All the crappy PS2 shooters (or we hate R-Type Final thread)

[Turrican]

Ah ah, this one was your lowest yet.

Why? Darius has you preview the stage and then sadistically end your credit, as opposed Psyvariar or RFJ going "you're not worthy" and sending you to the lower grade stage. Two methods performing the same thing (splitting players of different skill levels into paths) just Darius is an asshole about it.

I've yet to find a non-console Darius that was structured in the manner where the difficulty level between stage paths is completely random.

Of course they're not random - they're increasingly harder, like 99% of shmups out there, even those who don't allow any kind of stage selection. Going by your logic, Final, like every other game, switches to stages according to performance, because as you said, If I suck I'll die right at the beginning of next stage. That's why I found your logic amusing. ^_^

[Turrican]

Fine, it doesn't entertain you so you don't play it. Perfectly fine. But then why do you talk about it on boards? Without knowing it too much, too?

I'm not sure how you continue to expect people to care or know about much of what they've come to not enjoy. A few things can put people off from doing so.

So you were basically badmouthing the game - talking bad about it without really even care about it in first stance. QED.

P.S. now i'm sure I fell victim of a kusoteam ploy to keep me here while I could go and improve my score at Dragon Blaze.

So long!

[Twiddle]

Of course they're not random - they're increasingly harder, like 99% of shmups out there, even those who don't allow any kind of stage selection. Going by your logic, Final, like every other game, switches to stages according to performance, because as you said, If I suck I'll die right at the beginning of next stage. That's why I found your logic amusing. ^_^

Right, I'm sure ship #30something and losing 35 ships and magically getting stage F-B, 2-B or whatever and then getting to that same stage on the same ship without dying was a performance-related mechanic.

So you were basically badmouthing the game - talking bad about it without really even care about it in first stance. QED.

that
is
the
point
of
this
thread

[Turrican]

Right, I'm sure ship #30something and losing 35 ships and magically getting stage F-B, 2-B or whatever and then getting to that same stage on the same ship without dying was a performance-related mechanic.

Losing 35 ships? what are you babbling about?

that
is
the
point
of
this
thread

Not, really - poor Strider77 just wanted advice about which game to avoid - and by mentioning Final here you did him a disservice.

[Twiddle]

Losing 35 ships? what are you babbling about?

Simply put, the fact of simply having a certain ship and getting into a different stage than the usual regardless of how much you continue isn't exactly an example of gameplay depth

Not, really - poor Strider77 just wanted advice about which game to avoid - and by mentioning Final here you did him a disservice.

I saw the other post asking about all good PS2 shooters. I thought it'd be amusing and just as useful to list all the crappy ones and why you feel that way.

Plus we all like to bitch about why x games sucks b\c of no true low res, lack of emulated slowdown, lack of tate, crappy scoring method ect...

[Turrican]

Losing 35 ships? what are you babbling about?

Simply put, the fact of simply having a certain ship and getting into a different stage than the usual regardless of how much you continue isn't exactly an example of gameplay depth

So what? I never said otherwise, it happens just for stage 3.5 - it doesn't require performance but sure is a nice touch to have. All the ending stages that you mention are accessible to every ship.

Not, really - poor Strider77 just wanted advice about which game to avoid - and by mentioning Final here you did him a disservice.

I saw the other post asking about all good PS2 shooters. I thought it'd be amusing and just as useful to list all the crappy ones and why you feel that way.

Plus we all like to bitch about why x games sucks b\c of no true low res, lack of emulated slowdown, lack of tate, crappy scoring method ect...

He asked about games that suck and mentioned technical flaws. You replied:

"R-Type Final"

because you don't like its style. Unlike UFO or Rob, you didn't even concede that's due to implementation - you just don't care. Sometimes it's better not to write letting people think you're a fool, instead of writing and removing all the doubts.

[Twiddle]

because you don't like its style. Unlike UFO or Rob, you didn't even concede that's due to implementation - you just don't care.

before you replied with a set of comedy posts I considered this a throwaway topic where I can put in a throwaway post (needed to kill time)

Sometimes it's better not to write letting people think you're a fool, instead of writing and removing all the doubts.

this is hilarious because you're an even better example of that

alright, we've met the "NO U" quota fo' this thread

[Shocky]

Final's reliance on unlocking a gajillion ships for replay value was a gimmick,

Of course it's a gimmick, and it works. At least 'Final has a gimmick to make it stand out from the crowd. Actually it has an abundance of gimmicks, especially in the Stages 6.x and F.x.

Stage 3.5 is just one tiny detail, but it still adds to the appeal of the game, which I'd consider something like "shmup tourism". Sometimes I just like to visit 3.5. Since there are so many comparisons between Gradius V and Final, I'm forced to say that GV stages are always exactly the same, the weapons are limited and it gets BORING.

I see that hc shmuppers have a problem with accepting a game focusing on unexpected areas...

The gameplay can be so different with different ships. Even the easier difficulty settings can be a real challenge with a ship like Hakusan (the first one with the short "spear" for impaling nearby enemies). Some of the later ships are indeed ridiculously overpowered, but luckily the player is allowed to change ships between levels.

The final final stage, F-C, is a mean bastard even with the most destructive customized ships... and it takes a lot of nerve, just one life, no continues. Could there be a better ending for the series? Who cares. This is good enough.

[Twiddle]

Stage 3.5 is just one tiny detail, but it still adds to the appeal of the game, which I'd consider something like "shmup tourism". Sometimes I just like to visit 3.5. Since there are so many comparisons between Gradius V and Final, I'm forced to say that GV stages are always exactly the same, the weapons are limited and it gets BORING.

Well I guess I see the point of view of someone who gets by gradius v by pushing the free play button every 3 minutes now

I see that hc shmuppers have a problem with accepting a game focusing on unexpected areas...

The stages aren't harder or easier. If these levels were designed around the chosen ship's gimmicks or weapons, there wouldn't be as much of a problem, but they aren't...

The gameplay can be so different with different ships. Even the easier difficulty settings can be a real challenge with a ship like Hakusan (the first one with the short "spear" for impaling nearby enemies). Some of the later ships are indeed ridiculously overpowered, but luckily the player is allowed to change ships between levels.

This seems like one of those absolutely ineffective ships that's made solely to make a player say "COOL IT HAS A SHIP WITH A SPEAR ON IT THAT IMPALES ENEMIES". Stop mistaking this for gameplay depth!

[Shocky]

Well I guess I see the point of view of someone who gets by gradius v by pushing the free play button every 3 minutes now

Well that someone isn't me. I've been playing the Gradius games since 1986, when there were still checkpoints instead of respawns to separate the shmup gods from crying little kids

I'm just saying the super long and too easy first levels make GV somewhat boring. You have to play for 30-45 minutes before getting real action. In 'Final it's almost the same, but you can always test out level variations and stuff when doing this routine. In GV, there's only the weapon edit mode once you clear the game, and what a disappointment that was... Where were the Gradius Gaiden weapons?

Maybe I was too harsh about the weaponry though, the four option types give some serious replay value.

The stages aren't harder or easier. If these levels were designed around the chosen ship's gimmicks or weapons, there wouldn't be as much of a problem, but they aren't...

What you say?

It's about the freedom of choice. Freedom to play the same level with a challenging ship or a fun ship or an easy ship. The levels are super diverse, especially towards the end. There are spots where some of the more exotic ships are suddenly very useful. And it's this exploration factor combined with beautiful destruction that appeals to me.

This seems like one of those absolutely ineffective ships that's made solely to make a player say "COOL IT HAS A SHIP WITH A SPEAR ON IT THAT IMPALES ENEMIES". Stop mistaking this for gameplay depth!

You're right, and immediately after that, wrong. They have surely thrown in some ships just for the weirdness factor and without really balancing the gameplay. But I say this results in unexpected ways to handle enemies, and in some tough situations (like some level 2 variations on R-Typer difficulty) forces the player to think of all the ships and select the one best suited for the sitution. It also gives an option to try surviving with a ship that has a weaponry that's really hard to master but very rewarding once you learn it. And this, my friends, is gameplay depth.

[Gungriffon Geona]

The gameplay can be so different with different ships. Even the easier difficulty settings can be a real challenge with a ship like Hakusan (the first one with the short "spear" for impaling nearby enemies). Some of the later ships are indeed ridiculously overpowered, but luckily the player is allowed to change ships between levels.

This seems like one of those absolutely ineffective ships that's made solely to make a player say "COOL IT HAS A SHIP WITH A SPEAR ON IT THAT IMPALES ENEMIES". Stop mistaking this for gameplay depth!

Despite how short the range was on that ship, making an actual hit was considerably stronger than most of the other wave cannons the game has to offer. This is especially true on the last ship in the "spear" where it was ungodly powerful. It was actually rather fun wasting a shot just to watch the screen shake from hitting it on the ground.
In my opinion the game really did use some interesting mechanics for the ships. Albeit some were entirely unnecessary, (the Split Wave Cannon and Illusion Wave Cannon come to mind.) But some parts were very welcome "innovations" and fun. (the TL ships with the Saber Force, the "Gallop" ships with speed changing in mind that added alot of capability, and the Decoy Wave Cannons.) My only real issue is the slowdown and lack of an actually good soundtrack. Otherwise I have thoroughly enjoyed myself with this game.

[Turrican]

The stages aren't harder or easier. If these levels were designed around the chosen ship's gimmicks or weapons, there wouldn't be as much of a problem, but they aren't...

The stages are designed around R-9 specifications, and all the hundred ships that precede/follow it work mostly the same. So the stages are are built around the three/four main types of force pods. Of course, given the huge number, there's a share of gimmick... Or are you saying that they should have created stages around each one of them?

Sigh, give up, Twiddle. You know shit about this game. Download some more videos at least.

[Twiddle]

I'm just saying the super long and too easy first levels make GV somewhat boring. You have to play for 30-45 minutes before getting real action. In 'Final it's almost the same, but you can always test out level variations and stuff when doing this routine. In GV, there's only the weapon edit mode once you clear the game, and what a disappointment that was... Where were the Gradius Gaiden weapons?

GV is, overall, the easiest of the five numbered Gradius games, and I'd say that's a byproduct of aiming for the consumer market after an arcade release was scrapped. That being said, even if the earlier stages were easy, you were left to improve on those stages by aiming to milk the enemy pods out of what they were worth, or Dangun-progressing the interim formations by killing everything that's present in that moment. It's something R-Type Final didn't foster very well, unlike its predecessors.

Weapon Edit had basically everything from Gradius III except the "lives for options" and shrink feature. I'd say the GG arsenal didn't cross anyone at Treasure's mind. However, was the GG arsenal *that* necessary? Spread Bomb, Tail Gun, Energy Blast, Rotate. Cheesing fun. Functionality over looks.

You're right, and immediately after that, wrong. They have surely thrown in some ships just for the weirdness factor and without really balancing the gameplay. But I say this results in unexpected ways to handle enemies, and in some tough situations (like some level 2 variations on R-Typer difficulty) forces the player to think of all the ships and select the one best suited for the sitution. It also gives an option to try surviving with a ship that has a weaponry that's really hard to master but very rewarding once you learn it. And this, my friends, is gameplay depth.

I'm not sure if that's any superior to developers thinking of most things the player will do to break the system or finding how to prevent ways to irreparably screw themselves before they get anywhere without compromising the challenge.

The stages are designed around R-9 specifications, and all the hundred ships that precede/follow it work mostly the same. So the stages are are built around the three/four main types of force pods. Of course, given the huge number, there's a share of gimmick... Or are you saying that they should have created stages around each one of them?

You can create rigid stage paths for the same stage for a number of ships or ship/force types with wildly differing weapon sets (quite a few arcade releases have done this), possibly circumventing the more powerful = WINNAR!!! thing that goes on in R-Type Final.

[CIT]

GV is, overall, the easiest of the five numbered Gradius games, and I'd say that's a byproduct of aiming for the consumer market after an arcade release was scrapped.

Uh, no! Gradius (1) is BY FAR the easiest game in the series, followed by 2. Gradius V is somewhere round where IV and Gaiden are. And of course everybody knows III is the most difficult.

[Twiddle]

GV is, overall, the easiest of the five numbered Gradius games, and I'd say that's a byproduct of aiming for the consumer market after an arcade release was scrapped.

Uh, no! Gradius (1) is BY FAR the easiest game in the series, followed by 2. Gradius V is somewhere round where IV and Gaiden are. And of course everybody knows III is the most difficult.

Gradius 1 turns really fucking ugly if you die in the wrong place, unlike V.

[CIT]

Gradius 1 only turns ugly if you die in stage 7 or in later loops.

Or let's put it this way: I (very average player) beat Gradius after about 5 hours of very laid back play. I still haven't beaten Gradius V (have about 25 hours of gameplay logged).

[Twiddle]

Gradius 1 only turns ugly if you die in stage 7 or in later loops.

Or let's put it this way: I (very average player) beat Gradius after about 5 hours of very laid back play. I still haven't beaten Gradius V (have about 25 hours of gameplay logged).

On the other hand, my position on Gradius V was very consistent while Gradius ends my credit at stages 5-7 with a barrel of comedy about 2/3 of the time.

[Neon]

Sometimes it's better not to write letting people think you're a fool, instead of writing and removing all the doubts.

Oh SNAP. Well, as a public service I should let everyone know how artistically retarded I am (games are art, now?).

Specifically, how does 30 seconds of nothing 'build tension?' Compile ought to be the most intense games out there if this is the case, yet I don't find myself exactly shaking with adrenaline after playing Blazing Lazers, and even that still beats R type Final cause it doesn't have a ton of game-breaking ships. Say, wouldn't a good artist make a timeless masterpiece rather than an unlock-everything-and-throw-it-away product? TBH, it seems like you want to overlook RTF's blatant flaws to praise it's 'old sk00l'-ness, but whatever. If you like it, more power to you, sweeping assumptions about those who don't is rather silly however. If it wasn't flawed - not as in OMG I H8 OLDSKOOL but actual flaws - I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Other shooters that suck shit include Battle Garegga and Radiant Silvergun

[Twiddle]

Other shooters that suck shit include Battle Garegga and Radiant Silvergun

Now I don't know how to reply to this

[Shocky]

Weapon Edit had basically everything from Gradius III except the "lives for options" and shrink feature. I'd say the GG arsenal didn't cross anyone at Treasure's mind. However, was the GG arsenal *that* necessary? Spread Bomb, Tail Gun, Energy Blast, Rotate. Cheesing fun. Functionality over looks.

If they venture out to create a Gradius game, they could respect the roots more.. put some Moai statues somewhere and maybe even check out the earlier games in the series, e.g. Gradius 2: Gofer no Yabou Episode II had some wicked weaponry that's also missing from the weapon edit. GG arsenal is not *that* necessary, neither is the weapon edit mode. It all just adds to the gameplay depth...

But I wouldn't want to discuss Gradius V too much in a thread called the shitties PS2 shooters or something, it's an awesome game

I'm not sure if that's any superior to developers thinking of most things the player will do to break the system or finding how to prevent ways to irreparably screw themselves before they get anywhere without compromising the challenge.

They are professionals, and that's their job. Irem/Metro 3D went the hard way and tried something unthinkable, and pulled it off nicely.

Oh SNAP. Well, as a public service I should let everyone know how artistically retarded I am (games are art, now?).

Yeah, they are art (too). Neeext.

Specifically, how does 30 seconds of nothing 'build tension?' Compile ought to be the most intense games out there if this is the case, yet I don't find myself exactly shaking with adrenaline after playing Blazing Lazers, and even that still beats R type Final cause it doesn't have a ton of game-breaking ships.

30 seconds of nothing indeed builds tension and lets the player focus on the graphics and music for a moment, u know, the art. Yesterday I played Salamander 2 and tried to analyze why it looks and feels so crap despite the clear effort that's been put to it. Then I noticed. It just advances way too fast, no dramatic pauses whatsoever, everything just whizzes by without making an impact. It takes some 10 minutes to clear the whole game, and leaves a very empty feeling unlike its predecessor (or GV for that matter...)

The ships aren't "game-breaking". The game CONSISTS of switching ships and trying them out.

Say, wouldn't a good artist make a timeless masterpiece rather than an unlock-everything-and-throw-it-away product?

Indeed. And that's what Irem did. They made a unlock-everything-and-throw-it-away-and-then-get-it-back-and-start-all-over product. I'm constantly getting ideas of new strategies I want to try out with some ships that I neglected. Anyway, the designs themselves in the game are timeless masterpieces.


Based on a lack of evidence, the court finds the defendant (RTF)...

NOT CRAP.

[Neon]

Can always go to a museum with a CD player, they'll have even better graphics and you can take as long of a dramatic pause as you want

Hell you'd build so much tension, you just might go on a ninja rampage and totally uppercut some kid just for opening a window.

[Turrican]

Sometimes it's better not to write letting people think you're a fool, instead of writing and removing all the doubts.

Oh SNAP. Well, as a public service I should let everyone know how artistically retarded I am (games are art, now?).

another uneasy get up this morning, Neon

Specifically, how does 30 seconds of nothing 'build tension?'

But we already stated that's a design choice and not a flaw - if you don't like this approach to shmup, please don't bring the discussion back just for the sake of trolling.

Compile ought to be the most intense games out there if this is the case, yet I don't find myself exactly shaking with adrenaline after playing Blazing Lazers, and even that still beats R type Final cause it doesn't have a ton of game-breaking ships.

1. Gunhed is far from being Compile most frenzy shooter - why don't you have a go at Zanac or Power Strike II and tell me?

2. I thought I explained myself already but once again: the ships useful in the game are the first ones - by the time you completed it two or three times you might have 20 or so. The rest is just skin-change for goofyness. The most powerful ships don't detract anything from the game experience because once you get them (no doubt with the invincibility code) you ALREADY FINISHED IT FOR GOOD YEARS AGO.

Say, wouldn't a good artist make a timeless masterpiece rather than an unlock-everything-and-throw-it-away product? TBH, it seems like you want to overlook RTF's blatant flaws to praise it's 'old sk00l'-ness, but whatever.

To be honest, you're focusing on the pokemon aspect of the package and are forgetting to see the actual game behind it. Final it's not about "gotta catch them all" - you can totally skip that part if you want. Unlocking ships is done just for the sake of doing it, and is not required. if the fact that 101 ships are available ruined the game for you, it's sad - as you've been deceived by the most superficial aspect of it.
Other than that, I posted my opinion about stage design in R-Type Final and I concur with Schatten when he says that the slowdown problem is exaggerated. So, tell me, which blatant flaws are we discussing here?

If you like it, more power to you, sweeping assumptions about those who don't is rather silly however. If it wasn't flawed - not as in OMG I H8 OLDSKOOL but actual flaws - I wouldn't have mentioned it.

In which way it is an "assumption" when one tells you that R-Type Final' stage selection doesn't require performance, which is evidently false (bar the 3.5 exception), and then just admits that he barely played the game?

[Rob]

focusing on the pokemon aspect of the package

They certainly did.

[Turrican]

focusing on the pokemon aspect of the package

They certainly did.

the game is around the length of Delta and other R games, so even if they took time to design a hundred ships, what's the problem? The game's there, and besides occasional slowdown it's polished.

[Neon]

another uneasy get up this morning, Neon

I was being completely serious, you've pissed me off. I'm gonna FUCKING KILL YOU!!!11 And to add insult to injury, put your collection in one of my shoeboxes.

But we already stated that's a design choice and not a flaw - if you don't like this approach to shmup, please don't bring the discussion back just for the sake of trolling.

Sorry, I skimmed over a lot though that still sounds like a load of shit to me - I notice you skipped the 'museum' post

I mean hell, even Windows Media Player or Winamp with a decent visualizer...we do play games for gameplay, right? Plenty better 'atmosphere' from some good house or trance than Final's shitty BGM.

In which way it is an "assumption" when one tells you that R-Type Final' stage selection doesn't require performance, which is evidently false (bar the 3.5 exception), and then just admits that he barely played the game?

No, I wasn't defending Twiddle, I don't really understand his perspective TBH. It just seemed like earlier on you were saying if we didn't like it then we must be x, y, z.

If Rob says I'm full of shite then I am, so what ev.

[Turrican]

Sorry, I skimmed over a lot though that still sounds like a load of shit to me - I notice you skipped the 'museum' post

I mean hell, even Windows Media Player or Winamp with a decent visualizer...we do play games for gameplay, right? Plenty better 'atmosphere' from some good house or trance than Final's shitty BGM.

Oh, you wanted a comment on the museum post. Read on.

I have never been in the "if I wanted a good story, I'd read a book" club. And I don't think anyone honestly is, game designers in first stance. If all we needed in games was gameplay, there wouldn't even be Pong - Chess, poker or Monopoly were enough already.
What's the difference between a shitty written graphic adventure and a well written one? if the gameplay is all that matters, they should be treated as equal.

That's for narrative - for graphics is even more true. Why developers abandoned earlier system to go on newer ones? Why aren't we playing a lot of DOS-coded public domain games, and instead go after the Wii, the 360 and so on? What sold millions of Resident Evil, the atmosphere of the haunted mansion filled by zombies or its pedestrian gameplay?

And so we arrive to the point. What was the need for yet another shooter game in 1987? Irem introduced the Force, an important strategic element in gameplay, yes. But R-Type remained in gamers hearts also for its unique visual style. Anyone who denies this is basically a liar.

Not only that, but the series stayed true to its original approach over the years, always boosting visuals of great atmosphere, and getting tamer on gameplay since passing on consoles. Final stays very true to this' spirit, something that cannot be said entirely for the much more refined Gradius V.

I'm sorry, I cannot explain better than this. If you indeed only look for gameplay in games, then you could probably get into Tetris and just one of the many shmups whose differences are often cosmetic ones. In my opinion however one that tries to reduce videogames to gameplay is missing the point entirely. A good gameplay is the soul of a game, but a soul needs a body too. I am very happy if a game designer comes up with a compelling gameplay, but even the brightest idea could be ruined by the anonymous work of a mediocre graphician... although of course the opposite case is by far the worst one.

In short - atmosphere is important in anything, and that goes for videogames too. It's what draws me into a game in the beginning, before to know how it does play. And no, I don't know what garbage you listen on winamp, but I doubt it could match the atmosphere of a good fight against the Bydo, even if it's Vivaldi.

You said I defend Final for being old-school. I don't think that's the case. The game works for the most part - just like the prequel did. It's a bit slowdown hampered and much later it gives you overpowered ships, but nothing that breaks the game. In terms of overall quality it certainly isn't too far from Delta, but probably not being flat-out better hurt it reputation a lot. (so typical of the immature gamer, always expecting the "bigger, better, faster" product).
Of course it works in its classic way - the "30 seconds of nothing" is a kind of criticism I can't accept as it does apply for III and Delta as well - and, let's face it, it's a bit stupid to buy an R-Type expecting Progear, isn't it?

Focusing on pokemon aspects.

they Certainly did.

If Rob says I'm full of shite then I am, so what ev.

Err, don't worry Neon - I guess with "they" Rob meant Irem.

[Rob]

the game is around the length of Delta and other R games, so even if they took time to design a hundred ships, what's the problem? The game's there, and besides occasional slowdown it's polished.

Since this hasn't been brought up yet, the game was fugly. Yes, atmosphere is key in this series. The preview screenshots looked fantastic, nice backgrounds and lighting effects. The first background did look nice, but then it turns into the most plastic, featureless looking crap. A few bosses I remember looked like beaten up pools of T1000. Having 3 versions of 1 boring stage was just another symptom of quantity over quality.

And the game was lacking.

[Icarus]

Compared to the rest of the series though, Final is severely lacking in both gameplay and style. Even the ancient Delta looks and plays far superior to Final, and if Delta was done in a crisper graphical style similar to Final (or the oft-mentioned-in-this-thread Gradius 5) it would have been the fitting finale to a great series.

Unfortunately Irem decided to cram as much stuff in as possible, instead of maintaining classic balance. Some of the stages and stage orders would have worked quite well without the addition of the seperate ships; and too many stage routes, while nice for variety, confuse things too much. A single, ordered stage route would have been better.

Weapon balance is difficult to maintain with 101 ships, and as such, more powerful ships get the nod over others. (As an RX player in Delta, I prefer the RX-10 Albatross, BTW.) A selection of 10, maybe 15 individual ships could have worked in the game's favour. 101 bodykits with optional paintjobs does not a good game make.

As it stands, Final is more Pokeshmup than BLAST OFF AND STRIKE FOR THE FINAL DECISIVE TIME. As a long-time Irem fan, even I prefer the likes of R-Type 3 and Delta over Final. Final is nice, but isn't the perfect flourish to a great series that most seem to believe.

[Strider77]

Not, really - poor Strider77 just wanted advice about which game to avoid - and by mentioning Final here you did him a disservice.

LOL... no he didn't b/c I all ready have final and like it. I all ready have my own opinions on the games out on PS2... I just like seeing what others are also to be honest.

[Turrican]

Compared to the rest of the series though, Final is severely lacking in both gameplay and style. Even the ancient Delta looks and plays far superior to Final, and if Delta was done in a crisper graphical style similar to Final (or the oft-mentioned-in-this-thread Gradius 5) it would have been the fitting finale to a great series.

Style is a matter of taste - so I won't discuss that, it's perfectly legitimate that you didn't like it. All I can add is that it was very much in the lines of Delta, so it's strange that only Final is considered so. As for "Severely lacking ingameplay":

Unfortunately Irem decided to cram as much stuff in as possible, instead of maintaining classic balance. Some of the stages and stage orders would have worked quite well without the addition of the seperate ships; and too many stage routes, while nice for variety, confuse things too much. A single, ordered stage route would have been better.

There are just three ending courses - it's not so complicated. Five stages in common and then three sets of two final stages. other than that, there's only 3.5 which is meant to be a secret stage. Even the SMS one had one

Weapon balance is difficult to maintain with 101 ships, and as such, more powerful ships get the nod over others. (As an RX player in Delta, I prefer the RX-10 Albatross, BTW.) A selection of 10, maybe 15 individual ships could have worked in the game's favour. 101 bodykits with optional paintjobs does not a good game make.

As it stands, Final is more Pokeshmup than BLAST OFF AND STRIKE FOR THE FINAL DECISIVE TIME.

Yes, but the core bulk of ships that you'll unlock playing normally is quite limited - see it this way: there's roughly the same weapon variety that 3 and Delta had, plus some harmless bodykit repainted. While it's clear that some powerful ships get the nod over the others, it's also true that the key here is to add variety, not to make every ship an essential strategic choice. I still don't see this as a flaw: who can honestly think a hundred roster is designed around balance?

As a long-time Irem fan, even I prefer the likes of R-Type 3 and Delta over Final. Final is nice, but isn't the perfect flourish to a great series that most seem to believe.

I don't think there are so many that believe so - surely noone on this thread, Icarus. However I feel like if gradius had ended with IV after the awesome Gaiden, the outcome would be even more depressing that Delta/Final debates...

oth to you and Rob - thanks, it's good to get some serious criticism. Rob, it's unfortunate that you didn't like the style - personally I enjoyed most stages - some textures have a plastic/liquid feel, true, but that also didn't bother me.