All the crappy PS2 shooters (or we hate R-Type Final thread)

[Gungriffon Geona]

To be fair, I hate Delta with a passion. something about it severely pisses me off when I play it, and it's not the difficulty. I think it's the lack of a real R-Typian feel, even after I've played every game in the series. Final has this, but it lacks the powerful soundtrack that the series has been very good about having.

To be honest, I see Final as something few have ever attempted. it took one of the most keyed design types (shiney rounded cockpit) and pushed it to the limit. What we got were interesting design ideas that should have gotten their own game, and a few things that didn't really deserve to be there in the first place. and let's be honest, if it hadn't been the last R-Type, we could have gotten to see these designs at their full potential. Who wants to bet the designers were planning on doing that before they were told to make this the final one, or something remotely similiar?

[Twiddle]

bad players like bad games and take only graphics criticisms seriously news at 11

call this elitism but i'm not sure if the more = better philosophy really works to anyone who plays games with any seriousness whatsoever

edit: lol

[Icarus]

The thing is, Turrican, as an R-Type and Irem fan, I rate the game based on how often I come back to them, and how much fun and challenge they still provide. I've always returned to I, II, III and Delta, Leo not as much. I've played Final for a month then shelved it, haven't touched it since, as it bored the hell out of me.

The later stages were interesting, but when you have to slog through the first three of slowdown, open spaces and repetitiveness, just to get to the fun parts, that does not spell "good game" to me.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Gungriffon Geona]

bad players like bad games and take only graphics criticisms seriously news at 11

call this elitism but i'm not sure if the more = better philosophy really works to anyone who plays games with any seriousness whatsoever

edit: lol

Games = Serious Business!
Boy, that's a first I've heard! I mean really, you deserve an award for that statement!
But yeah, no one should play games for a "serious" reason. games are there for the fun of it, that's why they're games.
I happen to like the game because I find it fun. I also like it for the ships, and the graphics make it slightly more enjoyable. and believe me, anyone who has played the game has atleast one favorite ship out of all of them because of one reason or another.
I don't care about fancy scoring capabilities or being able to see who's better than who at shooters. I like just being able to go through a game and have fun doing it. I wouldn't have played through the game a hundred times to get all 101 of the ships if I didn't like playing it.
Delta had no real reason to bore me like it did, but it managed to anyway. I don't even know why either. It just wasn't fun to me. it wasn't the difficulty either, since I've played and beaten every other R-Type as well. It especially wasn't the graphics, because I can sit and play most PS1 shooters and find them fun.

Now what you seem to say is that there is some sort of seriousness to gaming or scoring big. to that I say: get over yourself.

[Twiddle]

bad players like bad games and take only graphics criticisms seriously news at 11

call this elitism but i'm not sure if the more = better philosophy really works to anyone who plays games with any seriousness whatsoever

edit: lol

Games = Serious Business!
Boy, that's a first I've heard! I mean really, you deserve an award for that statement!
But yeah, no one should play games for a "serious" reason. games are there for the fun of it, that's why they're games.
I happen to like the game because I find it fun. I also like it for the ships, and the graphics make it slightly more enjoyable. and believe me, anyone who has played the game has atleast one favorite ship out of all of them because of one reason or another.
I don't care about fancy scoring capabilities or being able to see who's better than who at shooters. I like just being able to go through a game and have fun doing it. I wouldn't have played through the game a hundred times to get all 101 of the ships if I didn't like playing it.
Delta had no real reason to bore me like it did, but it managed to anyway. I don't even know why either. It just wasn't fun to me. it wasn't the difficulty either, since I've played and beaten every other R-Type as well. It especially wasn't the graphics, because I can sit and play most PS1 shooters and find them fun.

Now what you seem to say is that there is some sort of seriousness to gaming or scoring big. to that I say: get over yourself.

i'm sorry but if it weren't for turrican being condescending and including ad-hominem if x then y attacks towards those who care more about gameplay mechanics than what boils down to a collectable card game that reply wouldn't have been made

unfortunately since you seem to think that was directed at you i give you a hearty sir

[Rob]

I don't care about fancy scoring capabilities

This almost explains the Strike Gunner STG fandom. No, still unfathomable.

[Gungriffon Geona]

I don't care about fancy scoring capabilities

This almost explains the Strike Gunner STG fandom. No, still unfathomable.

That's childhood sentiment I think. that and the Snes version is like 10 times better than that piece of crap that was the arcade version. or did you only play the arcade version?
And note, play it in 2player if possible, it actually has a bit of team work to use with another player.

At any rate, Twiddle doesn't seem to get he obviously was talking about everyone who liked playing Final, so I don't think it's worth even continuing to listen to him badmouth when he probably only played it for 2 playthroughs and said screw it.

[bVork]

R-Type Final's alternate stages gimmick is seriously brain-damaged. Its like ranking that can't go down. Some of the alternates for Stage 2 are mindblowingly difficult. And of course, you can't change them for the next game unless you survive to the boss.

Imagine how a Raizing game would be received if ranking carried over from play to play. That's basically what R-Type Final does. Actually, it's even worse than that, since the ranking doesn't increase until the next play!

The 9 bajillion ships are pointless, too. I'd rather have a few balanced ships than a ton of entirely useless ones and a few way too powerful ones.

Suffice to say, R-Type Final is all about gimmicks that not only fall flat but actually detract from the core gameplay (which is decent but flawed... too many gaps between enemy formations)

[Twiddle]

At any rate, Twiddle doesn't seem to get he obviously was talking about everyone who liked playing Final, so I don't think it's worth even continuing to listen to him badmouth when he probably only played it for 2 playthroughs and said screw it.

right so i need to play a game that i got sick of (by playing for more than i can stand) some more before i am allowed to criticize it

[Gungriffon Geona]

At any rate, Twiddle doesn't seem to get he obviously was talking about everyone who liked playing Final, so I don't think it's worth even continuing to listen to him badmouth when he probably only played it for 2 playthroughs and said screw it.

right so i need to play a game that i got sick of (by playing for more than i can stand) some more before i am allowed to criticize it

Not really, but it certainly doesn't help that your mentality of "I'm right all the time" tends to put off everyone that says anything about liking a game you don't. And don't say it's not true, I've already noted 2 other times that this has happened.

[Twiddle]

At any rate, Twiddle doesn't seem to get he obviously was talking about everyone who liked playing Final, so I don't think it's worth even continuing to listen to him badmouth when he probably only played it for 2 playthroughs and said screw it.

right so i need to play a game that i got sick of (by playing for more than i can stand) some more before i am allowed to criticize it

Not really, but it certainly doesn't help that your mentality of "I'm right all the time" tends to put off everyone that says anything about liking a game you don't. And don't say it's not true, I've already noted 2 other times that this has happened.

which part is true, that i think i'm right all the time or that i put off people from saying that they like something i declare major flaws in

i plead guilty on all charges regarding the latter but i will admit to being wrong on numerous occasions, this not being one of them

[CFN]

XII Stag... because I only like jerking my joystick back and forth in a strictly metaphorical sense.

[Turrican]

i'm sorry but if it weren't for turrican being condescending and including ad-hominem if x then y attacks towards those who care more about gameplay mechanics than what boils down to a collectable card game that reply wouldn't have been made

What?! I was the only one in this thread not to focus on the pokemon stuff:

To be honest, you're focusing on the pokemon aspect of the package and are forgetting to see the actual game behind it. Final it's not about "gotta catch them all" - you can totally skip that part if you want. Unlocking ships is done just for the sake of doing it, and is not required. if the fact that 101 ships are available ruined the game for you, it's sad - as you've been deceived by the most superficial aspect of it.

oh, and commenting on my skills - what a fine gentleman you are.

right so i need to play a game that i got sick of (by playing for more than i can stand) some more before i am allowed to criticize it

i plead guilty on all charges regarding the latter but i will admit to being wrong on numerous occasions, this not being one of them

You are of course allowed to criticize it, as long as you don't state the false. Final's course selection is performance-related.

[Turrican]

The later stages were interesting, but when you have to slog through the first three of slowdown, open spaces and repetitiveness, just to get to the fun parts, that does not spell "good game" to me.

This is true, the first two stages are quite letargic - I too felt that the best part began from stage 5 and on.

R-Type Final's alternate stages gimmick is seriously brain-damaged. Its like ranking that can't go down. Some of the alternates for Stage 2 are mindblowingly difficult. And of course, you can't change them for the next game unless you survive to the boss.

Now, now - midblowingly difficult - we're talking of the second stage, come on.

Imagine how a Raizing game would be received if ranking carried over from play to play. That's basically what R-Type Final does. Actually, it's even worse than that, since the ranking doesn't increase until the next play!

I think you're confusing "alternate stages" with "ranking". If some alternate versions of a stage happen to be more difficult than others, this does not equates to "rank". As for the Raizing comparison - slightly misleading, as this game doesn't offer complex score mechanics and isn't built for arcades...

[Twiddle]

You are of course allowed to criticize it, as long as you don't state the false. Final's course selection is performance-related.

irony

[Strider77]

Neon wrote:
Other shooters that suck shit include Battle Garegga and Radiant Silvergun

Now I don't know how to reply to this

Don't bother.... you don't really need to.

[bVork]

Now, now - midblowingly difficult - we're talking of the second stage, come on.

I have serious trouble with a few of the stage 2 variations. Particularly 2.0 and 2.1. It isn't fun to accidentally shoot my way to one of those stages. In fact, I usually just reset the game if that happens to prevent repeated frustrating attempts to just change the fucking stage back.

I think you're confusing "alternate stages" with "ranking". If some alternate versions of a stage happen to be more difficult than others, this does not equates to "rank". As for the Raizing comparison - slightly misleading, as this game doesn't offer complex score mechanics and isn't built for arcades...

It was an analogy, not a direct comparison. And are you saying that an arcade-style shooter shouldn't be judged by arcade standards? If so, then the arcade-style features like scoring and credits are unnecessary. If not, then the gameplay itself is seriously faulty. Either one damns R-Type Final - either for trying to be something that it isn't, or for simply being very mediocre.

It's very illogical to have stages to change between plays. Like Twiddle mentioned earlier, games like RFJ and Psyvariar 2 do it sensibly based on what you do during the previous stages. The only reason Irem did it the way they did is to increase replay value. People should be encouraged to replay the game through interesting gameplay mechanics and repeated runs for the best score, not unlockable ships and alternate stage gimmicks.

[Turrican]

I have serious trouble with a few of the stage 2 variations. Particularly 2.0 and 2.1. It isn't fun to accidentally shoot my way to one of those stages. In fact, I usually just reset the game if that happens to prevent repeated frustrating attempts to just change the fucking stage back.

What, the dried ones? Funny - I remember having more trouble with the frozen/submerged ones. Still think they're roughly on the same level though - which may be seen as a missed opportunity, really. Then again, huge difficulty differences right at second stage may have been uncautious.

It was an analogy, not a direct comparison. And are you saying that an arcade-style shooter shouldn't be judged by arcade standards?

It depends on your definition of arcade-style. Of course, every shump is an arcade-style game. But it would made little sense to judge R-Type in the light of recent arcade gaming trends, wouldn't it?

Also, the series switched permanently on home market since 3. And as you've read so far, I've basically said that Final's big problem is that console shooters, with their own peculiar mechanics, aren't particularly loved right now.

If so, then the arcade-style features like scoring and credits are unnecessary. If not, then the gameplay itself is seriously faulty. Either one damns R-Type Final - either for trying to be something that it isn't, or for simply being very mediocre.

I don't think it's one nor the other. But if I had to choose, it would be mediocrity - because for sure the game stays true to its roots...

It's very illogical to have stages to change between plays. Like Twiddle mentioned earlier, games like RFJ and Psyvariar 2 do it sensibly based on what you do during the previous stages. The only reason Irem did it the way they did is to increase replay value.

This also is true for the most course changes in Final! The two ending stages change accordingly to what you do in stage five - although alternate routes are accessible only after finishing the game once. Stage 2 variation also follows that rule. I don't need to remember you that it's perfectly possible NOT to change stage 2 - actually, one has to try hard to destroy those blue and red pills instead of the boss' core. So, if you prefer to avoid 2.0 and 2.1, simply do it.
Anyway, the game doesn't loop, so if you accidentally change stage 2, it will only affect your next playthrough. So it won't cause much danger to your score.

People should be encouraged to replay the game through interesting gameplay mechanics and repeated runs for the best score,

R-Type game mechanics stayed roughly the same. I can concur with Icarus when he says that execution isn't spotless as in Delta - but R-Type core gameplay is still that. The use of the force was its revolution and "interesting gameplay mechanic" - and concerning repeated runs for best score: you can play it through and through to better your score - if you lament the lacking of score-multipliers or similar, that criticism is true for the whole series, not just Final.

not unlockable ships and alternate stage gimmicks.

What one finds in the game is personal - while a more casual-oriented player could be encouraged to replay to unlock ships, a shooter fan can still have plent of score-gaming opportunities, as long as he doesn't look for anything that wasn't in the first R-Type too. The game even comes with a score attack mode that provide passwords for your records...



Edit: a good point of criticism would be that the game doesn't try to innovate at all - after all, they could have implemented score-multipliers, chaining and such very easily. Instead, Final could be seen as a Delta remake with some branching paths. This is true, but then again, the developers had their minds set on doing the last one from the beginning - it would have felt bizarre to change a well-routed series on the last episode. Gradius V for example, succeded in introducing news in the formula - but then again, a VI is supposed to follow. I'm not saying Irem took the best decision possible - I'm just saying, let's at least respect their deliberate choices, instead of calling them "errors" because they are not in line with what we expect from a shmup today.

[rib]

from most annoying:

xii stag: i think its the most disappointing shmup i have played for the ps2, the graphic are ok but the gameplay/system is so boring and annoying, unbelievable.

silpheed: i still wondering why they added so many annoying elements from raystorm/crisis. if you didnt play this, well its basically raywar..

r-type: just played it yesterday and again managed to stuck at level 4 boss, sure the large ship range has some nice "ill try it again with that one" feel to it and the graphics are really nice but the gameplay...
many people complain about the slow gamespeed which if in the right mood can be enjoyable, but what i hate is the moment you die and get put back to some annoying point, good example for a game where one element can destoy the whole gameplay.

finally psyvariar 2: am i the only one hating this for its stupid "perma rotate the stick and make your hand hurt" game, plus the stupidly tiny "lucky" bullet patterns in later levels. i wish the gameplay would be as nice as its visual style and soundtrack.

[Rob]

Ibara.

[Turrican]

Ibara.

Care to explain a little? Just out of curiosity you know - never played it myself.

[Rob]

Sorry, was a little lazy there. I'm not sure I can call it "crappy," but I've enjoyed only a few '00 shooters less (to where I can't even enjoy playing for survival - other two would be Chaos Field and Psyvariar 1).

-HATE the gunpods.
-The persnicketiness of the bombs to destroy scenery as cleanly as in Batrider.
-Don't like the patterns. Like, overall.
-Too much loading in the port.
-It doesn't look as good as I thought it would. Partly the port's fault, but the color choice is nasty. Dull greys mixed with reds and pinks.

[Shocky]

Ouch, I was away for a couple of days and still the battle rages on... so much to comment. I see Turrican already did a good job regarding graphics and atmosphere and some other aspects, so I'll try to make this short:

I mean hell, even Windows Media Player or Winamp with a decent visualizer...we do play games for gameplay, right? Plenty better 'atmosphere' from some good house or trance than Final's shitty BGM.

"Shitty BGM"? C'mon... Well, music's even more a matter of taste, and I loved most of Final's audio. It suits the game's slow pace. The first stage music, or more like ambient sounds, already set the mood just right, and felt original compared to the technotrance stuff of almost every other first level. OK, the submerged stage's music was pretty mediocre, the BGM in Delta's underwater stage was much better. All the boss tracks, the oppressive, dark music of level 3 and the weird sounds of F-A were all excellent and fresh and most of all, supported the atmospheres of the levels. I'd say not the best R-Type soundtrack (that would be of course in the original), but a very memorable sountrack anyway.

Since this hasn't been brought up yet, the game was fugly. Yes, atmosphere is key in this series. The preview screenshots looked fantastic, nice backgrounds and lighting effects. The first background did look nice, but then it turns into the most plastic, featureless looking crap. A few bosses I remember looked like beaten up pools of T1000. Having 3 versions of 1 boring stage was just another symptom of quantity over quality.

Fugly? No fugling way. I admit that there is a certain plastic feel to the graphics, but it's consistent, detailed and the 3D is used very efficiently. Almost all of the designs themselves are simply mindblowing. All weaponry; the colorful beams and projectiles.. wow. But the best thing are the actual mechadesigns, which are flawless and stylish. Every single detail. I really can't find any substandard stuff here like can be found in the god among games, Gradius V: the meatball-meteorites, the totally lame 2D-looking supposed 3D creatures in the beginning of the vagina stage, or the plain boring looking grey box things appearing just before entering the mothership in stage 2 in the same game. None of that stuff would have passed Irem's quality control.

As for background art and animations: OK, I admit that the stage 2 variations, although nice, are nothing to write home about and stages 3.5 and 6.0 could look better and F-B has some fugly colored Bydo crap all over, but stages 1,3,5 and 6.2 look amazing, and the rest just very good. I hope someone tries to top this with HDTV resolution...

"Featureless"? "A few bosses... Pools of T1000"? OK.. so you didn't get very far in the game then. Having 3 or 5 versions of any stage is an added bonus, no-one's forced to play them.

Some of the stages and stage orders would have worked quite well without the addition of the seperate ships; and too many stage routes, while nice for variety, confuse things too much. A single, ordered stage route would have been better.
...
A selection of 10, maybe 15 individual ships could have worked in the game's favour. 101 bodykits with optional paintjobs does not a good game make.

I don't think the stage routes confuse the player too much, besides there are FAQs in the interwebs if they prove to be problematic. The 6.x and F.x stages only appear once the game's been cleared. One has to have quite a limited brain if one starts crying when one sees a new stage instead of the old familiar stage.

101 bodykits don't make a good game, true, but this is a case where the game is already good and the new ships are so interestingly different that the game warps to a whole new level of coolness and positive pokémonism. Optional paintjobs.. didn't even try those. Maybe someday there's gonna be this internet-wide shoot'em up -game where players get to design their own ships and paint them... hmm...

R-Type Final's alternate stages gimmick is seriously brain-damaged. Its like ranking that can't go down. Some of the alternates for Stage 2 are mindblowingly difficult. And of course, you can't change them for the next game unless you survive to the boss.

Yes, sometimes it truly sucks that Stage 2 is determined for the next game, especially since often the wrong prong of the boss is destroyed accidentally. And indeed there a couple of spots in Stage 2 which are just too hard when you go dying at the wrong moment, at least on BYDO/R-TYPER. Namely in the Desert variation and the partly submerged, where you need to go underwater in this area with very little space to move and insects creeping and shooting on every side.

People should be encouraged to replay the game through interesting gameplay mechanics and repeated runs for the best score, not unlockable ships and alternate stage gimmicks.

And who are you to say why/how people should be playing? I barely look at the score and concentrate on the unlockable ships and alternate stages, and am perfectly happy with that. Still looking forward to completing F-C on R-Typer, even in the score attack...

many people complain about the slow gamespeed which if in the right mood can be enjoyable, but what i hate is the moment you die and get put back to some annoying point, good example for a game where one element can destoy the whole gameplay.

Correct, the right mood is required, because the game *is* slow as hell when compared to the manic stuff of nowadays. You hate checkpoints? Well I love them. They don't destroy the whole gameplay, they just take away the unwelcome chance to credit feed. It's surprising how one can sometimes navigate in the worst bullet storms without any weapons if forced to. Gradius 1-4 are good examples, the true challenge only starts when you die and have to start dodging and thinking on which weapons to spend the hard-earned power-up pods. HOWEVER, there are cases where the level designs around a checkpoint are a bit too tough, like the aforementioned Stage 2 variations in Final.


Oh yeah, Pink Sweets looks awful. Plastic feeling graphics in bright, clashing colors... Cave needs an art director.

[Neon]

Neon wrote:
Other shooters that suck shit include Battle Garegga and Radiant Silvergun

Now I don't know how to reply to this

Don't bother.... you don't really need to.

Metal Slug and Contra are pretty shitty shmups too

[Twiddle]

Neon wrote:
Other shooters that suck shit include Battle Garegga and Radiant Silvergun

Now I don't know how to reply to this

Don't bother.... you don't really need to.

Metal Slug and Contra are pretty shitty shmups too

[Turrican]

I'd say not the best R-Type soundtrack (that would be of course in the original), but a very memorable sountrack anyway.

nostalgia aside, Delta has the best score, by a mile. Final's not too bad, although I wouldn't listen it out of the game. Speaking of music, the much revered III has very bad music and sound effects, imho.

Fugly? No fugling way. I admit that there is a certain plastic feel to the graphics, but it's consistent, detailed and the 3D is used very efficiently. Almost all of the designs themselves are simply mindblowing. All weaponry; the colorful beams and projectiles.. wow. But the best thing are the actual mechadesigns, which are flawless and stylish. Every single detail. I really can't find any substandard stuff here like can be found in the god among games, Gradius V: the meatball-meteorites, the totally lame 2D-looking supposed 3D creatures in the beginning of the vagina stage, or the plain boring looking grey box things appearing just before entering the mothership in stage 2 in the same game. None of that stuff would have passed Irem's quality control.

pretty much agree - if there's a single point in which Final beats GV, is overall aesthetics.

Some of the stages and stage orders would have worked quite well without the addition of the seperate ships; and too many stage routes, while nice for variety, confuse things too much. A single, ordered stage route would have been better.
...
A selection of 10, maybe 15 individual ships could have worked in the game's favour. 101 bodykits with optional paintjobs does not a good game make.

101 bodykits don't make a good game, true, but this is a case where the game is already good and the new ships are so interestingly different that the game warps to a whole new level of coolness and positive pokémonism. Optional paintjobs.. didn't even try those. Maybe someday there's gonna be this internet-wide shoot'em up -game where players get to design their own ships and paint them... hmm...

"Positive pokemonism" is an oxymoron. What Icarus really fails to see imho is exactly that in Final you are given 10-15 ships: in fact, if you rule out: all the variants of a same lineup, and just focus on the main kind of weapon / force device they carry, it's roughly that number.

Oh, and have a look at some paintjobs: I thought all they did was to change the selected part to a fixed color: instead each body color often comes with unique decorations - nice little touch!

Yes, sometimes it truly sucks that Stage 2 is determined for the next game, especially since often the wrong prong of the boss is destroyed accidentally.

Come on, it's not that easy to destroy prongs by mistake... They do give you the choice.

Still looking forward to completing F-C on R-Typer, even in the score attack...

Did you already get all the ships? With the most advanced ones, is quite doable.

Oh yeah, Pink Sweets looks awful. Plastic feeling graphics in bright, clashing colors... Cave needs an art director.

I sadly didn't keep up with Cave titles - DDP looked sweet, but those were still hand-drawn pixel art times... What I saw of Mushihime was mostly renders...

[Icarus]

"Positive pokemonism" is an oxymoron. What Icarus really fails to see imho is exactly that in Final you are given 10-15 ships: in fact, if you rule out: all the variants of a same lineup, and just focus on the main kind of weapon / force device they carry, it's roughly that number.

Errr no. 15 properly crafted, completely individual ships, intelligently balanced around the gameplay and stages; not 15 "types" of ships, all variants on each other, with about 10 micro-variants per type. I'd much rather have a well developed, focused selection to choose from, than a roster of ill-tought-out choices. Half the ship types are useless novelties, and a large proportion are completely overpowered.

Oh, and have a look at some paintjobs: I thought all they did was to change the selected part to a fixed color: instead each body color often comes with unique decorations - nice little touch!

Oh wow. My loins are a-quiver.

Pretty defensive about the game, aren't we.

[Twiddle]

Graphics and gimmicks over gameplay

[Turrican]

"Positive pokemonism" is an oxymoron. What Icarus really fails to see imho is exactly that in Final you are given 10-15 ships: in fact, if you rule out: all the variants of a same lineup, and just focus on the main kind of weapon / force device they carry, it's roughly that number.

Errr no. 15 properly crafted, completely individual ships, intelligently balanced around the gameplay and stages; not 15 "types" of ships, all variants on each other, with about 10 micro-variants per type.

1. They are properly crafted 2; They aren't completely individual, and it would absurd to assume that from 101 ships; 3. the stages are intelligently balanced around the R-9 - which is to say around all the rest too. Not unlike 3 or Delta.

I'd much rather have a well developed, focused selection to choose from, than a roster of ill-tought-out choices. Half the ship types are useless novelties, and a large proportion are completely overpowered.

I repeat myself - the huge number fooled you. You have in Final the same intelligent balance that you could find in Delta and 3, for example - since you have access to all those Force Devices (and now don't tell me that stage design in delta was so clever to forse a good use of Tentacle or Anchor...). Half the ships are novelties: it's what I've said half, if not more - again, what's the problem in having fifty additional outfits, if there's a good bulk of 15-20 which are playable and different enough to make a difference?. Large proportion overpowered: not too true, I can think only to the Ragnarock II that is completely unfair to the Bydo. Again, to unlock the most powerful ones either you cheat or spend too much time with the game...

I'll leave the comment on paintjobs for what it is - a cheap hit coming from you. It's not that every time one mentions a completely superfluous element he must be reminded that gameplay is all that matters, you know.

[Icarus]

1. They are properly crafted 2; They aren't completely individual, and it would absurd to assume that from 101 ships; 3. the stages are intelligently balanced around the R-9 - which is to say around all the rest too. Not unlike 3 or Delta.

1) They are not. Some ships have useless weapons that cripple a player when collected. Some ships have useless chargebeams that are mere gimmicks. Some ships have game-breaking overpowered weapon selection. All are variations on the same theme, with "added bonuses".

At least in 3 and Delta the main ships all played differently - the R9 would have strengths based around its main laser weapons and screen coverage, the RX's had great defense and the semi-intelligent Force Device added a strategic dimension to the use of detaching the Force, the R13 would use its Anchor Force as a primary weapon, but still had good strength with its lasers.

Heck, even the POW Armor played differently to the main ships.

2) That is my point. a handful of completely individual ships would have been a better choice than 101 variants of the same theme. Think Batrider - 18 ships, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, all useful in some way and all crafted to play the game in their own particular way. Can't say the same for the 101 in Final.

3) Don't agree: "the stages are intelligently balanced around the R-9" and the R-9 only. If the stages were crafted to fit the strengths and weaknesses of the other ship variants then perhaps. But as it stands, Delta still has the better stage design over Final, for the simple fact that each stage makes you use your chosen ship's strengths and weaknesses. See point 1.

I repeat myself - the huge number fooled you. You have in Final the same intelligent balance that you could find in Delta and 3, for example - since you have access to all those Force Devices (and now don't tell me that stage design in delta was so clever to forse a good use of Tentacle or Anchor...).

I'll leave the comment on paintjobs for what it is - a cheap hit coming from you. It's not that every time one mentions a completely superfluous element he must be reminded that gameplay is all that matters, you know.

The stage design in Delta was clever enough to allow you to play the complete game without the use of the Force Device, or without the use of powerups. Can't say the same for Final (and believe me, I've tried).

That is stage balance, not the retarded design evident in Final.

Might I remind you that when someone mentions a "superfluous element" with regards to a game's balance and design, they are talking about gameplay.

Graphics and gimmicks over gameplay

I agree. Superficial elements over well-designed gameplay FTW.
</sarcasm>