Skill

[Icarus]

Yes, some of us can get the 100% score of some games. A very small amount of games. Is this a proof that everyone is capable of getting a WR? Nahh. First of all I want to see someone get 2 billion at DOJ (BR1? Yum ^__^), then I can start thinking that we are getting closer to the japanese.

There was a thread on here a while back with someone mentioning that there's a DOJ cab in the US, with a 2-ALL score on it. 2-ALLs don't have to come from this forum, you know. (But it would be nice if it happened.)

You could always ask SiK to try it, if he comes out of retirement.

You're speacking hypothetically just like me: your theory seems not supported by facts like mine (given the fact that counter stops are AMAZING stuff).

Then show me the facts FFS. All this conjecture is giving me a headache, and I'd rather be competing and smashing forum records.

About the negativity around: you're right, but who really cares? You cannot force people to believe in themself, you can only show the way

I'm getting tired of "showing the way".
Lately it seems people are unwilling to do the legwork when it comes to devising strategy.

And again: I still can't understand where precisely is the edge between an activity of "only brain" and an activity of "brain+body'.
Don't you feel fatigue when playing shmups for more than a hour?

Unlike physical sports where your whole body is being used, you're using your hands to play shooters. So what? The only fatigue comes from staring at the screen for prolonged periods, and in my career, I'm staring at the screen for hours at a time.

As for your last question, no. ^_-
I can play for five minutes, or five hours, makes no difference to me.

[Galdur]

I don't know what to make of this. I'm usually very determined and optimistic, always telling myself there's no reason I or anyone else can't excel in any given game/activity. It's all in the time and effort you put into it, right?

Well, maybe not. I just think back on my experience with Ikaruga. When I got it I really delved into the competitive side of it. I seriously practiced and trained on individual stages and patterns, and eventually I did learn a good portion of the game. However, after about 400~500 hours (or more...) I have 1CC'd the game a grand total of once. It would take, at times, up to an hour to get a passable score on chapter 1, and by the beginning of chapter 2 my nerves would already be shot. Eventually I gave up on the whole thing in frustration with a score of some 25 million.

Surely, then, it's not determination or effort, or even routine practice. Even after a ridiculous amount of game time my consistency was total crap and not showing any sign of improvement. And I had all the tools at my disposal; mainly replays (oh noes!) and strategy discussions. I guess we're not all capable of rising to the top after all, huh. =/

[Pirate1019]

....and I guess having the reflexes of a 15-yr old helps a bit...

Haha, I can tell you from personal experience that a 15 year olds reflexes are far from perfect, although better than some peoples.

Level grind a game hard enough and the patterns will go into recessive memory and you will get it. I can never do this but, do as I say not as I do.

[Venom]

Surely, then, it's not determination or effort, or even routine practice. Even after a ridiculous amount of game time my consistency was total crap and not showing any sign of improvement. And I had all the tools at my disposal; mainly replays (oh noes!) and strategy discussions. I guess we're not all capable of rising to the top after all, huh. =/

Simply practicing a lot or regularly won't get you there. You need to think and understand how the game works and how to overcome it. If you don't have a method to your practice it's unlikely to build towards something great. SiK's approach was one that I liked, you master the levels in order. Stage 1, then 1+2, then 1+2+3 until you have the complete run and all parts have been optimized. At certain times in my play I was more along the lines of a quick and dirty completion then optimize. Find what works for you. Know yourself, know your enemy, Art of War style.

[BR1]

The only thing that amazes me is the negativity that goes around. I see a lot of comments in score threads I post in (and many more I haven't posted in) along the lines of "I'll put up a score, but its nothing like yours", or "I'll never reach that score, ever". And I've always said in reply: "go for it, you never know unless you try".

I completely agree with you!
Everybody can improve so much just practicing!
And more, so much people just give up without even trying.

A wise man once said:

About the negativity around: you're right, but who really cares? You cannot force people to believe in themself, you can only show the way

Rubbish. There are far more variables in effect when playing basketball - fatigue, upper and lower body strength, positioning, technique and so on.

It was just an example.
Anyway positioning, fatigue, strenght, coordination are required even in shmups.
And about concentration and fatigue, again, every neurology will tell you that focusing so much for a long time definitely tires you out.

The only thing that repetition in a shootemup provides is the ability to concentrate on something else while you are subconsciously recalling a pattern.

That's a very interesting point. It surely happens that repeting something you've done many times doesn't requires much concentration. And more: sometimes is a very good way to relax and let the mind be free. It happens so much times even to me when I play DDP.
BUT (as you said) it may happen just when you recall an easy pattern you've done lots and lots of times. Nobody on earth can just "repeat slavishly" a determined pattern against True Aki, simply because there're too much bullets.

But I think you agree with us in the end when you say: " You can't repeat a pattern to the millisecond, but then again, you don't have to."
So humans DO have limits. That's for sure and we all know that.

Recall the general plan, and alter to fit the situation.

That's definitely the point!
But talking phisically and psychologically not everybody has the same reaction time, so we aren't equally talented in shmups (and in every other discipline)!

Again: we just don'y have to be afraid to admit that!

[LUNardei]

You could always ask SiK to try it, if he comes out of retirement.

He is playing on Marp

Then show me the facts FFS. All this conjecture is giving me a headache, and I'd rather be competing and smashing forum records.

Facts? To me every maniac WR is a fact that makes me think: "Wait, there's something we're missing here...". But to you this seems not important, so I don't know what to add, really. Or better, I can add that you cannot show me maniac WRs from other places than asia. But it's not important. I can say this again: my opinion is based on conjectures just like your, this seems pretty clear.

[Randorama]

You could always ask SiK to try it, if he comes out of retirement.

He is playing on Marp

Then show me the facts FFS. All this conjecture is giving me a headache, and I'd rather be competing and smashing forum records.

Facts? To me every maniac WR is a fact that makes me think: "Wait, there's something we're missing here...". But to you this seems not important, so I don't know what to add, really. Or better, I can add that you cannot show me maniac WRs from other places than asia. But it's not important. I can say this again: my opinion is based on conjectures just like your, this seems pretty clear.

Be careful though: on a good chunk of cases, we don't know all the scoring occasions and tecniques. In the cases we do, that's another issue.
In general though, even a small innate advantage may be significant: japanese or not, someone with a better hand-eye coordination skill may have 'just' an advantage of say, 3-4% in learning speed and other stuff (coordination, reflexes, etc.).

Let's say that it directly becomes an advantage in score: If you do 100M, he can do 105M, which is not small if seen "on paper" (an analogy: on a 100 mts. run, 4% slower than the world record is not even good enough to qualify for most national championships).

At any case, it would much more polite if you don't dis other people's score in the necessary worshipping of japanese players...

[Kaiser]

To have better skill just play shmups every time you're playing shmup skill increases

[Randorama]

Oh, and now i know the truth about Icarus: he doesn't consume any energies (Adenosintriphosphate?) from intellectual activity and neurons working. It must the consequences of him inventing the perpetual motion engine together with Godot

And this is noob bashing: people, if you wonder why your lack of method gets you nowhere, i wonder, have you skipped elementary school or what? The "omg i have played hundreds of hours and went nowhere, btw why i die if i get hit?" argument is really discouraging!

[Icarus]

Oh, and now i know the truth about Icarus: he doesn't consume any energies (Adenosintriphosphate?) from intellectual activity and neurons working. It must be the 10+ cups of milky coffee or tea (with two and a half sugars each cup) consumed over an 18 hour period, with about 4 hours sleep per day, and working at a computer for the majority of his daily life. Caffiene, sleep deprivation and interaction design study FTW.

Fix'd for great justice. ^_-

Adeno-wot?

Facts? To me every maniac WR is a fact that makes me think: "Wait, there's something we're missing here...". But to you this seems not important, so I don't know what to add, really. Or better, I can add that you cannot show me maniac WRs from other places than asia. But it's not important. I can say this again: my opinion is based on conjectures just like your, this seems pretty clear.

For every ten WR-class players, there are several million 70-to-90% of WR players out there. Thats like... what? 0.1% of the total active player base represented by WR-class players? Seriously.

Also have you considered that Arcadia and Gamest only kept records of WR scores achieved in Japan? Have you not thought that there might be players unknown to the Japanese press that have WR-beating scores? The possibility is there, its foolish to discount it.

Perhaps it would be better not to look at WRs, but at the achievements of the higher-class players, the 70-90% scorers that don't get documented by the gaming press. This hero worship of near-household names such as TAC, LAOS and SWY seems to be having a negative effect on people ("ZOMG! UNPOSSIBLE SKOR!"), almost to the point that our own excellent achievements are getting slated because they aren't WR-level scores.

[BR1]

Oh, and you're still convinced that all japanese population is automatically better in anything remotely related to hand-eye coordination?

Nobody EVER told that.
There're A LOT of japanese players that definitely SUCK.
Neurology's studies just give a general statistical indication. Nobody ever said that if you're Japanese you'll automatically score a Gazzillion in every shooter, just like nobody will never say that if you're finnish you MUST be blonde with blue eyes. Genetics just says it's statistically more probable, nothing more nothing less.

If so, see above. And again, please don't dis other people's scores, thanks.

Again, nobody here disrespected other player's scores: LUN's idea was simply to compare OUR scores with Japanese huge scores.

[zlk]

I think the problem in the west is the lack of arcades where people can go and play. In Japan, a player can go to an arcade, see good players play, and exchange tactics. There is also a psychological effect of seeing someone do something live over and over. "If that guy can do that, so can I."

There is also something to be said about work ethic. How many people here are willing to play the same game, 3hours a day, for at least 8 months, just to get a good score?

[BR1]

Also have you considered that Arcadia and Gamest only kept records of WR scores achieved in Japan? Have you not thought that there might be players unknown to the Japanese press that have WR-beating scores? The possibility is there, its foolish to discount it.

Of course it could be!

Uhm... Probably in this japanese debate there's a huge misunderstanding.
We NEVER SAID ONLY japanese can achieve WRs, or EVERY japanese JUST BECAUSE he's japanese is a better player than ANY other in the world.
I completely agree with you: it's completely foolish to think things like that.
We just think: In Japan there're the best players. As we think: in the USA there're the best Basketball players.
But this doesn't mean that only US guys can be NBA champions!

Perhaps it would be better not to look at WRs, but at the achievements of the higher-class players, the 70-90% scorers that don't get documented by the gaming press. This hero worship of near-household names such as TAC, LAOS and SWY seems to be having a negative effect on people ("ZOMG! UNPOSSIBLE SKOR!"), almost to the point that our own excellent achievements are getting slated because they aren't WR-level scores.

We NEVER thought to give up and we've NEVER felt upset because of the WRs: as a matter of fact the italian community is one of the most shmups addicted and active!

ps. Now in Italy is very late and I'm going to bed, but tomorrow I'm going to explain again and better our point of view about Japanese \ genetics \ love \ life \ Hypers \ Pizza Pepperoni \ Jao.

[Mills]

All ive got to say on this topic is "Action Speaks Louder than Words".

[Twiddle]

All ive got to say on this topic is "Action Speaks Louder than Words".

any new RF1 scores

[LUNardei]

And btw, welcome Mills ^__^
Your achievements are simply inspiring!

[Plasmo]

WELCOME MILLS!

[Kaiser]

Welcome mills enjoy your stay here ^_^

[Nemo]

I don't think people are getting the point about innate ability, it has nothing to do with what race you are or where you're born, so it's certainly not about idolizing Japanese players or having a "woe is me I'm Western" attitude. Look at Basketball, a decade ago the US Dream Teams destroyed their international competition without even breaking a sweat, but due the globalization of the sport which cultivated the skill that existed, the playing field is essentially even now. Were these international players with talent suddenly grown in some factory in the past few years, of course not. Does any Joe Blow have the ability to be a good basketball player, of course not. It's about taking innate ability and putting it in an environment which can grow and thrive.

Of course since shooters are non-changing things the misconception is that time spent practicing is the only important factor and overcomes all, yet there is an eventual wall for everyone that can't be overcome due to their ability level (except in theory the absolute perfect game, which I've yet to see in any shooter). WRs aren't absolute, so even for these WR holders there is a greater even they haven't achieved.

[Klatrymadon]

I post in (and many more I haven't posted in) along the lines of "I'll put up a score, but its nothing like yours"

In my case, that attitude is borne of a love for shooters that doesn't encompass aggressive competition, rather than a simple negativity or a lack of skill or 'hardcore' interest.

[jpj]

ah, nature vs nurture argument....... we're so old.........

p.s. BBH has a nice score on shock troopers!

[Mills]

All ive got to say on this topic is "Action Speaks Louder than Words".

any new RF1 scores

Er, no. the reason i cant exceed my high score is because i only knew 20-30% of the hidden bonus secrets on RaidenFighters (excluding DESTROYED AT A TIME and QUICK SHOT bonus). im still no wiser of all the hidden bouuses on RF, RF2, RFJet & RF Revolutions, which i havent seen in any london arcade sites or console formats. Del mentioned to me ages ago that there is web-link which has detailed info to the hidden stuff on RF. so unless someone forwards that info, im focusing my time on RAIDEN3.

[Twiddle]

All ive got to say on this topic is "Action Speaks Louder than Words".

any new RF1 scores

Er, no. the reason i cant exceed my high score is because i only knew 20-30% of the hidden bonus secrets on RaidenFighters (excluding DESTROYED AT A TIME and QUICK SHOT bonus). im still no wiser of all the hidden bouuses on RF, RF2, RFJet & RF Revolutions, which i havent seen in any london arcade sites or console formats. Del mentioned to me ages ago that there is web-link which has detailed info to the hidden stuff on RF. so unless someone forwards that info, im focusing my time on RAIDEN3.

Here's a complete list of secrets for the first game:

http://rf-emporium.net/rf1/stage1.htm

[Mills]

any new RF1 scores

Er, no. the reason i cant exceed my high score is because i only knew 20-30% of the hidden bonus secrets on RaidenFighters (excluding DESTROYED AT A TIME and QUICK SHOT bonus). im still no wiser of all the hidden bouuses on RF, RF2, RFJet & RF Revolutions, which i havent seen in any london arcade sites or console formats. Del mentioned to me ages ago that there is web-link which has detailed info to the hidden stuff on RF. so unless someone forwards that info, im focusing my time on RAIDEN3.

Here's a complete list of secrets for the first game:

http://rf-emporium.net/rf1/stage1.htm

thanks. that link was most informative, esspecially with the location of those Micluses on the arctic and final stage. top man.

[Mills]

Welcome mills enjoy your stay here ^_^

thanks. ill try.

[Mills]

And btw, welcome Mills ^__^
Your achievements are simply inspiring!

thanks. i simply try my best and expect nothing more.

[Icarus]

Welcome, Mills!
Why am I expecting to be bumped down a place in a couple of scorethreads now? ^_-

[landshark]

Welcome, Mills!
Why am I expecting to be bumped down a place in a couple of scorethreads now? ^_-

sweet.

[Icarus]

Welcome, Mills!
Why am I expecting to be bumped down a place in a couple of scorethreads now? ^_-

sweet.

Nah, its cool. Just gives me an incentive to work harder. ^_-

HERE COMES A NEW CHALLENGER!

[Pirate1019]

Beside that, the whole discussion is ok as long as the overall tone is not too serious. The topic itself, though, is not really good for the kind of casual talking done in a forum like this. World's too full of " i have third grade/lack proper knowledge and comprehension of the issue BUT i still want to vent my wacky ideas", and they all seem to pest the interweb

Now, i don't know jack about sailing but i still think that...

I like to think I can achieve thinking above the mental capacity of a third grader...or most kids my age. But I do have to agree with you. Although this forum is pretty good about hiding from that kind of riff-raff.

I have finally decided that ability in shmups is a little of both sides of the argument. Everybody is born with natural talents, not neccesarily connected with shmups (like Nemo said), and as long as they are put in an enviroment where they are tried and tested, they will get better. (Also like Nemo said.) Until they hit the preverbial 'ceiling', and cannot get any better because of they got the low roll in the gene pool.

Hell, I won't explain any further because I can simply say that I agree with Nemo.