All the crappy PS2 shooters (or we hate R-Type Final thread)

[Ghegs]

Just make sure you stay away from Gunbird 1&2, which is an absolutely piss-poor port

Bull. Aside from the half-a-second-or-so loading time before the bosses in GB2, the ports are solid.

[professor ganson]

Yeah, the PS2 port is a bit different from the DC one, which is supposed to be near arcade-perfect. But I find that I prefer the PS2 port overall. And the port of Gunbird 1 on the PS2 pack looks great compared to the Saturn port.

[Twiddle]

The only sin R-Type Final ever committed is to be a console shmup in an age when the only surviving fans only enjoy arcade stuff.

gradius v

[Turrican]

The only sin R-Type Final ever committed is to be a console shmup in an age when the only surviving fans only enjoy arcade stuff.

gradius v

That one avoided the same fate because it's Treasure, and because it injected quite some manic sections in the old Gradius formula.

[Twiddle]

Not exactly. It has that arcade feel while still retaining the difficulty of a console shooter in the first loop.

[Turrican]

Not exactly. It has that arcade feel while still retaining the difficulty of a console shooter in the first loop.

Thus you agree with me that Gradius V might also have been released in the arcades (with little adjustment), while the same could never be said for R-Type Final.

So my initial statement is true: Final' sin is to have console feel in an age where just I and Shocky apparently care

Edit: favorite ship: TX-T Eclipse

[jpolz]

I think Gigawing Generations was a huge disappointment. Compared to Gigawing 2, eveything seemed to be a step backwards. The graphics were bland and uninspired. The music was generic. 30fps on the PS2 port is unforgivavle.

The gameplay was intact, but gameplay alone can't draw you in.

[al138]

Absolutely! That's most accurate post yet!

But who cares?!? Shoot, I'll throw my hat in the ring. Silpheed tops my list for poor shooters on the PS2. Its not absolutely intolerable, but it certainly isn't great fun. Thank goodness I only played $5 for it...

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Not exactly. It has that arcade feel while still retaining the difficulty of a console shooter in the first loop.

Thus you agree with me that Gradius V might also have been released in the arcades (with little adjustment), while the same could never be said for R-Type Final.

So my initial statement is true: Final' sin is to have console feel in an age where just I and Shocky apparently care

Edit: favorite ship: TX-T Eclipse

There's nothing wrong about the "console feel" in a shmup. The implementation is what counts. R-Type Final isn't good just because it isn't a good game to begin with.

[Rob]

So my initial statement is true: Final' sin is to have console feel in an age where just I and Shocky apparently care

What UFO said. It was just hilariously focused on quantity of ships instead of solid level design. There's no reason this should've been so inferior to Delta. Definitely the worst PS2 shooter I've played.

The gameplay was intact, but gameplay alone can't draw you in.

Did for me. Of course it didn't live up to GW fan hopes. If it's their last shooter it would be a little disappointing, but much better than Night Raid.

[Neon]

Console "feel?" LOL!

I guess that translates to having a Compile feel, in which case I'd agree. Lots of those multiple-second sections of sitting there and not doing anything.
Really not much game there for those who want to do more than beat it a million times to unlock all the shit.

[Turrican]

There's nothing wrong about the "console feel" in a shmup. The implementation is what counts. R-Type Final isn't good just because it isn't a good game to begin with.

What UFO said. It was just hilariously focused on quantity of ships instead of solid level design. There's no reason this should've been so inferior to Delta. Definitely the worst PS2 shooter I've played.

No, I disagree - the many ships were there, but they didn't "detract" anything from level design. Let's see: stage 2 comes in five slightly different versions, from totally submerged to dried - and it's not just cosmetic change. Same for the ending part - while Delta had three different endings, the game course was always the same. Here you get three very different end stages. In the same seven stage length, you get a much more varied course.
Not to mention the hidden stage 3.5, accessible with one specific ship...

I too consider Delta to be more focused and accomplished, but Final is far from being a failure. Maybe it's regretful as this was meant to be the grand finale, but on the other hand it would be silly to expect that every new installment of a series is automatically better than the previous one, wouldn't it? And Delta set the bar very high.

Most badmouthed PS2 shmup.

p.s. stay away if all you look for in a game is bullet patterns to dodge. The game's richness is wasted for you.

[Neon]

Funny how easily you can trigger very predictable reactions when saying certain things about certain games. Am I right, BulletMagnet?

Sacred cows make the tastiest cheeseburger. - Abbie Hoffman

[Turrican]

Really not much game there for those who want to do more than beat it a million times to unlock all the shit.

Oh, you 1lifed R-Typer difficulty I see. My compliments!

[Wanderer]

Well, Silpheed was pretty longish and and bland. It`s hard to believe it was developed by Treasure. It`s not really a turd, just really boring.

Coulda sworn Game Arts made the game and Treasure did the sound or whatever. Proof?

The Treasure logo is plastered on the front cover of the US Silpheed PS2 release converted by Working Design. Inside the manual, in the translation notes section, it states:

"Game Arts decided to work with the well-respected maestros of shooter mayhem at Treasure to re-craft their classic. Treasure was responsible for many of the most important gaming milestones of the 90's, and Slipheed: The Lost Planet was their first foot into the new millennium of gaming. By all accounts, Silpheed: The Lost Planet realized their updated goals by bringing fast action, huge bosses, tough gameplay, and incredible visuals to a whole new audience on the Playstation 2 in Japan"

What a silly statement in hindsight.

PS2 shooters that were a disappointment:

Slipheed: Looked real good for its time but ultimately was a borefest. Things picked on the last stage (I would like to think Treasure did most of this level) but by then it was too late to save the game.

Stag XII: I praised this game when it came out due to the 2d sprites and solid gameplay. Lost interest fast as I ultimately preferred reflecting, gem/ingot collecting & bee chaining over wiggling.

Giga Wing Generation: Actually a fun game with great design and solid gameplay. As everyone stated, 30 FPS, no Tate, & weird resolution downgrades this port significantly.

Chaos Field: Ok, I haven't played the PS2 port but if its the same as the dreamcast port then it gets my crappy shooter vote. Give me my popcorn enemies!

[Wanderer]

Edit: Oops double post

[Neon]

Really not much game there for those who want to do more than beat it a million times to unlock all the shit.

Oh, you 1lifed R-Typer difficulty I see. My compliments!

Why would you spend that much time with R type final?

[Turrican]

Really not much game there for those who want to do more than beat it a million times to unlock all the shit.

Oh, you 1lifed R-Typer difficulty I see. My compliments!

Why would you spend that much time with R type final?

haha, nice try, clever of you. So you basically are just saying that u dun like it.

[Strider77]

He probably spent that much time with R Type final b/c he enjoyed it?? Duh

I think a better question is why any one would spend that much time with "Mobile Light Force"

[Twiddle]

Oh, you 1lifed R-Typer difficulty I see. My compliments!

Rank changes don't magically fix flaws in level design, such as parts where literally nothing happens for 30 seconds.

p.s. stay away if all you look for in a game is bullet patterns to dodge. The game's richness is wasted for you.

so according to you a game comprises of only:

- bullet patterns
- 100+ ships, 95% either useless or grossly overpowered
- different level paths accessed in means completely irrelevant to performance
- last score digit morphing at random

when there are:

- scoring systems that extend a game's challenge beyond just your survival (some even adjusting the difficulty to how aggressively you score, such as THE, as to allow players of all skill levels to be challenged equally without changing the initial difficulty)
- stage paths accessed in means directly relevant to the player's performance (Raiden Fighters Jet, Psyvariar, Border Down, Touhou 8, conditional second loops, conditional extra final stage, R-Type Delta (oh))
- games where the ship selection influences whether you score higher or have an easier time clearing the game (but not both) in a non-game-breaking manner (inwhich the ship is too powerful or too weak) (ESPRaDe, R-Type Delta (ooh!), Dangun Feveron, all 3 Shikigami no Shiro games)
- levels logically designed around any number of the above three points

[Turrican]

Oh, you 1lifed R-Typer difficulty I see. My compliments!

Rank changes don't magically fix flaws in level design, such as parts where literally nothing happens for 30 seconds.

You see that as a flaw, which says a lot about which kind of shmup experience you have in mind. Sure, if the main goal is to suck quarters from your pocket, 30 seconds of "nothing" is a terrible flaw - never mind if it builds up on atmosphere or emphasize a given moment. But it makes sense - when the artistic value of a shmup is dull, it's better to give zero moments of pause to the gamer.

The remaining part of your post needs a bit of punctuation, and I didn't understand it entirely. Conditional extra final stage in Delta?

edit:

- scoring systems that extend a game's challenge beyond just your survival

So what? They must be all like this, otherwise are junk? You are criticizing design choices as if they were flaws by default, LOL

- stage paths accessed in means directly relevant to the player's performance

So what? Again, every game that lets you choose a stage without requiring performance is shit? Darius series shit then, Thunderforce shit.

- games where the ship selection influences whether you score higher or have an easier time clearing the game (but not both) in a non-game-breaking manner

Except you didn't dimostrate yet that Final's ships break the game. For the most part your selection is limited, and very powerful ships are unlocked until a lot of time.

- levels logically designed around any number of the above three points

All I get is that Irem designed a game that don't suit your tastes. Luckily you are not Kim Jong-il and I'm not one of your citizens.

[Twiddle]

Oh, you 1lifed R-Typer difficulty I see. My compliments!

Rank changes don't magically fix flaws in level design, such as parts where literally nothing happens for 30 seconds.

You see that as a flaw, which says a lot about which kind of shmup experience you have in mind. Sure, if the main goal is to suck quarters from your pocket, 30 seconds of "nothing" is a terrible flaw - never mind if it builds up on atmosphere or emphasize a given moment. But it makes sense - when the artistic value of a shmup is dull, it's better to give zero moments of pause to the gamer.

The remaining part of your post needs a bit of punctuation, and I didn't understand it entirely. Conditional extra final stage in Delta?

I see you're one of those people who believe gameplay and artistic value are mutually exclusive. Apparently there's no artistic value in finding the best buzz routine in a stage of Psyvariar 2, and the various scoring mechanisms in Battle Garegga and Raiden Fighters are just there to keep attention away from how "ugly" the games really are.

Go back to playing Okami and Shadow of the Colossus.

PS: That subset was ordered improperly, but you said Delta had a changing final stage, so I assumed there were performance-related conditions of accessing it as all replays I've seen only show one final stage.

[Turrican]

I see you're one of those people who believe gameplay and artistic value are mutually exclusive. Apparently there's no artistic value in finding the best buzz routine in a stage of Psyvariar 2, and the various scoring mechanisms in Battle Garegga and Raiden Fighters are just there to keep attention away from how "ugly" the games really are.

Except I never said anything about the games you mention. I was defending R-Type Final from the accuse of being mediocre. And no, I don't see why excellent gameplay and artistic value should exclude each other. Really, now

Go back to playing Okami and Shadow of the Colossus.

Played Colossus and very much liked it; currently in the hope that Capcom will bring Okami here in the EU as it already excite me as one of PS2's best games. Should I leave this board because I like good games? another big LOL.

PS: That subset was ordered improperly, but you said Delta had a changing final stage, so I assumed there were performance-related conditions of accessing it as all replays I've seen only show one final stage.

Ah ah, learn to read - I said that Delta has different endings. But they depend just on the ship you select. On the other hand Final has different ending routes (the last two stages, namely) - and despite what you say, selecting a route instead of another require an amount of skill, as you must kill stage5 boss in a certain way...

What must I think?, that you didn't even care to check these games? You must have stopped playing at the first 30 seconds of nothing. Truly unbearable.

[Twiddle]

So what? Again, every game that lets you choose a stage without requiring performance is shit? Darius series shit then, Thunderforce shit.

Darius lets you choose harder stages (in some games it's the higher path, some it's the lower, and the hardest two stages are the very last top and the very last bottom stages) but again, they're performance related because if you aren't good you wouldn't live for very long in those harder stages.

Except you didn't dimostrate yet that Final's ships break the game. For the most part your selection is limited, and very powerful ships are unlocked until a lot of time.

They're accessible, therefore they have to be counted, period, as a players have every right to use what is available and what becomes available to them(a common practice in arcade game players), which apparently is an utter sin to most console game players who limit themselves for no apparent reason.

All I get is that Irem designed a game that don't suit your tastes. Luckily you are not Kim Jong-il and I'm not one of your citizens.

Shmups are no longer the console flavor of the month and haven't been for over fifteen years, therefore they have to keep the faithful ultra-technical players (such as everyone who's replied to you) who've kept the genre on life support, instead of the attention of the console (or PC) gamer flavor-of-the-month types whose trends lie in games that require little effort and investment to play, such as World of Warcraft or Halo 2 multiplayer. A game that appeals to these gamers isn't going to last very long unless it's part of the trend.

Ah ah, learn to read - I said that Delta has different endings. But they depend just on the ship you select. On the other hand Final has different ending routes (the last two stages, namely)

My bad.

- and despite what you say, selecting a route instead of another require an amount of skill, as you must kill stage5 boss in a certain way...

One example out of several.

What must I think?, that you didn't even care to check these games? You must have stopped playing at the first 30 seconds of nothing. Truly unbearable.

On the first, I think it's because I don't actually have R-Type Delta, but assume away.

On R-Type Final, does it help to tell you that I lost all interest in playing it the day Gradius V came out? It may not be how a console game should be designed (after all it was originally designed for the Konami PS2-based arcade hardware then scrapped) but nevertheless it is a more interesting game to play without needing to resort to unlocking hundreds of ships or just sending you to a different stage because you're using a special ship.

[Turrican]

Darius lets you choose harder stages (in some games it's the higher path, some it's the lower, and the hardest two stages are the very last top and the very last bottom stages) but again, they're performance related because if you aren't good you wouldn't live for very long in those harder stages.

Ah ah, this one was your lowest yet.

Shmups are no longer the console flavor of the month and haven't been for over fifteen years, therefore they have to keep the faithful ultra-technical players, (such as everyone who's replied to you) who've kept the genre on life support, instead of the attention of the console gamer flavor-of-the-month types whose trends lie in games that require little effort and investment to play, such as World of Warcraft.

Fine, so you are the savior of the genre, while I'm the anti-christ whore who likes pretty graphics and is ready to switch sides and play WoW instead of our beloved shmups. Wow, it must feel good to be on the pure side of the Good. If I were you I'd immediately ask to mods to ban me, I'm dangerous.

On R-Type Final, does it help to tell you that I lost all interest in playing it the day Gradius V came out?

I can perfectly understand that. Gradius V is a better game than R-Type Final on almost every level. ^_^

without needing to resort to unlocking hundreds of ships or just sending you to a different stage because you're using a special ship.

geez, would all of you try for a second to forget the 101 ships, please? This huge number has fooled many - but beyond the anal collectibles part, there's a game, you know! That means you too, BulletMagnet

[Twiddle]

Ah ah, this one was your lowest yet.

Why? Darius has you preview the stage and then sadistically end your credit, as opposed Psyvariar or RFJ going "you're not worthy" and sending you to the lower grade stage. Two methods performing the same thing (splitting players of different skill levels into paths) just Darius is an asshole about it.

I've yet to find a non-console Darius that was structured in the manner where the difficulty level between stage paths is completely random.

Fine, so you are the savior of the genre, while I'm the anti-christ whore who likes pretty graphics and is ready to switch sides and play WoW instead of our beloved shmups. Wow, it must feel good to be on the pure side of the Good. If I were you I'd immediately ask to mods to ban me, I'm dangerous.

You're missing my point. You like shooters that play like console games, fine. Don't expect that to amuse anyone for more than a month in these times, where most of the kind of players who play games structured like R-Type Final and GTA change their favorite games in a whim while the players who truly enjoyed these games either get left behind, left to abuse these games out of any challenge they have left (R-Type I and II have world record holders increasing their score by only thousands each update) or modify them if possible to extend the life of their games (Multi Theft Auto).

There's a reason why games like Dodonpachi and Half-Life (the engine itself in that case) get played for years and R-Type Final and Super Aleste don't.

[Turrican]

You're missing my point. You like shooters that play like console games, fine. Don't expect that to amuse anyone for more than a month in these times, where most of the kind of players who play games structured like R-Type Final and GTA change their favorite games in a whim while the players who truly enjoyed these games either get left behind, left to abuse these games out of any challenge they have left (R-Type I and II have world record holders increasing their score by only thousands each update) or modify them if possible to extend the life of their games (Multi Theft Auto).

There's a reason why games like Dodonpachi and Half-Life (the engine itself in that case) get played for years and R-Type Final and Super Aleste don't.

Of course there's a reason. And that's because they are different. Just like Tetris gets played for years, and Monkey Island once or twice in a lifetime. The key word is different, not worse or bad. And all I was saying is that R-Type Final has this "console feel" and is not built for a long-lasting scoring-geared appeal. This doesn't equate to being bad.

The problem is that you could have played the game for a month, 1lifed it at R-Typer, while yawning all the time, then say: "oh, my, what a bore, I get back to my Raiden Fighters" - instead you didn't even bother, you watched replays. Come on...

In other words:

You like shooters that play like console games, fine. Don't expect that to amuse anyone for more than a month in these times

I don't expect that, I'm not a fool - I know I'm a minority. I'd just be pleased if you, you know, could ignore shmups you don't like without constantly call them absolute crap.

[Twiddle]

The problem is that you could have played the game for a month, 1lifed it at R-Typer, while yawning all the time, then say: "oh, my, what a bore, I get back to my Raiden Fighters" - instead you didn't even bother, you watched replays. Come on...

If the game wasn't entertaining enough on even R-Typer I can't see how you expect me to beat a game I didn't end up liking.

Also, there are no full game replays of R-Type Final that I have seen when I last checked (there may be now), but there are replays of Delta.

I don't expect that, I'm not a fool - I know I'm a minority. I'd just be pleased if you, you know, could ignore shmups you don't like without constantly call them absolute crap.

That kind of happens to be the point of this thread. Calling games shit.

[Turrican]

If the game wasn't entertaining enough on even R-Typer I can't see how you expect me to beat a game I didn't end up liking.

Also, there are no full game replays of R-Type Final that I have seen when I last checked (there may be now), but there are replays of Delta.

Fine, it doesn't entertain you so you don't play it. Perfectly fine. But then why do you talk about it on boards? Without knowing it too much, too?

That kind of happens to be the point of this thread. Calling games shit.

Right, and Final should have stayed out of this from the beginning, as it doesn't belong here, imho. ^__^

p.s. wonders when they'll lock this thread.

[Twiddle]

Fine, it doesn't entertain you so you don't play it. Perfectly fine. But then why do you talk about it on boards? Without knowing it too much, too?

I'm not sure how you continue to expect people to care or know about much of what they've come to not enjoy. A few things can put people off from doing so.