion into a virtual world via freedom of exploration; shumps aren't about that at all. Shmups are about exciting gameplay against a game that's really trying to kill you. It's for the same reason why you would ride a roller coaster; it's over quickly, but it tries to give you a good exciting ride meanwhile. In short, shmups staying 2D make dodging tight, and provides a better experience. What's needed isn't a change in the game, but a change in the way the game is appreciated. Marketing, I think, is the key.

Cheers.

WarCheese

Belmont · Post by **Belmont** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:46 pm

I dont think shmups need anything to become mainstream but a little coverage. Most gamers even mainstream enjoy a challenge. Ill give you an example. My little brother is 15 years old and had a Lan party at his house a few weeks back. All of his little 15 year old friends came over and they played halflife on pc and Doa4 on the 360. So when i came over i challenged my brother to a game of twinkle star sprites, wich his friends promptly started to laugh and make fun of. However, after they watched us play for a short time i heard something i didnt exspect..... "dood, I play winner" And sure enough we had a line of 15 kids lined up taking turns getting SPANKED but still having fun and apreciating a GOOD game. Now i know twinkle star sprites isnt a true shmup but that opened the gateway to ESP Re.De

What im trying to say is gamers be they mainstream or not like what they like only because they dont know any better. When presented with a better option even a Doa lovin World of Warcraft playing Gran Theft Auto owning 15 year old will choose whatever is fun.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:00 pm

Belmont wrote:I dont think shmups need anything to become mainstream but a little coverage. Most gamers even mainstream enjoy a challenge. Ill give you an example. My little brother is 15 years old and had a Lan party at his house a few weeks back. All of his little 15 year old friends came over and they played halflife on pc and Doa4 on the 360. So when i came over i challenged my brother to a game of twinkle star sprites, wich his friends promptly started to laugh and make fun of. However, after they watched us play for a short time i heard something i didnt exspect..... "dood, I play winner" And sure enough we had a line of 15 kids lined up taking turns getting SPANKED but still having fun and apreciating a GOOD game. Now i know twinkle star sprites isnt a true shmup but that opened the gateway to ESP Re.De

Well, this specific situation isn't limited to shmups. One time when a buddy and I were playing Sekyuu Oh, he had his younger brother plus a couple of said brother's friends visiting.

They all laughed and poked fun at the game until my buddy and I handed over the controllers to let them play. They ended up playing for 3 hours straight.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:04 pm

Belmont wrote:I dont think shmups need anything to become mainstream but a little coverage. Most gamers even mainstream enjoy a challenge. Ill give you an example. My little brother is 15 years old and had a Lan party at his house a few weeks back. All of his little 15 year old friends came over and they played halflife on pc and Doa4 on the 360. So when i came over i challenged my brother to a game of twinkle star sprites, wich his friends promptly started to laugh and make fun of. However, after they watched us play for a short time i heard something i didnt exspect..... "dood, I play winner" And sure enough we had a line of 15 kids lined up taking turns getting SPANKED but still having fun and apreciating a GOOD game. Now i know twinkle star sprites isnt a true shmup but that opened the gateway to ESP Re.De What im trying to say is gamers be they mainstream or not like what they like only because they dont know any better. When presented with a better option even a Doa lovin World of Warcraft playing Gran Theft Auto owning 15 year old will choose whatever is fun.

You're right. The problem is getting them to try it the first time. I'll use Geometry Wars as an example. It was offered as a minigame in all of the PGR games before presented on XBLA. People got to play it next to their other game before paying $5 on XBLA for it.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:00 pm

I was playing Homura the other day and I realized what they should do. Homura 2 on the 360 or PS3, with sick, crazy silly 3d graphics, move the camera in more so you can actually see detail in the graphics, and put in a checkpoint system that puts you at the beginning of the stage when you continue. Also, crazy sick, insane blood... crazy RED blood sprays everywhere!

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:05 pm

GateofThunderforceIII wrote:pixelcorps, THANK YOU!!! I agree 1000%!!! I've always felt this way about mainstreamers ever since the Saturn days. I really don't see a positive outcome of shooters becoming mainstream unless I would want to see EA develop and publish Fiddy Cent Bust a Cap in Yo' Ass, or John Madden Shooting Football, which I wouldn't.

I'd rather see the genre die rather than be mocked by shooter developer wanna be's from the West just to appeal to sports and GTA loving lamers. Or see Japanese developers waste their talents and resources by trying to appeal to them any more.

(Although Sigma Star Saga was a nice twist.)

thanks, I did the 1st level graphics for SSS

These games are all the more better for their utterly blinkered marketing towards the niche group they're sold to, their very look, styling and content is geared to the hardcore gaming otaku 100%.

Most mainstream devco's wouldn't have a hope in hell of even coming close to emulating any of the genre's best, because the people that greenlight game projects simply do not understand what STG's are about ,nor the culture surrounding it - to put it simply, you have to be involved in the culture to 'get it'.

there's not many game genres that are made by companies that specialise in 1 genre and hone it to a razor sharp edge, and i'm glad, because there's still just enough of us to keep the genre alive.

There's always gonna be shooters, as long as there's love for the genre , be it commercial or not.. and personally, i'm utterly grateful the genre is alive and able to evolve without interference.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:11 am

I'm growing my kid up on all of the games I'm playing now. He'll be a prodigy.

To tell you the truth, I think it's possible to make shmups mainstream again, but it would be hard, nobody would want to do it, and nobody here would want it done. It would take an intense blend of marketing, game design, watering-down of what the genre consists of and lastly, an assload of money that only the most fanatic developer would even think of spending.

thenoble1 · Post by **thenoble1** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:22 am

The only thing it needs is crazy marketing, as far as I am concerned. Not that anyone here can get out said crazy marketing (as far as I know). The American society is based on "Buy whats on the TV." Thats why infomercials are still around

.

Galdur · Post by **Galdur** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:50 am

Shmups will never appeal to the mainstream audience because there is no new content in the games to be discovered past the initial 30-or-so minute credit-feeding session (assuming freeplay is unlocked). People want to get a fair amount of play-time out of their games, and in order to do that with shmups the player needs to -- let's be honest -- work for it, which most people just aren't going to be willing to do. I believe this is the real issue at hand. People might enjoy the gameplay of shmups but the thought of extending the life of the game by repeating the same task over and over with diligence does not carry any appeal. People aren't ready to associate work with videogames.

See also fighting games for an example of this. There's a reason these two genres are thought to be either languishing or dead.

thenoble1 · Post by **thenoble1** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:36 am

What we need is a hybrid genre. Like shmup/rpg. Or shmup/(shudder)fps. Or online shmups. Something to that tune.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:42 am

That's what I meant by watering down what a shmup truly is. You can't keep it the same and sell it. Unfortunately that would make most of us stop playing.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:22 am

you can sell the competition aspect

it worked for fighting games and racing games

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:44 am

Twiddle wrote:you can sell the competition aspect

it worked for fighting games and racing games

That's a bit hard to do when you're not going against someone directly and instead doing score competition. not many people are THAT diligent.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:45 am

score competition is alive and well, check out XBLA

Post by **Icarus** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:46 am

Gungriffon Geona wrote:That's a bit hard to do when you're not going against someone directly and instead doing score competition. not many people are THAT diligent.

That's what netranking is for. Gradius 5 and Ikaruga have had good press over in the West because of their netranking, and have brought more players in. Netranking is quite popular in Japan too, with most if not all new shootemups having a password-based netranking feature.

Give people an incentive to compete and they usually will.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:49 am

hmm, point taken.