Why no Ketsui home port?

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:03 am

So in other words besides the resolution (wich isn't perfect but is certainly better than Mushi) and lack of slowdown.... you think it's awful b/c the lack of black label....

I think thats a bit harsh...

I have the PS1 version of Dodonpachi and never turn on the emulated slowdown... I manage fine in that and Ibara. It's just more challenging to me anyways.

I can see you hating the resolution issues, I do also to be honest. Still like I said, I think saying its just worthless and bad is extreme.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:23 am

I was under the impression a Cave fan was a Cave fan.

What makes the devcos believe Ibara or Pink sweets will sell more copies than Ketsui? I'm sure at least as many people would buy it as the more recent titles.

roker · Post by **roker** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:33 am

Strider77 wrote:Still like I said, I think saying its just worthless and bad is extreme.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:41 am

Strider77 wrote:Still like I said, I think saying its just worthless and bad is extreme.

You're confusing 'bad game' with 'bad port'. I've only said the port is bad, not the game. The PS2 Ibara is still a good game. It's just a bad port (meaning it is far from accurate to the PCB arcade version).

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:58 am

Do we have to go through this every other week...
A) Buy the port, if you like it great if not sell it on these very forums. You will get your money back so its no risk. If you own the port and are happy then thats great for you.
B) Assuming you can afford it, the PCB its better (as with all PCB's) so if this is the kind of game you like and you can afford buy the PCB. If you don't like it you can sell it on these forums.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:27 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:What makes the devcos believe Ibara or Pink sweets will sell more copies than Ketsui? I'm sure at least as many people would buy it as the more recent titles.

Where did this question come from? The fact that Ketsui is an older title? Or the fact that Ibara and Pink Sweets are full of fanservice? Arika, and now Cave, have simply been releasing home ports in the order of arcade release.

fl0w · Post by **fl0w** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:38 pm

it comes from:

SAM wrote:A home port of Ketsui could always been done, I think the main reason why it don't, it because it had passed the best time to do it (i.e. bussiness oppotunities)

I guess Cave feels a home port of Ketsui is not profitable enough to justify the resource spent on such a project. i.e. a port of other Cave's shmups is think as more profitable.

Cave only publish 1 (at most 2) home port a year, some games will distinated have to be skiped. If Cave port Ketsui next year, it might turn out that we are would be missing a home port of ESPgaluda II forever.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:53 pm

ill6 wrote:...the PCB its better (as with all PCB's)...

I don't agree with the axiom that the PCB is always better.

Espgaluda, PS2
Under Defeat, DC
Battle Garegga, SAT
Soukyuugurentai, SAT
Radiant Silvergun, SAT

...all examples where the console version is actually better than the PCB, imo, due to great extra modes, missing glitches, etc.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:06 pm

Mars Matrix
Shikigami no Shiro 2
Border Down
.
.
.
many ports are better

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:43 pm

The port package might be better (and will certainly be better value) but my logic is as follows:

*The PCB is the original. By definition it is 100% of whatever it is.
*Any port will by definition require changes to get it to work unless it was being ported to the same architecture. E.g. it is a going to either attempt to run the same code on an emulator of some description or will be a copy and re-engineering of the code to another architecture.
*In making the changes the port will become different to the original. It can't be better than the original that it is trying to emulate because the original is "complete" in terms of whatever it is.

e.g. if I copied Monalisa and fixed the mouth it would not be better, it would be worse than the original because it had been changed.

I guess what I am trying to say is that any port requires change and any change makes it less complete compared to the original.

Now obviously there are cases where extras are added (Mars Matrix) which might make the package a better option than the original but the "original" mode will be inferior. There could also be cases where the original is tuned and improved into something different and subsequently better (take for example Chaos Field) but still a straight port will always be worse.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:48 pm

I have ports and PCBs of all of these; other than the extra modes I would say all are inferior.

Espgaluda, PS2
Soukyuugurentai, SAT
Radiant Silvergun, SAT
Mars Matrix
Shikigami no Shiro 2
Border Down

SnS2 and BD are so similar to the original though that its not worth arguing on those.

Also RS is an interesting case since it was originally developer for Saturn.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:06 pm

fl0w wrote:it comes from:

SAM wrote:A home port of Ketsui could always been done, I think the main reason why it don't, it because it had passed the best time to do it (i.e. bussiness oppotunities)

I guess Cave feels a home port of Ketsui is not profitable enough to justify the resource spent on such a project. i.e. a port of other Cave's shmups is think as more profitable.

Cave only publish 1 (at most 2) home port a year, some games will distinated have to be skiped. If Cave port Ketsui next year, it might turn out that we are would be missing a home port of ESPgaluda II forever.

Mihara (of Arika) stated that a straight homeport of Ketsui on PS2 was possible and could be done (it runs on the same hardware as both DOJ and ESPGaluda which Arika have experience in porting to the PS2). However, he also said that a straight port just wouldn't sell and that additional content was needed. He went on to say that the PS2 would not be able to handle a special practice mode that he had in mind (your guess is as good as mine exactly what this "practice mode" entailed) as an extra mode and that the PS3 was his intended console of choice.

Considering the fact that we haven't heard/read anything else on the matter, I'm going to assume that Mihara has given up on this dream for the time being.

As for Cave themselves, they've never shown any interest in porting Ketsui at all. In fact, the only games that they seem apt to port are ones with high merchandising potential (read: fan service). This is why I have a feeling that they may pass over ESPGaluda II in favour of porting PinkSweets (at least for the time being... popularity probably also plays into this). Not to mention that I have a feeling that PinkSweets would be the less technically-challenging game to port.

As for where either of these companies would port their software, until 2008, I still see the PS2 as the console of choice (if nothing else for both installed user-base and hardware familiarity).

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:35 pm

As far as the Ibara port I haven't seen the original so I'm in no place to say anything I guess.

It can't be better than the original that it is trying to emulate because the original is "complete" in terms of whatever it is.

I don't agree with this though at all. A port can be better if it is improved upon. Like Hyper Duel... the saturn mode is clearly better. It looks better, sounds better, and plays better with the hold button. I think Soukyu-Gurentai and radient are better b/c their the same with more. They are running on the same hardware almost. Naomi ports especially like Under Defeat, Border Down...... The only way to tell the difference would be to look at the code of the game itself, or by the extra features and options. I would bet money I could have these games I listed running in a cab and folks would not know they were home ports if the game was being played (title screen with options would give it away).

Besides the idea of something being complete only b/c it was first is wrong. I know sometimes the creaters have to cut it short, leave things out or have changes made against there will do to whoever is producing ect and then go back later and "complete" there work at times.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:18 pm

Face it... You are wrong and I am right and thats the end of it...

Play whichever version you prefer.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:38 pm

Strider77 wrote:I would bet money I could have these games I listed running in a cab and folks would not know they were home ports if the game was being played (title screen with options would give it away).

I have to agree with Strider77 on this, as I've documented this very thing at the bay area shmupmeets. I had both DDPDOJ and ESPGaluda ports and PCBs running in cabs side by side, even had 2 players start a game at the same time. Identical in look and feel (of course discounting the graphical static bug).

But determining what is "best" is subjective, as you both obviously care about different things. And turning this into a PCB elitiest thing is also absurd.

ill6 · Post by **ill6** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:32 pm

I wasn't trying to be elitest I was trying to be funny... I think people get overly excited by this kind of stuff to be honest. Should just play the games (but it kills time at work I guess).

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:14 pm

ESPGaluda and DOj both have a VERY noticeable graphics glitch in them which is not present in the PS2 (it's a PGM hardware glitch, not exactly Cave's fault). For most, that would make it a better port. Then you've got Arrange mode which is like a whole new game to consider.

it runs on the same hardware as both DOJ and ESPGaluda which Arika have experience in porting to the PS2

In the same blog entry he also stated, "don't simply dismiss it as possible b/c it 'runs on the same hardware'".

And as for "better ports". None of the Naomi ports are discernable from their original arcade version, other than a few screens and menus. There is no emulation and the only code differences is thae added stuff for said extra screens and menus. In essence, it is the exact same game, just aimed for consumer hardware. For the ones that have extra modes, it's safe that we can call these a better package/value. The only trick is playing them in a cab (which is still possible, actually).

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:35 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
it runs on the same hardware as both DOJ and ESPGaluda which Arika have experience in porting to the PS2
In the same blog entry he also stated, "don't simply dismiss it as possible b/c it 'runs on the same hardware'".

Oh certainly, by no means does it make the port a done deal. We all know that Cave love to customize each piece of hardware they drop a program onto. That, and Mihara did state that ESPGaluda was still a total pain to port... but that the job went smoother than when they had ported DOJ due to the prior experience with porting the arcade hardware to the PS2.

I would think that with 2 out of 3 games ported that run on said hardware that Arika would have more of a focus on how to do the job (they could certainly do a better job than Cave).

roker · Post by **roker** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:16 am

CIT wrote:I don't agree with the axiom that the PCB is always better.

Battle Garegga, SAT

...all examples where the console version is actually better than the PCB, imo, due to great extra modes, missing glitches, etc.

there aren't any extras in BG besides the arranged music (all ships and such are on the PCB via codes or dip switch)

and, I don't think there's a TRUE tate mode for it BG saturn either

for some reason it seems as though some of the screen gets cut off on the left

can anyone confirm or deny this?

I'd rather have the PCB of that game for sure[/u]

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:18 am

roker wrote:there aren't any extras in BG besides the arranged music (all ships and such are on the PCB via codes or dip switch)

Superplays, extra control options, stage attack mode, wait control...

As for the screen thing, I haven't played enough of the arcade version to comment, but if there's any such difference it's not enough to affect the game's playability.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:22 am

Spicey
LMAO @ the "Cave PCB prices are coming down" clan... the artwork is even copied!

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:07 am

GaijinPunch wrote:No, bad port. A 3rd party did near undiscernable ports of the two previous Cave games, (and had way more content to boot). Cave did these ports, which is unforgiveable. Certainly this doesn't bother everyone, especially for a $60 game, but some of us only buy a handful of games a year, and want to see effort put into them. In gaming terms, old farts such as myself at the ripe old age of 31 cringe at what some companies do to appease the young and/or unattentive gaming population. Cave is the last company putting out games similar to what we grew up on. If you're a stickler for quality, the Mushi & Ibara ports are just heartbreaking.

I have not in all my forum-time-wasting come across a post that better summed up my feelings about the current games industry.

I needed to quote this just to make sure people read it more than once.

As a child I once fantasised about gaming becoming mainstream and what amazing results I would see from all the money associated with it being poured into the medium. Unfortunately I failed to realise that with mainstream gaming comes the ADD-stricken mainstream games players for which games are now entirely aimed at, leaving the rest of us craving the niche brilliance of days gone by.

Strider77 wrote:So in other words besides the resolution (wich isn't perfect but is certainly better than Mushi) and lack of slowdown.... you think it's awful b/c the lack of black label....

I think thats a bit harsh...

Mushihime Sama and Ibara suffer from the same substandard graphics issues on the home ports. The difference being that Mushihime Sama has Cave-style big fat bullets that are relatively easy to see even with the horrid scaled, interlaced graphics. Ibara on the other hand is typical Raizing style tiny, fast-moving bullets. On anything but clear progressive-scan monitors, it makes the game utterly headache-inducing within minutes of playing.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:27 am

elvis wrote:As a child I once fantasised about gaming becoming mainstream and what amazing results I would see from all the money associated with it being poured into the medium. Unfortunately I failed to realise that with mainstream gaming comes the ADD-stricken mainstream games players for which games are now entirely aimed at, leaving the rest of us craving the niche brilliance of days gone by.

I'm not sure someone who has ADD would enjoy something he needs 60 long, boring hours to get through

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:33 am

Those goddamn mainstreamers are at it again. Rascals. Beatles and Zep were the shittiest bands ever.

I still don't have a satisfactory score on any of my existing Cave homeports

I'd rather have scaling and filtering than no port, myself.

for some reason it seems as though some of the screen gets cut off on the left

can anyone confirm or deny this?

It happens to me too when I'm using Svideo. If someone can help us with this it'd be a beaut as I'll have my TV here soon and I could start playing Garegga again...I almost had my old score beaten before school started.

RGB no problems, even with the old nonadjustable commodore

Maybe a mod could split this into a separate thread?

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:49 am

After reading the last 10 posts, I found that there is about 5 different discussions going on in here

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:56 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:After reading the last 10 posts, I found that there is about 5 different discussions going on in here

Here at shmups.com, we like a bit of variety.

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:02 am

Twiddle wrote:I'm not sure someone who has ADD would enjoy something he needs 60 long, boring hours to get through

Hence why they get to shoot a cop in the face every 10 minutes to alleviate the boredom.

roker · Post by **roker** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:50 am

Neon wrote:It happens to me too when I'm using Svideo. If someone can help us with this it'd be a beaut as I'll have my TV here soon and I could start playing Garegga again...I almost had my old score beaten before school started.

RGB no problems, even with the old nonadjustable commodore

Maybe a mod could split this into a separate thread?

is it only with S-vid?

I'd hate to go back to composite

it looks like shit

PCB > Port

sorry, BG is meant to be played in a nice cab or supergun

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:59 am

sorry, BG is meant to be played in a nice cab or supergun

The cab part I can buy, but to which I would say "just stick your Saturn in the cab". The supergun comment just confuses me though. Why not just got an Ultimarc arcade video card and stick the computer in a cab? Goes back to the statement of the ports being undiscernable.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:22 am

PCB > Port

Only thing PCB has on it are the loading times and those are like 2 seconds. Minor downsampling and the stage 1 tanks if you want to be really picky.

Like BM said it has score attack mode (which makes stage one's medals actually usable), AST, custom controls so you don't accidentally fuck up your autofire, score saving, no slowdown, red ball, shrapnel on/off, one of the best ports ever. I don't get not liking something that rocks this much face and I might have to fight you in real life should we meet to determine who's right about this. I bet I'd win.

No other comments on, shit, what was this thread originally about? Can we split it if it's not too much effort? Sorry