2 player mode potential

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:59 am

I just watched a dual play of Mushihimesama, and I kept thinking about 2 player modes in shmups.

Given that most modern shmups are very competetive (playing for score) I bet that 2 players on 1 cabinet must be a rare sight in japanese arcades. And while I have no idea how the scoring works with two players (imagine players killing each others chain in Ikaruga, or cutting off enemy flow in DDP), there must be a huge plus in firepower, and, more interestingly, in bullet gaps - since enemies now have to aim at 2 players.

Given how tough aimed fire can be, especially in games like Ibara that chase the player from one side of the screen to the other (or even circling some bosses), 2 player shmups might have some interesting potential. One the one hand, players can assist each other, taking out huge enemies faster or spreading enemy barrage; one the other hand, players could battle for the higher score. Again, messing up each others chain in Ikaruga would be more fun than co-op play!

And while run-and-guns like Metal Slug can be huge fun with 2 players, my point is the potential that 2p in shmups has. I guess I don`t have to tell you how much difference playing video games with someone else is opposed to solitary gaming. Beating Hibachi or DOOM together must be a binding experience too, but again, I have my doubts that players would want to share their victory, given the tough competetiveness (and how the 2p affects the access of the second loops).

Another point would be if modern shmups are even designed to handle two players - additional enemies or the like, or if they just keep the 2p option for the heck of it.

A penny for your thoughts!

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:07 pm

I've always thought that carefully designed score mechanics for two players would be great fun, where you actually NEED to be two players to get maximum amount of points in said game mode, and both players share the same score too. It would give arcade teamplay a whole new meaning.

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:08 pm

Well as I'm pretty poor at Mars Matrix, and as it was one of my first shmups, me and my house mate played it as a 2 player experience using the least number of credits possible and competing for exp cupes and killing blows etc.

It was hardly a refined experience and the game was in no way designed for this sort of thing but it was a hell of a lot of fun!

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:37 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:Given that most modern shmups are very competetive (playing for score) I bet that 2 players on 1 cabinet must be a rare sight in japanese arcades. And while I have no idea how the scoring works with two players (imagine players killing each others chain in Ikaruga, or cutting off enemy flow in DDP), there must be a huge plus in firepower, and, more interestingly, in bullet gaps - since enemies now have to aim at 2 players.

2 player Ikaruga requires solid teamwork for both players to maintain their chains throughout an entire stage. However, the design allows for this. Yes, they can occasionally get in each others' way, but it simply boils down to learning new stage tactics. Remember, Ikaruga has both seperate and team scores in 2 player mode.

Cave games just aren't designed for 2 players. The 2 player option seems vestigial really.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:36 pm

Kiken wrote:Cave games just aren't designed for 2 players. The 2 player option seems vestigial really.

True, most Cave games (and shmups as a whole, really) aren't really designed for "serious" 2-player runs, but I'm still glad the 2P option is there, if only to allow more experienced shmuppers to let a newbie in on the game, with the former giving the latter a bit of support as he gets used to it. I always try to get friends of mine to play a game or two of something when they're over, and they seem more at ease when I'm playing along with them, rather than just calling out instructions to them from the sidelines.

That said, more "team-oriented" shmups would indeed be interesting to see, it'd add a new dimension of sorts to serious score play.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:50 pm

Dangun Feveron is probably the only decent 2 player cave have made where you can both score together properly.

Daigohji · Post by **Daigohji** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:43 pm

I think an interesting idea would be if there were completely different scoring mechanics for the two players. If executed well, that would prevent people from stepping on each others' toes. For example, player one's score could be affected by drawing enemy fire away from his partner, then dodging/grazing the bullets. While the other player's score could be based on enemies killed, and suppressing enemy fire when things get too hectic for player one (ie. bullet canceling key enemies).

To encourage maximum cooperation, each person's score could be multiplied at the end of the stage based on how many lives the other player has remaining and what their stage score was.

Daigoro · Post by **Daigoro** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:14 am

yeah, most shmups really dont work well in 2P. i usually feel like the other player is just getting in the way and confusing me.

but lately ive found that Under Defeat plays really well as a 2P game.

i FINALLY got one of my friends to play a shmup with me (right before my non modded DC stick shit the bed)! usually they shun them like the plague, but UD is pretty well received by my casual pals.

just playing for survival, we are able to get 1/2 way through the 3rd level on 1 credit a piece. im hoping to be able to clear the 3rd level boss with him after a bit more practice.

i consider this quite a success. its not easy to get my friends to play shmups at all.

Gradius V is a pretty awesome 2P shmup as well.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:32 am

total carnage

oh wait that's a run and gun/arena shooter we must not allow it to taint the holy narrow definition of shmup

Post by **Icarus** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:03 am

Surprised no one's mentioned Raiden 3 yet.
Oh, wait...

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:10 am

Raiden 3 dual play more like every enemy wave and boss lasts half as long if you can synchronize both movements

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:12 am

I had an idea for a shmup a while back where it was two player split screen. The players would go through the level only to find out at the end that they were flying towards each other and had met in the middle, then they'd fight Senko no Ronde style.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:38 am

Hey, some pretty sweet ideas! So far I have the impression that the potential would be huge and that it hasn`t really been tackled so far.

On a sidenote, I tried double-playing DDP last night (with a single SNES pad, quite fitting I have to say, Smash-TV style) and it felt like my brain would split in half. It`s REALLY irritating, and I didn`t do that for long. On the other hand, the brain gets used to news things pretty fast; my last experience was Guwange, where you basically have to concentrate on your player AND the spirit at the same time, which used to mess me up really fast, but it got better really quick. Double plays seems quite popular in Shikigami, and the VFT-INO (or VTF-INO?) Ikaruga plays are classic.

kccttzj · Post by **kccttzj** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:15 am

My fiance and I talk about this all the time. We play shooters two player all the time. Sometimes we play them for competition and sometimes we just play out the credits, and we always have a lot of fun. I agree that some shooters and not that enjoyable to play two player, but a lot of them are. I guess it depends on the game, who you play with, and how often you play 2 player, but I never have much of a problem with the other player being on the screen.

It would be nice to see something different done with the two player mode. You guys have a lot of good ideas. Maybe someday we'll actually see something like that in a new shooter.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:06 pm

kccttzj, what movie is your avatar from? I don`t care much about anime, but this seems to be from a Ghibli movie, am I right? I´ve seen Spirited Away recently, and it quickly became one of my "show this to anyone I know" movies.

I agree that co-op can be a lot of fun, especially introducing casual or "mainstream" gamers into 2D gaming.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:03 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:kccttzj, what movie is your avatar from? I don`t care much about anime, but this seems to be from a Ghibli movie, am I right?.

You are. It's from "My Neighbor Totoro". Wonderful movie, imo.

PC Engine Fan X! · Post by **PC Engine Fan X!** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:58 pm

The oldie but goodie arcade PCB classic shmup title of "Hyper Dyne Sidearms" from Capcom circa 1986, was designed as a one or two-player arcade shmup experience. The 2nd player could join in at any given time which was a very cool option at the time. It was when both players were combined in "joint-transformed mecha suit combination form", the first player to grab the peculiar transformation icon, would be in charge of controlling the suit whereas the 2nd player would just control the firing from whithin the jointed suit itself (the alpha player would end up getting more points than the 2nd player every time -- sharp Sidearms players would try to take advantage of that feature to boost up their score if a two-player shmup session was going on).

Back in the mid 1980's and into the late 1980's, most arcade shmup titles relied on the old school system of alternating between player 1 and player 2 for seperate shmup sessions (i.e. -- Data East's Darwin 4078 or Konami's Ajax arcade shmup PCBs featured alternating player sessions)...Sidearms changed that notion with providing the two-player simultaneous gameplay mechanics -- a new-fangled idea at the time for arcade shmup-based games. Eventually, arcade game developers would wise up to this novel idea for their future arcade game title releases. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

kccttzj · Post by **kccttzj** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:26 pm

Herr Schatten wrote:
FrederikJurk wrote:kccttzj, what movie is your avatar from? I don`t care much about anime, but this seems to be from a Ghibli movie, am I right?.
You are. It's from "My Neighbor Totoro". Wonderful movie, imo.

Yes, it is from "My Neighbor Totoro"! Wonderful movie imo as well.

kccttzj · Post by **kccttzj** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:27 pm

Herr Schatten wrote:
FrederikJurk wrote:kccttzj, what movie is your avatar from? I don`t care much about anime, but this seems to be from a Ghibli movie, am I right?.
You are. It's from "My Neighbor Totoro". Wonderful movie, imo.

Yes, it is from "My Neighbor Totoro"! Wonderful movie imo as well.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:01 pm

kccttzj wrote:
Herr Schatten wrote:
FrederikJurk wrote:kccttzj, what movie is your avatar from? I don`t care much about anime, but this seems to be from a Ghibli movie, am I right?.
You are. It's from "My Neighbor Totoro". Wonderful movie, imo.
Yes, it is from "My Neighbor Totoro"! Wonderful movie imo as well.

Loved that movie too. probably one of the first movies I remember watching I think.

anyways, I really like having 2 player on shooters when possible. Strike Gunner STG's "combine the ship" ability made it loads more fun than it is to play in 1 player mode. oh the fun times me and my friends had annihilating bosses together! Good times.
Stinger (or Twinbee as it's called in japan I think.) was also lots of fun in 2player. me and my brother would play that together when we were little. (before he became a massive sports obsessed jerk that is.) it was always good knowing we could use that wave attack to get rid of the majorly annoying patterns the game had.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:07 pm

I love 2 player shooters. The problem is that nobody in my city even knows what a shmup is, let alone want to play 2 player. Everybody just plays Madden.

MOSQUITO FIGHTER · Post by **MOSQUITO FIGHTER** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:41 pm

How about one player gets to be the ship and the other the boss. Probably a bad idea. Could be fun though.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:50 pm

MOSQUITO FIGHTER wrote:How about one player gets to be the ship and the other the boss. Probably a bad idea. Could be fun though.

Done. And it is fun!
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... e_id=11351

MOSQUITO FIGHTER · Post by **MOSQUITO FIGHTER** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:45 am

Dave_K. wrote:
MOSQUITO FIGHTER wrote:How about one player gets to be the ship and the other the boss. Probably a bad idea. Could be fun though.
Done. And it is fun!
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?let ... e_id=11351

Just tried it out it is fun. That's neat how they handled the boss transformations. The bullet patterns are fun to control. Cool game. Thanks for the knowledge.

shmups.system11.org

2 player mode potential

2 player mode potential

Re: 2 player mode potential

Re: 2 player mode potential

Capcom's Sidearms PCB provided 2-player co-op play...