Ways to make shmups appeal to mainstreamers again

[Atomic]

What would it take for shmups to be popular to the mainstream gaming public (MGP for short)?

easy.. make it "urban," add various nameless rappers, and shitty control.. oh and give the chromed out ship an AK47 with unlimited ammo and a crooked hat with the tags still hanging off of it. for example:

Lil' Pookie in Shoo' dem muthafukaz 2 deff (4U2NV69)


that would be sure to appeal to the suburban masses.

[Blade]

Near as I can see, R-Type Final did this ala the Weather Pattern Boss creature and the ship unlocks.

Like you had to play stage 3 with Crossing the Rubicon in order to get to the hidden Bydo Forest stage (with Cerberus et al).

I like the idea of stage unlocking, actually. And with a little substance and bulk to it...it might add depth that shmups don't always get to see.

I know Psyvariar gave you the option of choosing stages to take on and revealed harder stages/bosses the more you buzzed.

Also, I have this thought about the idea of combining elements from the Boardgame classic "Battleship" with shmups...like having a player design his own fleet of enemies to pit up against a single ship...nothing too complicated, kinda like the Gummi Parts system in Kingdom Hearts 2 or something.

I mean, just having the option of throwing all myriad of enemies at a friend to blow away just seems too good to pass up.

[Rob]

Near as I can see, R-Type Final did this

Made "shmups appeal to mainstreamers again?" The irony, I mean, it's R-Type Final. It didn't do anything but end a (once) popular series. Unlockables does not mean it appeals to everybody. It's still an average shooter with ships only fans care about.

Psyvariar

No.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

If we could somehow convice the powers that be to create a zelda, mario, final fantasy, and madden shmup, we'd be on the way to reviving shmups.

[dave4shmups]

At this point, I don't think it would take much. Look at how many people wet themselves over games like Geometry Wars, and the Mutant Storm games. Even if these aren't shumps, they're pretty darn close, and they are all in 2D. So, IMO, now would be a great time to see more console shmup releases.

[Pirate1019]

Never gonna be mainstream again.

But if I was to try I would:

Make the first 2 levels a cake-walk to lull them into a false sense of security and then BAM! Up the difficulty to ultra-rip-your-balls-off hard and try to make somebody cry.

I wouldn't want them to be mainstream anymore. At least not to the extent of FPS games. Then sites like this would be flooding with people I don't like. That's not cool. Would be nice if they got a little more attention so that more shmups came out every year...

[Specineff]

Just create a shmup featuring 50 Cent, Eminem, and lots of rappers shooting down terrorists and rescuing buncha b1tches and h03s. That's sure to get Johnny Mainstreamer's attention.

EDIT: Atomic beat me to the punch.

[Atomic]

Never gonna be mainstream again.

But if I was to try I would:

Make the first 2 levels a cake-walk to lull them into a false sense of security and then BAM! Up the difficulty to ultra-rip-your-balls-off hard and try to make somebody cry.

I wouldn't want them to be mainstream anymore. At least not to the extent of FPS games. Then sites like this would be flooding with people I don't like. That's not cool.

Would be nice if they got a little more attention so that more shmups came out every year...

i agree with this. someone just brought up geometry wars.. and they have a good point. i think people dig the whole thing about a shmup being a relatively simple concept wrapped around a challenging and (usually) fun and addictive shell.

i think a good shmup with an ad campaign behind it that rivals most mainstream games out now it would be a solid hit. i mean think about it... if you werent a shmup fan, would you really know about xyanide?

i think that game is a great example because it is mainstream gamer compatible.. it has a fast learning curve, simple concept, and replayability.. all released on a system everyone has. yet, no one outside of the shmup community really knows what it is.

[Pirate1019]

i agree with this. someone just brought up geometry wars.. and they have a good point. i think people dig the whole thing about a shmup being a relatively simple concept wrapped around a challenging and (usually) fun and addictive shell.

Well...except the people who like to have their victories handed to them on a silver platter. That happens to be almost everyone. Hell, my friends like shmups...until they get tired of losing, and then they just play my copy of Need for Speed: Most Wanted. Granted, it's no cakewalk, but it is leaps and bounds easier then most shmups.

[Atomic]

i agree with this. someone just brought up geometry wars.. and they have a good point. i think people dig the whole thing about a shmup being a relatively simple concept wrapped around a challenging and (usually) fun and addictive shell.

Well...except the people who like to have their victories handed to them on a silver platter. That happens to be almost everyone. Hell, my friends like shmups...until they get tired of losing, and then they just play my copy of Need for Speed: Most Wanted. Granted, it's no cakewalk, but it is leaps and bounds easier then most shmups.

you've got a pernt.

maybe most people are just too spoiled for shmups now a days.
youd think with all the people playing driving games now there would be more people who could actually drive worth a shit.

[dai jou bu]

Geometry Wars is a good start.

Edit: Oh wait, that was mentioned already.

[shinsage]

Lots of unlockables. Mainstreamers love unlockables.

Add a complex storyline. They'll play anything with long cutscences in it. (Real gamers can skip them, however).

lmfao, it's like racism for gamers.
Hardcore gamers don't like stories, black people eat watermelon, etc.

To answer the question, to market a shmup towards a mass audience would most likely have an end result which none of us would like.

[Frederik]

Well, seing how successful games like Geometry Wars are, I don`t see why shmups couldn`t be more popular again. First XBLA, and then the upcoming wii game service - I guess 2D gaming will reclaim some ground.

I guess if you want shmups to be more popular again you have to take other 2D action genres as well. I found my way to shmups by playing Contra 3 on an emulator and though "there must be other good 1-shot-1-death games". Nobody wakes up and goes like "Whoa, today I`ll set aside my San Andreas and stop playing WoW and try my hands on some japanese hardcore shmup instead". It not so much the shmupping itself, its both the bias against 2D and the shifted expectations towards games that makes shmups a niche genre these days.

[ahnslaught]

Lower the price to Castle Shikigami 2 levels. I think shmups are seen as a genre with little replayability/substance, so if you lower the price (like Geometry Wars), it should make it seem like a good deal to everyone.

[KBZ]

people are stupid when it comes to games. If they can't beat it mindlessly, or it in somewhat conveys a suggestion that they are not good at the game, they'll get extremely defensive and start shouting out claims about how terrible the game is, and never play it.

I have friends who'll love to woop my ass at halo, but wont even go near any fighter or shmup saying it sucks, but they really just can't take losing.

[Pirate1019]

people are stupid when it comes to games. If they can't beat it mindlessly, or it in somewhat conveys a suggestion that they are not good at the game, they'll get extremely defensive and start shouting out claims about how terrible the game is, and never play it.

I have friends who'll love to woop my ass at halo, but wont even go near any fighter or shmup saying it sucks, but they really just can't take losing.

Hey, it happens. The world is a competitive place nowadays. People want something they can beat. It makes them feel good.

Besides, maybe they just honestly don't like shmups. It's a possibility. I suck at sports games, but that isn't the reason I hate them. I believe that you should get off your ass and play real football instead of the same Madden game every year repackaged with some upgraded stats.

[Twiddle]

if there's any credit limit (even 9!!!), shmups are nearly impossibly hard games because the games make more than just an actual effort to kill you
if there's free play, shmups are "too easy" because they last half an hour

simply put, for single player games, the major interest is in games that take too long and are really too easy. see: okami, half-life 2

we've said something about trying to attract people to the competitive nature of difficult arcade games a couple or so pages back.

[Rob]

Covering the retarded unlockables thing again, make the unlockables encourage the player to play the game how it was intended and not just putting in time. That is, get 1,000,000 points on stage 1, get replay of stage 1 (let's say it shows how to get 500,000 more points). Mars Matrix had this all wrong. People would just play single stages (in elite mode?) over and over to unlock stuff, and had no ability to get a decent score in arcade mode. The arranged mode should've been the big ticket unlockable, instead of background graphics.

[Pirate1019]

Covering the retarded unlockables thing again, make the unlockables encourage the player to play the game how it was intended and not just putting in time. That is, get 1,000,000 points on stage 1, get replay of stage 1 (let's say it shows how to get 500,000 more points). Mars Matrix had this all wrong. People would just play single stages (in elite mode?) over and over to unlock stuff, and had no ability to get a decent score in arcade mode. The arranged mode should've been the big ticket unlockable, instead of background graphics.

True. I'm not an expert on shmups, or videogames for that matter...but when I unlock stuff just by playing so many hours (Ikaruga for GC) it is really disapointing. I unlocked the art galleries for playing for 5 hours. Playing 7 hours I unlock the free play, I get unlimited credits for playing a measley 7 hours. You can't turn it off either. They essentially let you 'credit feed' (or the equivelant of) through the whole game by simply playing 7 hours.

[Gungriffon Geona]

Lots of unlockables. Mainstreamers love unlockables.

Add a complex storyline. They'll play anything with long cutscences in it. (Real gamers can skip them, however).

lmfao, it's like racism for gamers.
Hardcore gamers don't like stories, black people eat watermelon, etc.

To answer the question, to market a shmup towards a mass audience would most likely have an end result which none of us would like.

That all depends on how it's done. you CAN blend story, graphics, retardism and addictive score mechanics into one game if you were diligent with the idea enough to make sure it can fit. Hell, you actually could make a shmup with a bunch of oversized "real" weapons and "pimped out" gold plated bosses. Buy and sell "armor" which consists of "rims" and "bling shielding", or even retarded crap like "money cannons" and "gats".
if anything it would be funny at best.
Or you could just stick fifty million internet fads into a game and call it "Yarodius Channel Dogrider: Featuring 4Chan Allstars." The popularity of a huge running gag would be astounding.

[elvis]

I say again, do we want them to appeal to the mainstream? As far as I'm concerned, anything the mainstream touches becomes entirely pedestrian and bland, as the average gamer can't be arsed putting effort or thought into anything. Hard games are typically rejected by the mainstream, and for me personally, I really like difficult games.

But anyways... the answer is in the question. Look at the games that have had mainstream success - people are talking Geometry Wars as a good example. It's an American-made game designed for an American audience, with no language or cultural barriers that would otherwise be seen as cringe-worthy by your average American teen gamer. Rinse and repeat that formula, and you would see mainstream success.

But again I ask: would you all really want that?

All these Japanese-made titles never see the light of day in the west, often because publishers think they are "too Japanese". This has been going on for decades. Nothing new there.

So to put forward a proposal for mainstream success:
1) Make shmups easy
2) Remove all reference to anything non-American in either cultural reference or artistic style.

And you're done. Boring, bland, simplistic and utterly mainstream. I can hear the cash registers now!

[Pirate1019]

I still say we go with the 'easy first level and then we stick their dicks in a guillotine if they die' approach. It would be funny.

I say (again) that having shmups in the mainstream would suck. A little more exposure to get the games coming again would be nice, but nothing huge.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Hmm I'm just sick of the RETRO trend. Dammit geometry wars is not retro. I'm sick of "RETRO" games with heavy particle effects and blurry raster graphics that have been smudged and blurred to hell because some sh** artist had a copy of photoshop. I'm sick of photoshopped graphics, give me FIVE colors per sprite and 2 hours in MS Paint I'll still outdue any fake "RETRO" sprite made in photoshop. I have many hours of sprite making, all my games are free in a very feeble attempt to give the shmup community something to chew on.

Here is my gallery images my not be used without my concent.
http://www.pixeljoint.com/p/2109.htm?pg=1&sec=icons


With that being said, I wish the shmup would be more popular but, I'm afraid of the drop in quality.It's hard as hell trying to find a good shmup in English, there are only so many classics. I guess I just want more classic styled games but this is a thing of the past I fear. I love 3D shmups too, but even those are too few and far between. This is going to spund raciest but I prefer Japanese shmups because the art is so good usually. (I'll spend an hour in MS Paint doing a 32x32 sprite in photoshop with 5 colors)

I would like to see revived interest in shmups but I don't think people would "get it". I think the main problem is that you have to start from the befginning each time. People don't want to work through a game each time they pick it up. I think you could have fun unlockables IF you get to certin scores.

[Pirate1019]

You would think that people would like shmups since they can be picked up and played for 15 minutes and fully enjoyed. You cannot do that with an rpg. I have to have at least an hour to put into an rpg at a time, or it isn't fun. People say they are too busy to play games, but you just need to play the right ones.

[Iori Branford]

Given the current "realism" trend, I think one way that shouldn't be too hard on the hardcore is to keep the visual style somewhat gritty and grounded in reality. In other words, something like the old PC shmup Raptor, or an overhead Ace Combat. You have your lasers and your futuristic ship designs, sure, but it all looks and sounds pretty close to how most people would expect flying around and blowing shit up to look and sound. And yes, I am for a longer game with saving between levels and I can't think of a single thing wrong with them, at least when they're together.

[Gungriffon Geona]

Given the current "realism" trend, I think one way that shouldn't be too hard on the hardcore is to keep the visual style somewhat gritty and grounded in reality. In other words, something like the old PC shmup Raptor, or an overhead Ace Combat. You have your lasers and your futuristic ship designs, sure, but it all looks and sounds pretty close to how most people would expect flying around and blowing shit up to look and sound. And yes, I am for a longer game with saving between levels and I can't think of a single thing wrong with them, at least when they're together.

Raptor is my idea of a perfect blend of realism and scifi. I think that if someone were to build gritty shooters like it then there would be a big boom in mainstream popularity. what's more, it's not that comprimising to the genre to go like that. It even works very well too. (It's one of my favorite shooters to play honestly.)

[Xargon]

I don't know if it's mentioned here already, Xbox Live Arcade. Seriously. By that way some mainstream gamers would at least notice them and get known of genre called shoot 'em ups. I really think that some shmups could make some kind of success. But I'm even by myself little prejuiced for that idea. Shmups are games, not any... damn minigames that live arcade is full of.

And yes, I know I'm having slightly different perspective compared to the other suggestions.

[Acid King]

So I'm playing Burnout Revenge and thinking it would work so well with a shooting game. People love Burnout, I love Burnout. Everyone loves Burnout! People like smaller skill-based challenges.

You've got about 10 sections, in each there are a handful of 2-5 minute tasks. Think about it:

Different modes could be boss endurance (time = medals), various score based activities in a normal stage (maybe like a 1.5 minute section... divide stage into 2 parts), "grand prix" = string these things together into a complete stage. (More imaginative challenges would also be used!) Now have these goals for every stage, with score charts for everything.

Let's give this game 9 stages. The special 10th could be all stages strung together for more traditional players. These would have to be unlocked in a similar way as in Burnout.

I'd want that so bad. What I think is great about it: it doesn't abandon skill-based gameplay. That is the focus, and specifically stated. And it would have a lot of gameplay variety. The developer could reuse a stage for more gameplay than just a 20 minute play through with two tasks in mind (survival/score).

Good call.

I say again, do we want them to appeal to the mainstream? As far as I'm concerned, anything the mainstream touches becomes entirely pedestrian and bland, as the average gamer can't be arsed putting effort or thought into anything. Hard games are typically rejected by the mainstream, and for me personally, I really like difficult games.

Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry say otherwise. Hard is fine. Hard to the point of being broken is not. Personally, I wouldn't mind it if they became more popular. You would have more developers, more variety in the gameplay, more people competing for score and more good shooters. Quality over quanitity is the mantra that made the N64 such a half assed console. As for the removal of Japanese cultural references for the "average teen" American gamer, I don't know if you know it or not, but the majority of gamers in America are OVER 18. Not to mention that Bizarre Creations is a British company, not American....

I don't know if it's mentioned here already, Xbox Live Arcade. Seriously. By that way some mainstream gamers would at least notice them and get known of genre called shoot 'em ups. I really think that some shmups could make some kind of success. But I'm even by myself little prejuiced for that idea. Shmups are games, not any... damn minigames that live arcade is full of.

I agree. I'd like to see Cave release their back catalogue through XBLA.

[Pirate1019]

I don't know if it's mentioned here already, Xbox Live Arcade. Seriously. By that way some mainstream gamers would at least notice them and get known of genre called shoot 'em ups. I really think that some shmups could make some kind of success. But I'm even by myself little prejuiced for that idea. Shmups are games, not any... damn minigames that live arcade is full of.

And yes, I know I'm having slightly different perspective compared to the other suggestions.

Sounds nice, but I remember reading an article in Game Informer about how XBLA might not be all it's cracked up to be indie game-wise. If it ends up like they mentioned it might then I can't see why it wouldn't happen to a genre of games that people seem to not like to play anymore.

Mind you this is all coming from a person with limited experience with XBL and no experience with XBLA.

EDIT: It was Game Informer, not EGM.

[pixelcorps]

screw the mainstream.

these games have gotten more and more perfect thanks to them not participating.

they don't deserve them, close thread.