Shooting Game Tournament 2006

[DJ Incompetent]

So for this "people not playing" problem. Ya can't really ban people for future years 'cause that just riles up others and it could lead to future disruptions and a lot of general bitching. On the flipside, more dedicated players don't want coattail-riders takin up space.

A solution:

After this contest has completely ended, may I propose something called a "Cautioning." People who don't play at all (or even 1 week total*) are subjected to being cautioned, more like a name highlighted in yellow or something.

For next year, the only difference between a Cautioned participant who wants to sign up again and a regular un-cautioned participant is that a regular participant will get priority in requested team placement over a Cautioned participant. So basically, when a certain team is maxed out on players and a new regular participant requests to be on that same certain team, then the last Cautioned player to join that team would be removed and redistributed to another team with a lacking number of players.
To safeguard against teams with too many Cautioned players, a minimum of 4* regular participants would be required in-addition to the 5-players-total rule for their team to be acknowledged.


An example in-motion:
In 2007, a new team calling themselves Teh Fanboyz is formed with the following members:
listed in order of request to join

ParodiusFruit
Raiden4DXFightersJet
Psikcho
raizingJUNKIE
DDPforever!!1
Cavefan

This team is legit because it has 4 regular participants. The two players in yellow were people who signed up for STGT 06 that didn't play (or only submitted a score for one week*). Every player who happened to request being on this team was granted the request. Even the Cautioned players. This is because the team still had openings. In this case, nothing bad happened to the existing Cautioned players, nor were they penilized, labeled, or ridiculed for any reason. This was because all 7 slots were not filled.

Take another example:

member jpjpj just signed up on the shmups.com forums. He wants to join newly-formed Team Clusterfuck.

But Team Clusterfuck is already maxed out at 7 players:
listed in order of request to join

CarpalTunnel
uninspiredusername
zakkkk
ThunderForceGuardian
HeyPoorPlayer!!|
GameFAQsAlphaMale
FPSTG

In this case, jpjpj would be added to Team Clusterfuck and GameFAQsAlphaMale, the last Cautioned member to join would be moved to another team with an unmaxed listing of players. Nothing bad would happen to the guy. He just gets shuffled around to another team so proven players or untested players can enlist where they choose.


Again, players who would be highlighted as "Cautioned" would get the same chances to participate and play games as any other player. The only difference is that these Cautioned players, who have shown they didn't play in 06 will not be able to stop other members who have not (intentionally or unintentionally) coat-tailed a team from picking the team they want to be in.

And for 08, if a Cautioned player had indeed participated in at least 2 weeks* (given we stay at 6) for STGT 07, the Cautioned status would be removed.

*exact number or stipulation for future subject to discussion




Yay or nay?

[Edge]

Sounds like a good idea, DJ Incompetent.

I'll join the discussion about it after the week have finished though.

[mulletgeezer]

i have a little idea for future contests; i haven't thought it through so it might be a bad idea but here it is:

players who wish to play every week would join teams of like-minded players who want to play as a team. players who might not be able to play in the majority of weeks due to emulation problems/future commitments etc would make this fact known and we'd try to have no more than 1 of this type of player on each team. Players who don't intend to play every week, or who aren't willing to put in the effort to play games they dislike could join a "casual" team with other like-minded players, or maybe we wouldn't force them to join a team at all and they could play solo. This would give this kind of player the chance to compete at the games they like but with no consequences for anyone if they didn't play in the other weeks, and hopefully we'd end up with a decent number of competitive teams who are willing to put the effort in to make a great contest. This might work, as long as we don't end up with a high proportion of players wanting to go solo/casual?

[Pirate1019]

Lots of ideas are being thrown around and I'm sure that something will be decided upon in a year's time. Although I have to wonder...How many people are actually dropping out and not submitting scores because they hate the game of the week? Buck up and take it. I'm not even on a team and I have been playing Star Force just to compare scores (Although my scores pale in actual comparison).

Anyway...I'm looking foreward to next year's competition, if there is one.

[sven666]

...How many people are actually dropping out and not submitting scores because they hate the game of the week? Buck up and take it. I'm not even on a team and I have been playing Star Force just to compare scores .

thats the spirit!

people not participating because they cant be arsed get theirs in the brackets as suckass shmups players .
id have no problem with a ban from future contests, i dont think there would be a sudden migration of fake users for the next competition, but who cares, thisyears comp is only halfway thru ffs!!! (talk about taking things in advance )

[DEL]

DJ Incompetent -

Any use for next week?

[DJ Incompetent]

I sense a pattern. Nice find DEL. The good times shall continue.



A poll appears!

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=10752
Psikyo Week

[DEL]

Now that Herr Schatten's 'Show Yourself' avatar week has been and gone, I notice that a certain Tournament Leader is remaining mysterious...

I hereby request that a certain 5ft 9" Oriental origin feathered friend reveals a photo (even if its a 'Guess who's me in a crowd shot').



Regs, DEL

[DJ Incompetent]

I don't think he's gonna do it, man.

That's too bad..


--------------------------------

Now, the current problem is Hidden Gem Week turning into Retro Week 2. As it's going with our nominating, we're on our way to seeing this again:

Yeah, I was expecting a lot of controversy about the retro week.

But seriously there were more than 20 different votes for it and everyone is confident about his favorite vote. Though you can't expect that your favorite choice will be on the poll. And the retro week was supposed to be pre 1985 stuff. So all those recommendations from the 90s (There where a lot of these) don't fit into this week.

No matter what games are on the poll there will always be a lot of people disappointed, it is unavoidable.

I know it's probably impossible to totally prevent it, but what we can still do with this time we have is minimize our game choices to the best of our ability. It must suck to have to download and spend a few hours on 20+ different games just to make a nomination list. We should probably try to make it easier...if only so maybe no games up for vote cause a small riot again.

Below is the list of games Edge and I pulled from various threads (my bad if we missed any). Anybody who knows anything about a game listed enough to know any reason it would not be good to use it for a scoring competition should bullet-point their reasons here.

Since a lot of this is based on judgment calls, I'll update the list and shuffle the games with constructive points against them to the Lesser Nominations category. If enough arguments or a very convincing argument is made against a game (such as Space Megaforce and anything Compile), I'll just mark the game nomination "defeated"

Edge still picks what he wants to research, obviously. But at least the community has more of a voice so he knows what order he should take a look at things. All this list is for is to put our shout-out nominations into better perspective.

The theory is, the last games nobody knows enough about to bitch against may be our """hidden gems?"""

Code: Select all

Game - X.# (summerized useful stuff)
X = good points against it [based on my call]
# = complaints from member preference (counts as tenth of point) [starting Oct 8]



Nominations for Hidden Gem Week
----------------------------------------

Nebulas Ray
Thundercross 2
Omega Fighter
Macross Scrambled Valkyrie
Cybattler
Boogie Wings
Air Buster
Eco Fighters
Vasara
Vasara 2
Mazinger Z
Eliminate Down (rare enough to fit for now. +)
Aldynes
Air Buster
Whip Rush (bad street reviews +)
Varth (note: joystick waggling bomb charging)
Gun Frontier (research autofire)
Alpha Mission 2 (Armoured Scrum Object II = ASO II) - 0.1
Hellfire - 0.1
Image Fight - 0.1
Trigon (Jpn only) - 0.1
Violent Soldier - 0.1
Change Air Blade - 0.1 


Lesser Nominations (Games people have made decent points against)
----------------------------------------

Dragon Breed - 0.1 (questionable scoring? +)
19XX - 1 (clamed common)
In the Hunt - 0.2 (claimed slow pace)
Cyvern - 0.3 (claimed not hidden)
X-Multiply - 1 (not much scoring.  Survival based +)
Gekiridan - 1 (Average. +)
Xexex - 2 (Jpn only. kills most enemies score system, looping [how difficult?] +)
Space Manbow - 1 (kills most enemies score system, hard looping)
Sengeki Striker - 1 (claimed common +)
L-Dis - 0 (emu possible? +)
Captain Skyhawk - 1 (boring? +)
Outzone - 1 (Easy w/super ball weapon +)
Super Spy Hunter - 1 (not 'pure' enough? +)
Air Gallet - 1 (Mediocre +)
Nostradamus - 1 (Average. +)
Zunzunkyou No Yabou - 1 (questionable gameplay)
Strike Gunner STG - 1 (Explain why it's the worst)
Assault Suits Valken - 1 (Easy. +)
BioHazard Battle - 1 (Easy.  +)
Grind Stormer - 1 (crap MD no sound MAME)
Strike Gunner - 1 (SNES only.  jamma terrible)
Black Heart - 1 (bad graphics)
Iridis Alpha - 1 (not 'pure' but positive feedback)
Kingdom Grandprix - 0.1 (did Raizing week but not on poll)
Shienryu (Geki-Oh) - 4 (slowdowned port, questionable MAME)
Air Duel - 2 ("this is crap")
R-Type Leo - 3 (survival scoring, easy, claimed common)


Needs Testing to Reconsider
----------------------------------------

Parsec 47 - DEFEATED (doujin, but claims PC, mac, and few machine resources)
Cyberd - DEFEATED (doujin, but claims few machine resources & great scoring system)


Eliminated Nominations
----------------------------------------

Coryoon - DEFEATED (easy)
Space Megaforce - DEFEATED (Compile ruled out)
Twinbee - DEFEATED (too common)
Warning Forever - DEFEATED (doujin)
Guardian Legend - DEFEATED (Compile ruled out)
G-Type - DEFEATED (doujin)
Nomltest - DEFEATED (doujin)
XII Stag - DEFEATED (no emu)
1941 - DEFEATED (too common)
Cho Ren Sha - DEFEATED (doujin)
Creature Jungle 16 - DEFEATED (doujin)
X-10 Vatten - DEFEATED (doujin)
Sispri Gauntlet - DEFEATED (doujin)
Shikigami No Shiro 2 - DEFEATED (too common)
Thunderforce 5 - DEFEATED (too common)
Twinkle Star Sprites - DEFEATED (Edge ruling)
Under Defeat - DEFEATED (no emu)
Jackal - DEFEATED (not 'pure')
Choplifter - DEFEATED (not 'pure')
Desert War - DEFEATED (not 'pure'. Average)
Wivern Wings - DEFEATED (no emu)
GO GO Space Monkey - DEFEATED (GTA Minigame [no instant emu])
Geometry Wars - DEFEATED (no emu)
Kamui - DEFEATED (doujin)
Soldier Blade - DEFEATED (scoring bug)
Magical Chase - DEFEATED (easy)
Psychic 5 - DEFEATED (not STG)
Gunroar - DEFEATED (doujin)

+ = needs supporting arguments against listed claim (but different arguments against the game would be more useful)
*read: waiting for other people to say the same thing*

If you say a game is bad, but don't point out why , I'll shift the title down a few spots on the same list.
If you say a nomination is good, I'll shift the title up very few spots on its same list. If you point out why it's good in respects to what we're looking for on the week, I'll move it up even more. Abuse the thread to exploit this and you won't be listened to.

Be as harsh as you want on these games.

[Rob]

I'd like to see X-Multiply added to the nominated list, an offering to R-Type fans. X-Multiply has no scoring system but is challenging just to survive.

Bio HB - Too easy + they give out over 10 extra lives.
194x - I don't think these qualify as hidden. Or gems, really.
Strike Gunner STG - One of the worst shooters ever.
Grindstormer - The Genesis version was a primitive DonPachi-ish flicker fest. Arcade version any better? We've got Cave the following week...
Eliminate Down - more of a prized import than hidden gem.

[Sword]

If you're removing PC shmups on principle (seems to be the case. ), remove these as well:
Cho Ren Sha (doujin)
Creature Jungle 16 (doujin)
x-10 Vatten (doujin, hentai, not free iirc)
Sispri gauntlet (doujin, not free)

I still think you should keep something like Parsec 47 in.. It runs fine even on sucky PCs, and it has a mac version. Oh well.

[Edge]

Good idea to start this discussion based on a list, DJ.

Here are other votes from prior threads:

-ASO II (No idea what is meant?)
-Gekiridan
-GO GO Space Monkey
-Image Fight
-In the Hunt
-Mazinger Z
-R-Type Leo (not really hidden though...)
-Sengeki Striker
-Shienryu
-Shikigami No Shiro 2 (well, too famous)
-Thundercross 2
-Thunderforce 5 (DEFEATED)
-Twinkle Star Sprites (DEFEATED, no good for score competition)
-Under Defeat (Not on emu, right?)
-Whip Rush

For the most part I have never heard of these.

[mulletgeezer]

Image Fight - awesome but is it really hidden?
In the Hunt - would bore many players as it's a bit slow.
R-type Leo - too easy too get a near maximum score.
Sengeki Striker - a well known game
Shienryu - a well known game
Thundercross 2 - is quite a good nomination
Grindstormer - is crap on MD and i think has no sound in mame.
Strike Gunner - would be ok on SNES but the jamma version is terrible.
Xexex - good nomination, as long as it's the japanese version
Dragon Breed - good nomination
Outzone - not all that hidden i think, also the game becomes really easy with the Super Ball weapon and might turn into an endurance test.
Black Heart - i don't think many people would enjoy this one
Whip Rush - not bad but i remember many players hated this when it was released
Air Gallet - good nomination. quite hidden and has a nice scoring system.

[ill6]

I don't think 1941 is hidden at all to be honest.

I would define hidden as being played in popular circles but something people really ought to play.

Practically this probably means not from the big 3 i.e. Cave, Psikyo, Raizing and for the purpose of debate I would also exclude most of the output from the smaller houses, Alfa, Takumi (Nightraid excepted perhaps), Skonec, Milestone, Toaplan and so on. I would also disclude any of the major licences (your Rtypes, Gradiuses and so on).

Cyvern - I would say Cyvern is hidden as its on an odd system, by an odd developer. The fact its good must really help it.

Anything Warshi is not well played (though I would rather not play it), Sengeki Striker in particular is not a good idea but some play might help us understand it more.

Anything Irem except an Rtype is a good call, X Multiply seems to be a good call too.

Xexex, Vasara 1 or 2, Nebulasray, Omega Figher all seem sensible to me.

Wivern Wings anyone???!

Incidentally, how about next year we use the top 25 games poll to decide the games we play, i.e. the Cave game is the top cave game, the Raizing game is the top raizing game and so on.... That way there can be no arguments, retro would be the first game older than a certain date (where 1985 came from I don't know though!) and so on.

[mulletgeezer]

Desert War - a cross between Jackal and Choplifter, i doubt many people would enjoy this. Actually i think both Jackal and Choplifter are more hidden and gem-like than most of what's been nominated so far.

X-multiply - I don't think this is very hidden, and Dragon Breed might be better played for score.

Gekirindan - seems really average to me.

Nostradamus - ditto

Varth - good game but not all that hidden i think. the joystick waggling bomb charge method could cause major blistering to joypad users over the course of a week.

Although there have been some good nominations so far we need to work out which games might possibly keep people's interest for a whole week. I like starforce but it was only fun for about 3 days of playing and i think many of the nominated games would fall into the same boat. At the moment i would say only Air Gallet and Cyvern might keep me interested all week, also Iridis Alpha would but that's probably too weird for most people's tastes. So which games do we think would really keep people interested for a full 7 days?

[Twiddle]

Sispri Gauntlet 4.0 - Not everyone has free access to this doujin game. This game isn't very resource intensive (it'll run on a Celeron 600+), though.

Omega Fighter, Outzone, Vasara 2, 19xx, Air Gallet -- all good suggestions.

[freddiebamboo]

Vasara 2 would be a decent choice in my book, as would kingdom Grandprix - it might be raizing, but sod all people have actually ever played it judging by the hi score boards. Cyvern is also a good shout, although it was used at the last one wasn't it?

[CIT]

Vasara 1&2 are quite nice, but the gameplay style is too similar to Dragon Blaze imo. I don't know if people feel like playing the same type of game twice in a row.

My suggestions for "Hidden Gem Week":

- Shienryu (Warashi, 1997)
Very fast paced Raiden style game. Great graphics and sound, classic medal collection scoring. Extremely difficult to 1CC, so should provide good challenge.

- Air Gallet (Gazelle, 1996)
Slower that Shienryu, but trickier scoring system (also collecting medals). Hard as nails. Developed by former Toaplan and future Cave members, such as Joker Jun, so should be a popular choice.

- Nebulas Ray (Namco, 1994)
One of the best-looking shooters ever made. Gameplay is like a faster Rayforce without the lock-on.

- Trigon (aka Lightning Fighters) (Japan-Version only) (Konami, 1990)
- Gun Frontier (no auto) (Taito, 1990)
Two classic Toaplan-esque shooters, both very challenging. Gun Frontier was the inspiration for Battle Garegga and has great atmosphere, but becomes to easy if autofire is used. Trigon is pure destruction (mainly of the player ship ).

- Xexex (Japan Version only) (Konami, 1991)
- Thundercross II (Japan Version only) (Konami, 1991)
Xexex is like R-Type and X-Multiply on speed. Very strategic game. Use your tentacled pod to work your way through the levels and make sure you equip the right weapons and don't get too distracted by the beautiful sprites and graphic effects.
Thundercross II is similar to, and just as awesome as the other famous games with "Thunder" in the title (_ Force, Gate of _). Very accesible game with a nice learning curve, as well.
Both these are great games, but might provide too little scoring opportunities apart from advancing as far as possible into the game.

[BulletMagnet]

Vasara 1&2 are quite nice, but the gameplay style is too similar to Dragon Blaze imo. I don't know if people feel like playing the same type of game twice in a row.

Nah, the only real similarity is the close-range attack (which here can be defensive as well as offensive)...it's got other Psikyo-esque qualities (timed item collection, orange bullets) but it honestly doesn't feel much like a Psikyo game to me, regardless. If nothing else, the weapon attack gives you a lot more freedom when it comes to surviving nasty enemy patterns than any Psikyo game gives you, not to mention that stage progression (although different for each character) is fixed.

Shienryu (Warashi, 1997)

Decent choice, but we'd need to clarify whether Geki-Oh is allowed, due to its increased slowdown...also, I don't think this game is well-emulated in MAME either.

[Twiddle]

Gun Frontier was the inspiration for Battle Garegga and has great atmosphere, but becomes to easy if autofire is used.

That's in the Saturn revision.

In MAME, rank shoots up to maximum at the end of stage 1 when <4 autofire is used because of the frame-between-shots-dependent rank.

[CIT]

Yip, your right. Forgot to mention that it applies to the Saturn version.

[The Coop]

Not sure why 1941 and 19XX are being chucked aside so readily. "XX" was arcade only, and it got some good press. "41" only had one console port, and that was on a DOA Japan-only console until the Capcom collection on the PSP. And it too got some good press back in the day.

They both certainly qualify as hidden, as even their arcade distribution wasn't exactly wide spread (if I recall correctly). Whether or not they're gems is obviously going to debated here, but considering games like X-Multiply and Xexex are being entertained, I feel the other two should be as well.

[PlasmaBlooD]

Not sure why 1941 and 19XX are being chucked aside so readily. "XX" was arcade only, and it got some good press. "41" only had one console port, and that was on a DOA Japan-only console until the Capcom collection on the PSP. And it too got some good press back in the day.

They both certainly qualify as hidden, as even their arcade distribution wasn't exactly wide spread (if I recall correctly). Whether or not they're gems is obviously going to debated here, but considering games like X-Multiply and Xexex are being entertained, I feel the other two should be as well.

1941 Port Super Grafx

[Rob]

Not sure why 1941 and 19XX are being chucked aside so readily. "XX" was arcade only, and it got some good press. "41" only had one console port, and that was on a DOA Japan-only console until the Capcom collection on the PSP. And it too got some good press back in the day.

"Good press" is not the best argument for declaring something hidden. Any press. It's a popular enough series to spawn multiple sequels. I think any really hidden great game wasn't popular enough to receive a sequel.

X-Multiply is a one-shot game that is heavily overshadowed by R-Type, but I'd say more fun. HG all the way.

[mulletgeezer]

Shienryu is NOT a hidden gem. Try googling for it, or looking on ebay and you'll see it's very well known. I searched this forum and found it has 250+ matches, not too far behind dragon blaze which has 300. Omega Fighter has 20 matches on this forum, that's HIDDEN (and most of those matches were probably posts about it being a hidden gem). Also of course Shienryu is no gem, it's mediocre in every way.

Trigon is a good choice though.

[The Coop]

Not sure why 1941 and 19XX are being chucked aside so readily. "XX" was arcade only, and it got some good press. "41" only had one console port, and that was on a DOA Japan-only console until the Capcom collection on the PSP. And it too got some good press back in the day.

"Good press" is not the best argument for declaring something hidden. Any press. It's a popular enough series to spawn multiple sequels. I think any really hidden great game wasn't popular enough to receive a sequel.

X-Multiply is a one-shot game that is heavily overshadowed by R-Type, but I'd say more fun. HG all the way.

You'll notice, I said "some". For 1941, I saw a single article in GameFan that was positive. And if I recall, GameFan did the same thing for 19XX (Xexex was covered in that magazine as well). Maybe they were popular enough for sequels in Japan, but they certainly didn't get much attention in the US.

And horrid games get sequels too, so that's a moot point if you ask me.

[Rob]

but they certainly didn't get much attention in the US.

Most shooters don't, for the last 10-15 years.

And horrid games get sequels too, so that's a moot point if you ask me.

It's a clue that it's popular enough. Not many flops get sequels.

[ill6]

I remember playing 1941 when it came out... It was common in the UK.

Of couse it could have been 1943 or one of the other incarnations; my memory is hazy but I am pretty sure it was 1941.

[Super Laydock]

[quote="DJ Incompetent"]

Code: Select all

Nominations for Hidden Gem Week
----------------------------------------
...
X-10 Vatten
...
---------------

I know I was the one mentioning X-10 Vatten in that thread, but seriously did NOT want to nominate it. It's not a serious candidate, being more of an attraction for it's hentai theme than for it gameplay qualities.
Also it's NOT freeware, only the demo with 1 level is, and would have to be bought.

@ DJI and Edge: for advice on cool freeware PC shmups ask Postman (from ShoottheCore website). He'd surely be able to suggest some TRULY hidden (practically unknown) gems.

[DJ Incompetent]

About this

Code: Select all

Needs Testing to Reconsider 
---------------------------------------- 

Parsec 47 - DEFEATED (doujin, but claims PC, mac, and few machine resources) 

If you guys reeeeeeeeeally want this, I think people who believe they have crappy computers get a hold of the game and test it for themselves. If they are satisfied enough to want it for a week, post your results along with the following about your comp:
-what operating system
-Processor speed (or known type/brand)
-RAM
-If you're not using a stock video card
-Any special downloaded program tweaks that were required to get this running

However, I want to see the following operating systems results posted before this even has a chance:
Windows XP, Mac, Linux, Windows 2000

After that part is satisfied, the lower the comp specs I see, the more I'll feel this game should have a true shot.

Any doujin game with a similar claim will be moved here and subjected to the same tests.

Anybody using emulators for the comp but using an operating system not in the 4 listed (or a really old Mac or really offshoot Linux version) should shout out now.

Actually, if anybody in the tourney is on a Linux computer period, I'd be interested to know.


@Laydock
we'll hold on tapping the postman for now. We have enough on our options as it is. Then there's the entire "who can run it" argument.

Thanks though



The list is updated. Keep knocking on those games.