STGT 2k6- Week #5 Poll (Hidden Gem Week)

[Rob]

I think a better idea for weeks would be to lump similar games, as opposed to lumping games that have nothing much in common despite "side-scrolling" (HOLY!) and such. That way people don't just pick the game that's old school, hyper-technical or whatever suits their niche taste every week. Like, it would've been a real crying shame if Gunbird 1 was picked for Psikyo week for its painful old school lack of everything.

In fact, I think having a poll is a bad idea. It's interesting in that it starts a little conversation, but that's about it. I think the themes should be voted on, games predecided and the theme/game not announced until the playing week starts, to prevent people from getting too far ahead.

Etc.!

[oxtsu]

[Icarus]

Never saw it, so those were still ideas I thought of.

What planet were you on when they happened?

[Nemo]

Never saw it, so those were still ideas I thought of.

What planet were you on when they happened?

Real life.

[Icarus]

Real life.

My condolences to you. m(_ _)m

[Rob]

Never saw it, so those were still ideas I thought of.

What planet were you on when they happened?

You just wanted us to look at these charts.

[Icarus]

People have been referring to Ramus's tournament since GEMANT announced the initial challenge. Before that, actually, with Edge and big_aug (I think) considering starting up another one.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=10001

Whatever. （￣～￣;）

[Zigfried the Trizealot]

My unasked-for cents, for future consideration or non-consideration:

1) I agree with Rob that game-specific polls are a bad idea. Voting on and asking for opinions on themes is a good idea, but the specific games should be handed down as law by whoever is running the tournament. That way, the tourney-master is only listing games that he/she personally knows are appropriate for a score-based tournament.

2) I agree with Nemo that this MAME-centric stuff sucks. I don't like the idea of having to break the law and visit spyware-infested sites to support my team. But how about a compromise: if people are expected to use MAME, then whoever is running the tournament should personally host and link to the ROM to make it easy for people to download and play. That way, the moral risk isn't all on the player's shoulders. It's on the tournament and the site that encourages the tournament, too.

//Zig

[Rob]

Part of the idea I had of deciding on games beforehand is so people who object to emulation have a chance to pick them up before the week. Another decent compromise.

Also, the person organizing the game selection can just pick a Raizing/Psikyo/Cave game (as an example) even though these devs have already been covered in the tournament, to guarantee something relatively popular that hasn't been selected. Polling on these types of games repeatedly would get redundant after a few competitions.

[CIT]

And I think you'd be a little bit Cranky Kong too if your team was in second place and you weren't able to help them

No, although I would probably be Cranky Kong if my team was second and there was no way in the world we could still make first place.

[Rob]

No, although I would probably be Cranky Kong if my team was second and there was no way in the world we could still make first place.

I'm sure Nemo would like to see Turbo Associ... er FEKA do as good as we can anyways. First is overrated. Just ask namakoteam and they'll tell you they aren't good.

[Twiddle]

itt edge hopes i get out of practice for raiden fighters next year so he can put seibu week in

[Icarus]

I'm sure Nemo would like to see Turbo Associ... er FEKA do as good as we can anyways. First is overrated. Just ask namakoteam and they'll tell you they aren't good.

We know we aren't that good.
And if we aren't that good, and holding first place with a 191 points difference between us and second, that means you suck. ^_-
goback2 /2ndplace/ --->
</trashtalk>

[Rob]

We know we aren't that good.
And if we aren't that good, and holding first place with a 191 points difference between us and second, that means you suck. ^_-
goback2 /2ndplace/ --->
</trashtalk>

I better u.

[Edge]

No offense, this isn't the Shooting Game Tournament 2006, this is Edge's Shmup Meet. So be it.

Offcourse I organize the tournament, so I'll make the decissions. It's as simple as that. I'll try to stay as objective as possible and take your suggestions into consideration. But it is unavoidable that people have different opinions. Though you seem to me far too attached to "your" own personal preferences or moreso the resulting circumstances for you and your team and not really the whole tournament at all. I think suggesting Giga Wing or Mars Matrix for Hidden Gem Week was a pretty objective solution in the favor of "all participating teams". Because, you know, Feka USA have to defend the second place...

And I really don't know what you want to get changed on the whole formula? No polls at all? I choose the game and everyone plays it, sounds more like Edge's shmup meet. And would result in waaaayyy more drama. Oh i forgot, only Nemo could be capable of choosing the right game for everyone as he "knows" better than us. And I did explain why we shouldn't change the weeks theme, the same goes for most other points. And i am getting tired of discussing this over and over again.

Hmm... Let's try it like this:
Well, if you are in a soccer team and go to the world cup you simply have to get along with the rules as they are there. You are participating as a player not as the organizer. It's a similiar situation here. I am interested to get your feedback and thoughts to see your concerns and come up with a better solution than relying only on my judgement. But, I organize it, so I make the decissions. Actually it is also some work to organize all that and instead of moaning you should be happy we finally have a tournament going on here. If you have some "constructive" ideas I am always open to discuss several ideas and possible solutions. Though I'd like to ask you (everyone) to stop trolling and bitching, thanks.

[Icarus]

I better u.

Suuuuuuuuuuure, Mr. 2nd-in-the-Individual-Rankings.

You'll be staying there until the end of the tournament. ^_-

Unless you completely screw up the Hidden Gems and Cave Weeks, in which case you'll be replaced by one of my team mates. ^_-

Lets see if you have the skill to back up your talk.

[Rob]

Nemo made Edge mad again. Dammit, Nemo, I bet he's going to cancel Cave week and make it Takumi week to punish us all.

[Twiddle]

Comedy vote for Twin Cobra 2!

[Rob]

Lets see if you have the skill to back up your talk.

If I play Air Gallet at all this week I'll be surprised. I'm burned out on shooters. Anyways, you're scaring me with this tough competition talk.

[Nemo]

I'm sure Nemo would like to see Turbo Associ... er FEKA do as good as we can anyways. First is overrated. Just ask namakoteam and they'll tell you they aren't good.

We know we aren't that good.
And if we aren't that good, and holding first place with a 191 points difference between us and second, that means you suck. ^_-
goback2 /2ndplace/ --->
</trashtalk>

I know I'm crap, but it's silly to honk your own horn. All your team has is preparation and organization. Your players play every week and are focused on the tournament. Our team was thrown together at the least minute just so we could participate. Two of our players haven't even played, and counting the Star Force week, I haven't been able to play in 3 out of 6 weeks. And outside of Rob and myself, the other players on our team have priorities more important than shmupping. So all things consider, we're not doing asstronomically bad.

[Twiddle]

2) I agree with Nemo that this MAME-centric stuff sucks. I don't like the idea of having to break the law and visit spyware-infested sites to support my team.

pcbs and cabs come out of trees

[Rob]

Between the gobs of money. Zigfried has a few of those trees, I think.

[Nemo]

2) I agree with Nemo that this MAME-centric stuff sucks. I don't like the idea of having to break the law and visit spyware-infested sites to support my team.

pcbs and cabs come out of trees

MAME should be the "just in case", not the "have to". I'm sure most people that use MAME would rather play on their TVs. I already suggested a simple solution, pick games that are available for a console and MAME. Sure everyone won't have every game, but you're at least not completely eliminating this demographic by choosing obscuro arcade games.

[DJ Incompetent]

*sigh*...I just haaad to shoot my mouth off...aaaaagain. Alright. I started this...sounds like the honorable thing to do is ta finish it huh..

Oh yeah, did anybody give ya the "OMG I'm protesting everything cuz of da selection" PM? Did we in-fact pull this off with minor hostilities?

I for one am boycotting this week due to this being completely ignored:

3. Not so much in developer weeks like Cave and Raizing, but in the other weeks I would make sure the game is available in MAME and has a home port to give the most people the opportunity to participate.

-I agree with you here. To an extent. I think for future tournaments we should work out that 1, non-mame players are made known and adjusted for team roster when assigned to team (I'll explain in full-page detail after the tourney is over) 2. A guaranteed 1 or 2 choices on every major poll always have some kind of port. 3, Edge's committee idea of week choices should follow through

I don't say all future polling choices should have ports because I have understood that there are too many arcade-only games that have great chances of swaying people to choose a mame version of something when they have a console version of something else.
With #1, #2, & #3 in place, protesters would have to bitch at the voting crowd instead of blaming everything on a tourney organizer.

You say you can't play any of these games this week. If you couldn't even use MAME, why did you want most the power to evaluate the games? You wouldn't have been able to tell anybody if there were any errors or differences in the MAME versions when it came to having the final say.

You also had the power to tell us for the giant green list on STGT page 34 which games on the general nominations had ports and which didn't. You could have researched that and contributed instead of bitching to want the power to do something you already could have done for all of us. You chose only to add passive support to Magical Chase. I moved the name up a few notches at the time. You contributed nothing more when it was wide open for more than a week for ya to simply research what you said you wanted to do anyway.

1. Make sure they're challenging enough that most people won't finish it and it has some semblance of a scoring system. So there aren't 50 people with clears and basically the same score.

-Nobody knows exactly what will happen with this game in a single week. Since Edge doesn't write down exactly how far he can casually get in a shooter before he decides what is challenging enough (along with the rest of his procedures, nor should he need to as he has a resume), we're relying on his proven judgment. Fine, he sucked it up with Retro Week but he made his case to why it sucked with a single post. I felt that reason was preventable while staying within our time constraints. As this week was being addressed as "Retro Week 2," I set out to prevent the problem.
-Anybody who said a game was too easy had their claims honored.
-4 of the 5 games on this week's poll have a semblance of a scoring system. It's also more than fair to ensure 1 of 5 doesn't as some like those better.
-I have seen THREE "ALLs" on scores in the entire tournament

Edge is 4-for-4 (yes! Even Star Force) in putting us in the position to letting this happen. And ya still think he's unfit for the job. I think that's proof enough he's good enough to handle week 5...and 6...and next year...

We won't know for sure if you're right on this week for this point until it ends.

In the meantime, tell me. What number of people or percentage of people with an All Clear is really considered "too many?"

2. Make sure the games are actually enjoyable by most people, if people are going to be playing the same game over and over that shouldn't be a dreadful experience. (ex: no games with really long levels or games with only one or two parts in the game that account for a good score)

As for your bold text, say we placed a whole group of people in Edge's position this week and they would decide on their own as well, like you did. I think every single person would have come up with their own unique list of 5 picks. And every one of them would think they were right. Edge's picks would be no more better than the next guy's as 84 people want different choices, but everybody does want to just get on with the playing. I think we stuck with Edge because I feel he has proven to be neutral with his choices. And he's reliable, stable, and has near-infinite fucking patience given what he's doing that doesn't get appreciated enough. All that includes a majority of the forum believing in him and his good success rate in running this kind of thing.

So far, only you, sven666, and Galdur showed any real negative response to the entire poll. 1-(3 poll knocks/40 votes) = 92.5% neutral-positive response. Considering nobody should ever expect 100% happiness out of any week from a sample size this big, that stat ain't bad.

How about after the scoring thread concludes this week, you yourself fill in these blanks: 1-(___ total chosen game and poll unique player negative responses / ___ total participating members on the score thread) = __._% neutral-positive response

After you calculate that final number, if that final percentage is still unsatisfactory to you, call me back and we'll waltz the good argument for as long as we don't stalemate somewhere.

No offense, this isn't the Shooting Game Tournament 2006, this is Edge's Shmup Meet. So be it.

Until you get me that final percentage and we see if your prediction #1 comes true, Hidden Gem Week has a scoring system, is neutral and enjoyable by most people, and the rest is in good standing for the most part.

For now I feel my efforts were useful. For now I feel 92.5% is enough to say Edge's efforts were successful. STGT, represent.

But we'll find out Monday, won't we..

All of us here should be able to address all the final kinks after this tourney ends in time for next year. I think everybody isn't doing bad considering we've been "winging it" the entire time, yes? A good test tourney that we can learn any flaws from to maybe run every year from now on, yes?

[Edge]

MAME should be the "just in case", not the "have to". I'm sure most people that use MAME would rather play on their TVs. I already suggested a simple solution, pick games that are available for a console and MAME. Sure everyone won't have every game, but you're at least not completely eliminating this demographic by choosing obscuro arcade games.

I can see your point there. But on the other hand I think it doesn't make THAT much of a difference if a game is ported or not. Most players would probably still play on MAME. An example to me is the Dragon Blaze Week. We have a ported game here, still the majority of scores where made on MAME. Which will probably be always the case, because people do not own all possible games. I will try to get more ported games in the polls, but sometimes it is not easy to do so. As for Hidden Gem Week, it was suppossed to set most players into unknown terrain leading to "weird" arcade games. Which gives everyone even chances in this one, and also gives a left gem the possibility to shine and get some new fans. But I will try to get ported games on most polls, though I think with "only" ported games we would limit ourselves in the game choices even more. As a game had to meet both criteria: Offering a port and availability via emulation to guarantee access for all players. That's how I see it so far, you may try to convince me from the opposite with "constructive" reasons.

[Icarus]

I know I'm crap, but it's silly to honk your own horn. All your team has is preparation and organization. Your players play every week and are focused on the tournament. Our team was thrown together at the least minute just so we could participate. Two of our players haven't even played, and counting the Star Force week, I haven't been able to play in 3 out of 6 weeks. And outside of Rob and myself, the other players on our team have priorities more important than shmupping. So all things consider, we're not doing asstronomically bad.

Yes, we have prep and organisation, We have other things to do as well. All of us work in jobs and/or have study commitments. I personally can't do many weekends as my job takes over, and my design studies tie up my evenings, meaning I only get two or three hours a night after midnight to play, if I'm awake enough to bother.

But we still make time to take part, with no complaints. Well, besides what the rest of the participants are voting in for each week. （￣ー￣）

So I'm just replying to the people that say we are "overrated" when our collective results show anything but. (^_-)

I can understand your concerns vis-a-vis game selection and so on, but its someone else's tournament, and its organised the way he sees necessary. Edge could have been doing all manner of other things, but has taken the time to organise this tournament for people to enjoy, and this constant whining is disrespectful. I think you'd be fucked off if you took the time to put together something like this, and particular people kept complaining, bitching, moaning and trolling about this and that, instead of offering constructive criticism and ideas to consider later on.

So go ahead and boycott if it makes you feel better. I think your team needs you this week however, since GP isn't playing, TWE preferred to step out of the tournament to play on Espgaluda 2 and Ibara, and the rest of your teammates might not be able to put together the results to hold their position. Especially with Sweden and Old-Schoolers giving it their all.

And in the end, thats all it boils down to: putting aside personal differences and opinions, and making time to play for the team.

[Rob]

lol @ Nemo's "boycott" i.e. I have not and will not download MAME EVER. I'm sure he must have a good reason.

since GP isn't playing, TWE preferred to step out of the tournament to play on Espgaluda 2 and Ibara

Someone needs to tell them it's time to pick up the slack or send some replacement players our way. I hear there's some Cave connection with Air Gallet. Use that.

[The Coop]

You know, if I didn't already know that this tournament was supposed to be for fun, I would have never guessed it after reading this thread.

[Icarus]

Someone needs to tell them it's time to pick up the slack or send some replacement players our way. I hear there's some Cave connection with Air Gallet. Use that.

Hey, they are your teammates, not mine. You do it. ^_-
The only connection Gallet has to Cave is the former Toaplan developers who formed Gazelle.

[Rob]

The only connection Gallet has to Cave is the former Toaplan developers who formed Gazelle.

Wow, it's practically a Cave game! Someone inform twe and GP!