Actual hidden gems.

[Rob]

Nomltest: Eat bullets by holding them in your ship's aura for a second. Eat value ranges 10-500 by 10s; it gets +20 for destroying a formation, -20 for missing one, and a big penalty for dying. Enemies appear at random, but behavior follows a script; there tends to be less randomness and better balance than Parsec47 IMO. Extends are every 200k points, which works out to 1.5-2 minutes or so. Games lasting longer than 10 minutes are really rare.

Sounds great.

[Icarus]

Doujin games are a little tricky to work into a score comp, given that some users aren't using PCs for their gaming, and those that are might not be using WinBlows.

Also, you exclude players that don't use computers for gaming at all.

[BulletMagnet]

Also, you exclude players that don't use computers for gaming at all.

That's more or less been the case all tournament long, as the only way to make a game accessible to as many people as possible is to play stuff that's emulated or otherwise available for download. I honestly can't see much of a way around it, as a computer is about the only thing that we know everyone here owns: if you used unemulated console stuff, there'd be an even greater number of non-participants.

[shiftace]

Additional note: Parsec47, and most of ABA Games, is open source and has been ported to Mac and Linux (I don't have the links). Nomltest is Windows only, but extremely low-end; I don't know the state of Windows emulation on other OSes. FWIW.

[Super Laydock]

Also, you exclude players that don't use computers for gaming at all.

That's more or less been the case all tournament long, as the only way to make a game accessible to as many people as possible is to play stuff that's emulated or otherwise available for download. I honestly can't see much of a way around it, as a computer is about the only thing that we know everyone here owns: if you used unemulated console stuff, there'd be an even greater number of non-participants.

I couldnt have said it better!
(sounds a lot better than just a "QFT", I think )

And I still say, let Postman pick us some of those hidden Doujin gems for the poll in the hidden gems week! He's the one in the know!

[Icarus]

That's more or less been the case all tournament long, as the only way to make a game accessible to as many people as possible is to play stuff that's emulated or otherwise available for download. I honestly can't see much of a way around it, as a computer is about the only thing that we know everyone here owns: if you used unemulated console stuff, there'd be an even greater number of non-participants.

And what's the guarantee that people have computers fast enough to run the latest doujin? Then there are the PCB and console port only players that are unable to participate.

Doujin week is an interesting idea, but is wasted when it comes to mass participation.

[professor ganson]

That's more or less been the case all tournament long, as the only way to make a game accessible to as many people as possible is to play stuff that's emulated or otherwise available for download. I honestly can't see much of a way around it, as a computer is about the only thing that we know everyone here owns: if you used unemulated console stuff, there'd be an even greater number of non-participants.

And what's the guarantee that people have computers fast enough to run the latest doujin? Then there are the PCB and console port only players that are unable to participate.

Doujin week is an interesting idea, but is wasted when it comes to mass participation.

Nicely put.

[Rob]

How many scores haven't had MAME next to them? It's been effectively a requirement to use a computer. They don't have to be the latest greatest game, but if you can run a Psikyo game in MAME (these used to be the biggest problem for me), they shouldn't be much of a problem. Right?

[Icarus]

Some teams have more PCB/console users than others, and even if MAME on PC isn't used, it is used on an XBox (vis FBAX or MAMEox). I know this is the case with my team, can't say the same for the others.

Again, doujin week is an interesting idea, especially for a seperate competition. But for this one, you're effectively excluding dedicated participants from playing.

[BulletMagnet]

And what's the guarantee that people have computers fast enough to run the latest doujin?

It's not a "guarantee," but it's about the closest thing to one I can think of. The fact of the matter is, more people on the forum have access to shmups on their computers than on any other console/machine/whatever: that's the reason we've been sticking to games that can be emulated thus far, or at least that was the impression I had.

If you can think of a better way to make the competition less exclusive, I'm all for it.

[Icarus]

If you can think of a better way to make the competition less exclusive, I'm all for it.

Its already "less exclusive" right now, isn't it?
There's been at least 65 entrants each week out of a registered 90ish. Not a bad ratio considering.

[BulletMagnet]

Well, if playing stuff almost entirely on a computer is working out well enough for you as it is, why would you be against allowing doujin games, almost all of which are computer-exclusive? I don't think doing so would exclude many more people (if any) than the current setup has, not to mention that there's no "emulation hangup" to take into consideration for many here. There are a couple of limitations, as you mentioned earlier, but that's the case with any type of game one might suggest, and again, I don't see doujins making it much worse than it is.

Look at it this way, AirRade AIR might get selected and you could kick all our butts and gloat yet another time.

[Super Laydock]

X-10 Vatten is certainly a not well known and hidden game.

I may not be a gem, but it certainly has some hidden jewels.


Link is NSFW!

[Rob]

Some teams have more PCB/console users than others,

I can count 3 people that have made this known. They've already been excluded because of MAME-only games (or not, by luck of owning the PCB). Hidden gem week makes the odds go even further down that a selected game will be owned, by chance.

[Icarus]

The problem I see is that the majority of games via arcade emulation doesn't really require everything on a computer to run. Doujins do, and the requirements for running might exceed what particular users have. This is especially the case for the more recent stuff that require 3D cards.

Then there is the availability of particular games. People are throwing around suggestions like Hitogata Happa, Soldier Force and Airrade Air, knowing fine well that some require 3D cards to run (and some more high-end than others), also knowing that these games are only freely available as demos (and have to be bought or acquired through more... dubious means), without considering that some users might not have a good enough 3D card to run it with, or know where to acquire the game in question.

This is why I suggested emulation as a basis for the competition, but NOT 3D-based arcade games like G-Darius and Brave Blade. Not everyone that has a PC uses it for gaming, some probably still have a relatively average-spec system that can run most MAME games without hassle, but chokes at anything more intensive. At least with a MAME centric tournament design you can still allow PCB/console exclusive players to participate. Rob is right that there is only a handful of participants that are PCB/console exclusive, but that does not exclude the fact that they are registered to the tournament and are willing to play.

And it won't look very good if less than half the entrants are able to submit scores for the competition. For the third time, doujin week is a good idea, and would be great if a seperate tournament was considered that was doujin-centric, as you could then be assured that all entrants will be able to acquire and play the games.

EDIT: The only way we can tell for certain is to start a poll, and all tournament entrants vote on whether or not they can play doujin for that week, based on system spec, game availability and whether or not they actually want to.

[BulletMagnet]

People are throwing around suggestions like Hitogata Happa, Soldier Force and Airrade Air, knowing fine well that some require 3D cards to run (and some more high-end than others), also knowing that these games are only freely available as demos

On that note, I suggested earlier that we only use stuff that offers the full version for free...hopefully you didn't think I was serious about AIR.

As for the technical limitations and such, I'm no tech expert, and I have no idea what kinds of computers our members here have, but I'm sure we could find at least a couple of games that shouldn't give people too much trouble if we looked around a bit. I don't think we should exclude the entire category of doujin games and throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater because of a (I would guess) relatively small amount of possible technical difficulties. Even if this ever happens it's a year away, we have plenty of time to be selective.

[Ko.oS]

hm, is there a difference between Omega Fighter and Omega Fighter Special? ive only played the latter, and I agree its an excellent title - you can massively increase your score once you start to use your bombs properly btw; ive not played the game in a long while, but for the two of you who care my best 1st round score was around 5.25M (never got past 2-6 though)
if someone knows about a dedicated site with either replays and/or strategy guides/printed maps, be nice and post here (apparently top players can score 8+M per round...)

the game is also alot of fun in 2P mode btw, and if you use Raine it runs fine even on a p166 :)

[landshark]

What about 1941? Pure destruction-based scoring, no fancy tricks. Some secret scoring items hidden in stage, end-stage bonuses dependent on destruction ratio. Also in the same category, 19XX.

No no no no. We've already established this is a score based competition (says someone else) and thus every game must have some sort of lame scoring gimick (hate gimicks - just wanna blow shit up).

[Rob]

lame scoring gimick

Balderdash, I want good scoring gimmicks.

[Davey]

Enemies appear at random, but behavior follows a script; there tends to be less randomness and better balance than Parsec47 IMO.

As much as I love Parsec47 and want it to bear my children, the lack of balance can be nerve-wracking. A great run can be ruined pretty quickly by patterns that seem literally impossible. On the other hand, the frequent extends persuade you to keep fighting after you make a simple mistake or get screwed over by a wall of impossibleness, none of that "I died on stage 2 so I'm going to start over" business like in other shmups.

Kenta Cho's later work seems to handle randomness much better. I really can't think of any times I suffered an unfair death in Gunroar (but in all fairness, its patterns aren't as varied as the ones in Parsec47).

Besides, considering how the rest of the tournament has gone, I'd expect to fall pretty far if one got picked.

Yeah, I always wondered what the Parsec47 and Nomltest boards would look like if more prominent board members took them seriously. I know I wouldn't stay near the top, but given that there's no boss patterns to dissect, chains to master, secrets to uncover, or superplays to study, I'm not sure exactly how badly I'd be blown out of the water.

By the way, I was going to be a cock and try to top your Parsec47 score before piyo had a chance to update the official scoreboard, but I hardly break 10 million these days... my shooting has sucked for the past couple months.

[Pirate1019]

If you are looking for score-centric games, try most of the games made by Kenta Cho...almost all of them are endless and are played purely for score. Noiz2sa, Gunroar, and Parsec 47 come to mind. Tumiki fighters is good too, although not my favorite. It's a horizontal.

I would support Cho Ren Sha as an "Overlooked Gem". Not quite hidden, but close enough.

Nomltest is a good choice. The bullet eating mechanic is pretty cool.

Or if you wanted something else you might try XOP. It's a shareware game that the maker released as freeware because of poor sales. (There should be a thread somewhere in the bowels of this forum, maybe the development section.)

[Twiddle]

Look at it this way, AirRade AIR might get selected and you could kick all our butts and gloat yet another time.

Some of the 90+hit "unending" chains are framerate based and are very inconsistent in pulling off, and if you have more than a dozen TSRs you'll skip a frame every half second or second. Not to mention that replays are the most unstable things due to this machine-independent game speed.

[zaphod]

most here know about the greatness that is Cho Ren Sha.

However, i don't think it realylhas enough of a scoring gimmick. all there si is possible boss milking, and the pwerup system. no medals.

[shiftace]

Cho Ren Sha is a very traditional, wonderfully executed arcade-style shmup. As mentioned, it's pretty been well exposed here. I, for one, do not relish the thought of spinning powerups for a week.

Some thoughts on ABA Games:
Noiz2sa -- What it does well, Parsec47 does better, basically.
rRootage -- No scoring system to speak of.
Parsec47 -- A fair candidate, I think.
Tumiki Fighters -- Is it hard enough for really good players?
Torus Trooper -- Borderline shmup, too random.
Gunroar -- Still feels very strange to me. Islands are aggravating. Might be a viable choice.

XOP -- I didn't think this had much of a score system; it's largely a Compile tribute. It crashed randomly on me, and IIRC on some other people as well.

I still think Nomltest is the best doujin candidate for week 5, if not the only good candidate so far. Well, ok, I think Parsec47 and Cho Ren Sha could work too. But the final question is, of course, if you'd want to play any of these instead of whatever else gets nominated.

By the way, I was going to be a cock and try to top your Parsec47 score before piyo had a chance to update the official scoreboard, but I hardly break 10 million these days... my shooting has sucked for the past couple months.

Hey, it's a high score forum, you're supposed to knock people off the top. I wonder where piyo went anyway.

[Sword]

I still think Nomltest is the best doujin candidate for week 5, if not the only good candidate so far. Well, ok, I think Parsec47 and Cho Ren Sha could work too. But the final question is, of course, if you'd want to play any of these instead of whatever else gets nominated.

Warning Forever might work.

[BulletMagnet]

Warning Forever might work.

It's another relatively well-known one though, sort of like Cho Ren Sha...dunno if it'd qualify as a hidden gem. I hafta spend a bit of time over at STC, and dig up some good unknown full-version stuff...

[Gungriffon Geona]

most here know about the greatness that is Cho Ren Sha.

However, i don't think it realylhas enough of a scoring gimmick. all there si is possible boss milking, and the pwerup system. no medals.

Anyone completely capable of making it through the second run AND defeat the true final boss deserves to be crowned as SHMUP king. I made it to that boss and went freaking nuts trying to beat it (failing miserably of course.)

[Pirate1019]

most here know about the greatness that is Cho Ren Sha.

However, i don't think it realylhas enough of a scoring gimmick. all there si is possible boss milking, and the pwerup system. no medals.

Anyone completely capable of making it through the second run AND defeat the true final boss deserves to be crowned as SHMUP king. I made it to that boss and went freaking nuts trying to beat it (failing miserably of course.)

Can't even get past 1-2...

I think Gunroar is a viable candidate. The scoring gimmick is a multiplier that varies depending on how fast you go through a level. I don't fully understand the whole thing but that's the basic idea.

[DJ Incompetent]

Hey, I've got a feeling we've got a crapload of Gem Week nominations and Edge is going to run into that problem again where he has 20+ titles to sort through and he picks 5 of them that too many people will complain about 'cause everybody wanted something totally different for the one week.

I think everybody should pool their knowledge together about what we know about the games currently nominated and start shooting them down more aggressively like that Space Megaforce discussion.

I've compiled a list of just about everything nominated here. I didn't wanna hijack this thread in case there's still new stuff to nominate, so I posted the list back at the main STGT thread.

Besides, here is everybody's chance to be a hypercritical bastard over the internet in the name of productivity. A rare opportunity indeed.

[Gungriffon Geona]

ya know, why didn't I even think about it? I should say Assault Suits Valken (even though it's not exactly a true shmup, it's still bloody fun.)

Funny thing, I can beat the whole game in 23 minutes. I swear I'm too good at it.