Skill

[landshark]

Welcome, Mills!
Why am I expecting to be bumped down a place in a couple of scorethreads now? ^_-

sweet.

Nah, its cool. Just gives me an incentive to work harder. ^_-

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER!

... must find Icarus and give him some cement gloves

[LUNardei]

That's for sure!

[DEL]

RE: Skill - I remember watching the Laos/TAC/NAL DOJ replay 2nd loop and realising that they were handling the bullet curtains at a faster speed than my eyes were comfortable with (at some points). This is either better inate ability or some good drugs.

[Randorama]

RE: Skill - I remember watching the Laos/TAC/NAL DOJ replay 2nd loop and realising that they were handling the bullet curtains at a faster speed than my eyes were comfortable with (at some points). This is either better inate ability or some good drugs.

Or training. In many reflex-based activities (e.g. martial arts), you can train your reflexes to be faster that your eyes (to be exact, than your "movement-detection treshold time"). Innate ability is when a given person can be extremely fast not only in reaction time but also in "correction time". If one makes a mistake when performing a routing fast activity (i.e. dodging a very fast pattern in the wrong way) and is able to correct his/her mistake, it is indeed likely that he/she has innate faster reflexes (lower threshold for reaction time).

[landshark]

Or training. In many reflex-based activities (e.g. martial arts), you can train your reflexes to be faster that your eyes (to be exact, than your "movement-detection treshold time"). Innate ability is when a given person can be extremely fast not only in reaction time but also in "correction time". If one makes a mistake when performing a routing fast activity (i.e. dodging a very fast pattern in the wrong way) and is able to correct his/her mistake, it is indeed likely that he/she has innate faster reflexes (lower threshold for reaction time).

Very true. I remember going from DDP:DOJ Black label (the boss mode, whatever it's called), back to the regular game, and all of a sudden the game's bullets seemed really slow.

Similarly with DDR.

[DEL]

Rando wrote;

Or training.

Good point! As Landshark has pointed out, when you go up to a mad rank for a while, then go back down to normal, you find that things are easier. A good example of this is perhaps Plasmo's tale of playing ULTRA for quite a while, then trying Maniac and 1CC'ing Maniac on his first credit ever. A guy once taught me this with regards to bench pressing. ie. he told me to go up to a weight that was far above my present level, just for a few reps (even assisted), then go back down. The result is that your body handles the previously unattainable weight after doing this.
So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

[Pirate1019]

Rando wrote;

Or training.

Good point! As Landshark has pointed out, when you go up to a mad rank for a while, then go back down to normal, you find that things are easier. A good example of this is perhaps Plasmo's tale of playing ULTRA for quite a while, then trying Maniac and 1CC'ing Maniac on his first credit ever. A guy once taught me this with regards to bench pressing. ie. he told me to go up to a weight that was far above my present level, just for a few reps (even assisted), then go back down. The result is that your body handles the previously unattainable weight after doing this.
So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

It's true. It's what you do in Cross Country training, sort of. It has other purposes too, but we do something called tempo workouts. We mathmatically figure out how fast we run during a race, and then we run distances on the track (from 400 meters up to 1600 meters) at a pace slightly above our 'race pace'. We do 5 or six of these with a minute rest in between. They train the anarobic systems of our bodies, and they help us get used to paces exceeding our current maximum. This lets us run faster during a 5K.

[seattlexc]

Hey Pirate1019, its nice to see another X-C runner. I like your comparison to running and shmups. I think you can also make some other connection:
-They are both hard as hell
-Not a lot of people understand them
-They can be very rewarding

By the way Pirate, who do you run for? I'm not running anymore, and as a result I'm now fat and lazy. But I used to be a hardcore runner a few years back in high school.

[Pirate1019]

Hey Pirate1019, its nice to see another X-C runner. I like your comparison to running and shmups. I think you can also make some other connection:
-They are both hard as hell
-Not a lot of people understand them
-They can be very rewarding

By the way Pirate, who do you run for? I'm not running anymore, and as a result I'm now fat and lazy. But I used to be a hardcore runner a few years back in high school.

Aside from being completely off topic, I'd be glad to discuss this. People here are pretty easygoing anyway.

Yes, all of those other connections are true. Our sport is another sports punishmet. I am such a masochist. I had a home meet today. 3 miles in 19:30. I run for the Richland (High School) Bombers. Might have heard of us. We are on the other side of the Cascades.

Now, back on topic. .

[No_not_like_Quake]

For older shmups, I don't find practice is needed, just absolute concentration and quick reactions, both of which can be aquired through practice... oops.

Limit your thoughts as much as possible while playing. "this games is good" or "good music on this stage" or otherwise acknowledging your enjoyment of the game is ok but keep these thoughts brief as they may break you out of that zoney frame of mind where your reaction time is optimum.

[CHI]

So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

good tip, ill keep that in mind.....
but then again, we didnt have this option when we started playing shooters at the arcades, it was credit after credit after credit and almost everyday.....

life in general: i think its all about 'mentality', once your mind is focused on something that you really like or enjoy, then you will achieve what your aiming for (shoot it in the eye.....LOL), or even better and not the reverse (disliking something and facing it everyday!).....
but after saying that, it all comes down to practice..... and time will tell.....

[Venom]

Hey Pirate1019, its nice to see another X-C runner. I like your comparison to running and shmups. I think you can also make some other connection:
-They are both hard as hell
-Not a lot of people understand them
-They can be very rewarding

By the way Pirate, who do you run for? I'm not running anymore, and as a result I'm now fat and lazy. But I used to be a hardcore runner a few years back in high school.

Heh, another former runner here. Gained 30 lbs since quitting a few years back. Developed some recuring injury in my hip, felt like being stabbed and couldn't take it any more. I think there is a connection, long distance running, they are solo things, trying to better previous accomplishments and finding new ways to train in order to improve.

[LUNardei]

So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

Sure. But (yes, I like to put doubts into every discussion ) how can you do it with thing of enormous difficulty like Hibahi or Shin Aki? Talking about that, with Shik Aki (ULTRA) no way you can "Know the problem, learn how to solve it (1.000.000 movements) and practice that until death". You can learn a tecnique to dodge less pink stuff (and you need like 4 lifes in stock for that) but every time you need to dodge a huge, stupid amount of bullets, and every time is different. Said that, I still need to know where is the edge between "Everyone can do it" and "A few can do it".

Rando: I see you don't remember very well your older rubbish

[Randorama]

Rando: I see you don't remember very well your older rubbish

No, you remember false things.Which have a specific origin, also. So, are you done with lies? Your nose is getting quite long (but your head still remains small ).

So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

In general, a threshold-pushing exercise forces the body to "know" that there can be a more difficult challenge than the one at present. It's a bit like "ehi body, you may be forced to bench-press 200 kgs instead of 150, so be ready and quickly develop more strength!".

In general, though, don't expect miracles to happen by simply using this tecnique. It surely improves things, but it is still necessary to practice on the intermediate levels in the meanwhile. If one can reach his personal limit through hard work and this personal limit is below the absolute limit, that's it. Speaking of bullet patterns, stuff like Shin Aiki is mostly about reflexes and precision. Without handling it properly, it will be simply undodgeable: with the right tecnique, it becomes very very hard. Not everyone's task, with or without training, but if one doesn't turn on his brain and reduces the complexity of the problem, the evaluation of the task difficulty is, simply, wrong.

[Pirate1019]

So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

In general, a threshold-pushing exercise forces the body to "know" that there can be a more difficult challenge than the one at present. It's a bit like "ehi body, you may be forced to bench-press 200 kgs instead of 150, so be ready and quickly develop more strength!".

In general, though, don't expect miracles to happen by simply using this tecnique. It surely improves things, but it is still necessary to practice on the intermediate levels in the meanwhile. If one can reach his personal limit through hard work and this personal limit is below the absolute limit, that's it. Speaking of bullet patterns, stuff like Shin Aiki is mostly about reflexes and precision. Without handling it properly, it will be simply undodgeable: with the right tecnique, it becomes very very hard. Not everyone's task, with or without training, but if one doesn't turn on his brain and reduces the complexity of the problem, the evaluation of the task difficulty is, simply, wrong.

This is indeed true. You can work to get better, but it has it's limits. Put it into videogame terms. RPGs are a good example. You can level up in RPGs to get stronger but most of the time you have a maximum limit to how high you can go. (100, for example) So if your absolute personal maximum cannot go as high as another persons, then you are just shit out of luck.

I do however, think that it is really difficult to reach your absolute personal maximum, so only a few people are going to know what it feels like to be the absolute best you can be, and still not be good enough.

[jpj]

i think there's a bit too much emphasis on reflexs and not enough on mentality... do you think japanese beat-em-up forums are full with kids whinging about why they shouldn't bother trying to master any king of fighters games because the koreans always win...? (maybe it's korean DNA... ) realistically, to get a WR, you're talking about seriously dedicating yourself to perhaps just *one* game for years.

it's about mentality and sensibilities. and perhaps that is what we really lack....

[Limbrooke]

Rando wrote;

Or training.

Good point! As Landshark has pointed out, when you go up to a mad rank for a while, then go back down to normal, you find that things are easier. A good example of this is perhaps Plasmo's tale of playing ULTRA for quite a while, then trying Maniac and 1CC'ing Maniac on his first credit ever. A guy once taught me this with regards to bench pressing. ie. he told me to go up to a weight that was far above my present level, just for a few reps (even assisted), then go back down. The result is that your body handles the previously unattainable weight after doing this.
So I guess the moral of the story is; start on hard and then work back down to default, and not the reverse.

I think DEL hit the nail on the head.
I agree completely with this habit and was contemplating for the current STGT week although a little late.

[Icarus]

Don't bring that shit here, LUN. Keep it in PM.
You only make yourself look more stupid the more you post it.

i think there's a bit too much emphasis on reflexs and not enough on mentality... do you think japanese beat-em-up forums are full with kids whinging about why they shouldn't bother trying to master any king of fighters games because the koreans always win...? (maybe it's korean DNA... ) realistically, to get a WR, you're talking about seriously dedicating yourself to perhaps just *one* game for years.

it's about mentality and sensibilities. and perhaps that is what we really lack....

And thus we return full-circle to the fourth page: is innate ability really all that important to achieving the best scores; or is it a bit of dedication, observation and good practice?

[LUNardei]

Don't bring that shit here, LUN. Keep it in PM.
You only make yourself look more stupid the more you post it.

PMs are useless in this case: it's stuff that Rando already knows, of course. And yes, I already knew that Rando is untouchable, thanks for the advice.

[LUNardei]

And thus we return full-circle to the fourth page: is innate ability really all that important to achieving the best scores; or is it a bit of dedication, observation and good practice?

Or maybe a mix, talking about BEST scores?

[Icarus]

Rando isnt untouchable.
Just don't bring your personal vendettas into this thread.
Or any other thread, for that matter. ^_-

Or maybe a mix, talking about BEST scores?

That depends on how you'd define "best". Perhaps I should have stated it, but I was talking about personal bests, not world-beating bests.

[LUNardei]

Rando isnt untouchable.
Just don't bring your personal vendettas into this thread.
Or any other thread, for that matter. ^_-

It's not about personal vengeance, just to clarify

That depends on how you'd define "best". Perhaps I should have stated it, but I was talking about personal bests, not world-beating bests.

Uhm, I think I/maybe we was/were talking about top level or WR scores. What you need to get those scores, in short.

[Ghegs]

Thread split, click here for hawt Internet drama!

[jpj]

when i read this thread it made me think of gaijin punch's translation of the interview on the ketsui dvd. the two players SYO and futabishi say it took them over a year of practicing the game everyday (for up to four hours a day) to 1 credit both loops. that's basically over 1,000 hours practice on a single videogame, in a competitive environment, with fellow fanatics. that's probably the blueprint for most arcade WRs right there. now if only they'd had "innate ability", they coulda saved themselves loads of time.........................................................

[DEL]

jpj wrote;

when i read this thread it made me think of gaijin punch's translation of the interview on the ketsui dvd. the two players SYO and futabishi say it took them over a year of practicing the game everyday (for up to four hours a day) to 1 credit both loops. that's basically over 1,000 hours practice on a single videogame, in a competitive environment, with fellow fanatics. that's probably the blueprint for most arcade WRs right there. now if only they'd had "innate ability", they coulda saved themselves loads of time.........................................................

They Could They Could

But seriously, judging from 20mils gained on Batrider Advance Course after just a couple weeks from arcade release-->There's just gotta be some innate stuff going on there........................................

[jpj]

but it's just speculation though, isn't it? maybe VTF-INO is a cyborg? who knows...

seriously though, i haven't got batrider, but am i right in thinking it's one where the japanese scores are LEAPS above top western players? (ie 15+ million gap) there could be a clever trick or technique they discovered that we just don't know about. and again, you have a lot of like-minded individuals playing, observing each others games, and swapping strategies. hell, don't they even have shmup "clubs/teams"? while we content to downloading shit quality replays years after a game has been released to figure this stuff out, they're there, doing the same thing in the flesh, from release.

[DEL]

Thought for the night.

I read this on another forum;

Also i remember reading something about the way westeners and far east asians process what they see. I can't really remember exactly what was in the article but it went along lines of if you draw a dot on a peice of paper. A westerner would focus on the black dot, while japanese would focus on the whiteness around the dot. Maybe the Japanese are seeing things we aren't...

& that was on a pure Fighter forum, not an STG forum.

^If the above is true, then it would have interesting implications on things like 'manics'.

[Twiddle]

Has a cultural root, probably. Westerners emphasize importance on "individuality" while Easterners emphasise importance on "the group".

Also, Japanese are, on average, really terrible at video games, while most non-gamers in the US could get past at least the first level or two of Pac-Man.

[Gungriffon Geona]

I find myself to be extremely good with twitch games, yet absolutely horrible with pattern games. in twitch games I tend to go into all-out beserk mode, where I can make movements without too much set thought. patterns tend to break me horribly because I'm a blind fighter like that. I don't like memorising a whole game to the placement of each and every shot. (even though I am fairly good at R-Type games, but only because of the Force device making it less of a nuisance.) Which puts me at a bizarre stalemate: in Raizing games I excel at the stages, but once I get to the bosses I start screwing up.
However, you put me infront of a Konami game (Gradius, Parodius, Twinbee, etc.) I can maul these games regardless of where I am in them. I think it might be horizontals do slightly better for me, but either way a twitcher is a twitcher, regardless of viewpoint the game uses.

[RotateMe]

I discovered something else while playing dragon blaze for some hours. After i got totally annoyed by the chaos having to use 3 buttons and 3 kinds of shooting and bombs I started a run where I didn't press any of the buttons, not shooting anything. Of course this would lower my rank but it was unbelievable more easy to get through the stages and studying the boss pattern was much more effective when I didn't have to release this dragon on him all the time. After some time I just killed the boss, done the same thing with the next form and thus beat the 2nd boss. I screw up at stage 3 but I think with not shooting anything it was better then I expected.

After that I was calmed down and way less confused. Of course this doesn't work for all games but it seems to work well for most raizing games. It helped me a lot to actually study the stage instead of concentrating on shooting the enemies and scoring points.