All the crappy PS2 shooters (or we hate R-Type Final thread)

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:02 pm

Rob wrote:Marking Progear as the end of their peak is more than a little odd (Cave says "failed experiment," and I agree with them). DOJ, their basic formula perfected enough to where it's enjoyable to ignore the bad scoring system. Ketsui. I've never played it, but helicopters - for that alone it's better than Progear.

Tsk.

Daioujou - rehash of DDP with added Hypers
Ketsui - generic military setting with a cross between DP burst chaining and Esprade item-based multipliers
Espgaluda - combination of Guwange enemy-based bullet nulling and Esprade, with ON/OFF system switch
Mushi - bugs. whohooo. with added piano playing similar to coin-milking in Guwange, only more convoluted.
Ibara - nice game, tries too hard to be Garegga. also suffers from many Caveisms.
Pink Sweets - haven't played yet, but looks like Recca. also nothing like anything Cave have put out (and is probably hated for it).
Espgaluda 2 - Espgaluda with added jazz.
Mushi Futari - more bugs, mixed with Espgaluda. someone called it Mushiluda I believe. the up-down jewel system reminds me of something. oh yeah! Ketsui's multipliers.

Cave later games are nice, but heck, Cave were at the most creative with the four games before Daioujou. Characters, settings, system design, controls. Guwange was their most inventive in terms of graphics and system, and probably their best. You won't see giant cat spiders, demonic shrines and demon babies in the latest batch of Cave; they're quite happy churning out big bugs, big tanks and big aircraft now.

Progear might have been an experiment, but at least it was an attempt at something new. I doubt Cave would be willing to try a new concept like Progear was, they're too busy lining pockets, pleasing investors and cranking out sequels.

Oh, Joker Jun. Where art thou?

</offtopic>

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:20 pm

Icarus wrote: Daioujou - rehash of DDP with added Hypers

And the best patterns Cave ever made. The boss patterns especially.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:21 pm

Cave says "failed experiment," and I agree with them

I don't see how it failed and thought it was very playable, more than playable I thought it was great.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:25 pm

Cave said it, it must be true. Side-scrolling Cave-style bullet fluff hell doesn't work. I thought it was way too awkward, to say nothing of the scoring system.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:32 pm

Progear as a sidescrolling deviation on Cave's formula is a far better, more accomplished game than Sengoku Blade was to Psikyo's formula.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:42 pm

Icarus wrote:Progear as a sidescrolling deviation on Cave's formula is a far better, more accomplished game than Sengoku Blade was to Psikyo's formula.

Sol Divide is more comparable to Progear.

Post by **Icarus** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:44 pm

LOL! I forgot about Sol Divide.
Another good reason why Psikyo can't design games for spit. ^_-

mulletgeezer · Post by **mulletgeezer** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:53 pm

Rob wrote:
Icarus wrote: Daioujou - rehash of DDP with added Hypers
And the best patterns Cave ever made. The boss patterns especially.

I think Ketsui has much better patterns - those weird wobbly bullet patterns that change direction, and the mad patterns on the 4th boss that chase you around the edge of the screen? That's truly awesome patternage.

I think Progear and Guwange have maybe the best 2 scoring systems ever in shmups and the more recent cave games just don't compare. The thing about the bullet cancelling via enemy destruction method of scoring is that it really gives the player opportunities for creative play, thinking about the patterns and trying to work out a better way to play, survive and score maximally and playing well is very satisfying. For this reason i play these games without watching superplay videos too much as i find it more fun to work them out myself rather than copying a routine (unlike DDP where i mostly just read BERs guides and tried to follow the instructions), though i may have to change my policy on this if either of these games is chosen for cave week.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:10 pm

Side-scrolling Cave-style bullet fluff hell doesn't work. I thought it was way too awkward, to say nothing of the scoring system.

I've heard that said about side scrollers before but never understood it, I never had that problem. I don't see what the difference is. It's a bunch of bullets and a hit box, just on it's side. What would make that not work?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:07 am

Icky wrote:Ibara - nice game, tries too hard to be Garegga. also suffers from many Caveisms.

"Cave-isms?" Like what, visible bullets?

I also can't help but find it interesting how Cave's always grilled for "doing the same thing over and over," and when it comes out with something completely unlike its usual output, it's lambasted for "trying too hard to be someone else's game." Never mind that the same guy (especially popular to most of Cave's regular detractors, mind you) made both games...I don't know, it seems to me that for some around here no matter what Cave does it's still not acceptable.

Progear might have been an experiment, but at least it was an attempt at something new.

Experimenting is all well and good, but at this point in the history of shmup development how many ideas, in some form or another, haven't been tried yet? To narrow it down even further, how many GOOD and original ideas are left out there? More to the point, how much of a risk of this sort can a shmup developer take in today's market in the first place? The fact that most of the other major shmup developers have gone under ought to tell you something...and something tells me it told Cave something too. I don't think whatever trends have arisen in their products is the result of a lack of motivation as much as it is of circumstances.

Strider77 wrote:I've heard that said about side scrollers before but never understood it, I never had that problem. I don't see what the difference is. It's a bunch of bullets and a hit box, just on it's side. What would make that not work?

The perspective wasn't much of an issue for me either, but the stuff coming from the sides and back with zero warning (which didn't often happen in Cave's verts, for whatever reason) was. Why is it that most horizontal shooters just need to toss cheap kills like that at you?

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:01 am

BulletMagnet wrote:"Cave-isms?" Like what, visible bullets?

Caveisms: like enemies invincible within particular sections of the screen (top eighth of the screen being the most prominent, along with a ship width each side of the screen). Affects milking of Kasumi's missiles, as well as simple destruction of enemies.

I'm not complaining about it (much), as its an expected function when appliedd to Cave-based chaining games like the Pachis, but when applied to a Raizing styled game, it makes just destruction of enemies a whole lot harder than necessary.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:14 am

If you want the gospel truth I honestly never even noticed that...then again I'm not as mindful of minutiae like that in general, when it comes to shmups anyways, since I never get to the level of play where it becomes much of a factor. I'll have to keep my eyes open for it, though, just for my own interest.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:16 am

BulletMagnet wrote:If you want the gospel truth I honestly never even noticed that...then again I'm not as mindful of minutiae like that in general, when it comes to shmups anyways, since I never get to the level of play where it becomes much of a factor.

learn 2 play (more)

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:28 am

BulletMagnet wrote:If you want the gospel truth I honestly never even noticed that...then again I'm not as mindful of minutiae like that in general, when it comes to shmups anyways, since I never get to the level of play where it becomes much of a factor. I'll have to keep my eyes open for it, though, just for my own interest.

Its something Ibara players have known for ages.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 709#179709

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:51 am

Boo, Cave bullets. Invisible hitbox on bullets and ships

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:14 am

but the stuff coming from the sides and back

LOL.... I actually was kinda amused the 1st time i saw em' wash by then suck back past me in reverse.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:13 am

Twiddle wrote:learn 2 play (more)

NEVER! You sully the *koff* good name of Team Loser!

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:19 am

It'll be even more sullied once I ALL the 2-loop RF and stop doing these facial expressions:

when i die on any one of the first five stages of RF

when my credit ends on the second loop

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:23 am

Heh, I'll have to save those for our insignia next year, in case Mr. Coyote wants a vacation.