The issue of ship speed

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:23 pm

Just how important is ship speed? Fast ships allow you to move quickly, but you lose a little bit of precise movement because your ship "oversteers" and tight bullet patterns can be a problem. Slow ships are great for bullet hell, but sometimes I wish the ship was a little faster so I can dodge that bullet or grab that out of reach powerup. (It's maddening to watch a max value medal float away and break your medal chain because your ship so too damn slow).

Speedup powerups are evil, in my opinion. Collect too many and your ship zips around the field like it was being flown by a crack addict. This is more of an issue in horzis because you have the scencery to worry about as well. Gear shifting, however, is nice because I can choose what speed I need my ship to me.

I usually just use a ship with medium speed; fast enough to collect powerups and medals and quickly get away, but slow enough to be able to manuver bullet hells easily.

What's your take on ship speed?

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:45 pm

I never think too much about this when playing a game, but it's always a problem whem developing a shmup.

In my previous shmup, Space Disorder, there is a Speed-up powerup, which also plays a role in scoring, but indeed in max speed the ship was very fast (Great in certain spots, but certain death in other ones), so the speedup power up became a Max speed power up. This way you just raise your max speed when you collect, but you could switch the speed of your ship "on the fly"

For the game I am currently working, I have a button to just slowdown the ship, but I'll change this to a "gear shift", having 3 different speed.

I'd like to hear more about this subject too.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:49 pm

Let's see...what's my canned response for this one...

Oh yeah...

On-the-fly speed selection is best. Also good is a slowdown button...Esprade and the Touhou series.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:53 pm

Damocles wrote:On-the-fly speed selection is best. Also good is a slowdown button...Esprade and the Touhou series.

Make that two cans.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:13 am

Nice topic!

It depends on the game. For instance, the fixed speed (since you can only choose between the identical two ships) in Ikaruga suits the game, whereas I wouldn`t want to give away the extremely wide speed range in Batrider.

IMO there should be a relation between bullet speed and ship speed - having very quick characters in ultra-slow barrage games like the Touhou ones always seemed weird to me; if you die most of the time of running into bullets instead of being hit by them then the relation is wrong. In Batrider you can either outrun the aimed shots or slip through them. And in Dangun Feveron, everything besides the max speed will cause a huge loss in score opportunities.

And to answer your initial question, ship speed is as important as any other aspect of a shmup, maybe even a bit more - if you can`t control your ship in a way that fits the game then you can basically forget it. In Gradius Advance you were either a bit too slow or a bit too fast, which broke the game for me (unlike in other Gradius games).

D · Post by D » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:02 am

I always tried to list the different ship speeds.
Usually indeed slower ships have more firepower.
I guess in the beggining when playing a game for the first couple of times I'd recommend a fast ship (low firepower)
But as you progress you will find that you need more firepower, so then you can switch to slower ships with more firepower, because also you are more comfortable with the patterns.

CodeMonkey · Post by **CodeMonkey** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:23 pm

It often feels to me that having a ship that is roughly the same speed as most of the bullets is the proper relationship. Not that you can't have faster bullets or slower bullets too, but in general if a wave of bullets is coming at me and I can move out from beneath it by moving the same direction it is going and diagonal then I am happy.

I have to admit I haven't played any games with a button just for shifting speed. I guess the closest I have been to speed changes are speed powerups in Gradius, and the speed control you get in DoDonPachi and ESPGaluda by using beam attacks or time slow down(sorry I know there is a name for the time slowdown but I don't have it off the top of my head.)

Does Batrider let you select speed? Also somebody mentioned Espade and Touhou for slowdown buttons? Any other games I should check out with this feature?

Edit: It also occurs to me there is a relationship between the speed of the ship and the space between the bullets for hit detection. Basically you need to be able to tap the controller or the stick at least once or twice between bullets without dying to feel like you have room to move around maybe.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:09 pm

I generally perfer when shmups give you a variable speed control, or where the speed is constant & you don't have to have powerups. Somewhat less preferable are shmups where you only really need a single powerup to be at near-optimal speed.

What gets really frustrating is when shmups allow too many levels of speed up (like Gradius) where when your ship becomes too fast, you lose all ability for precision & you end up running into things all the time.

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:49 pm

I don't want to have to to think about ship speed. The developer should figure out the speed which they think is most playable and then leave it. Darius Gaiden is a horizontal shooter with no speed power-ups and no speed shift but the speed of your ship is always appropriate. Everyone else should take a cue from this game and others like it.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:19 am

I can't play good when on max ship speed. Take Border Down for example. I always stay on the medium speed. It's comfortable for me because I can dodge bullets easily while shooting enemies down at the same time. I tend to hit the walls alot when trying to play in max speed, especially in levels with scrolling walls, such as level 2 and I think level 4.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:49 am

It really depends on how the game is built, but in games like Raiden Fighters where you have to adjust your strategy based on your ship's speed, I find that the slower ships force you into a very tight path that you can't afford to stray from else your score falters due to missing opportunities easier than fast ships, or you die if you aren't fully prepared for a pattern obviously designed for a faster ship.

sideshow · Post by **sideshow** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:37 am

I just know that the gradius games give you the option to speed up very fast. I usually just go for one or two speed boosts and thats it. Its really easy to accidentally run into enemy fire when you speed boost is up the wazoo.

rib · Post by **rib** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:55 pm

i think its a matter of your personal feeling.
for example, i generally have bigger feel of control if the ship is a bit faster, like speed 4 in radirgy. on the other hand i hate the slow raiden 3 ship speed a little.
sure it also depends on the game style itself.
a very nice feature is the "slower when shooting" effect in some games because with it you can play more flexible in certain situations.
for example if there are a lot of bullets on screen you shoot to move slower and more precise and if you need to get fast from the left to the middle you leave the button and get faster there.
i love it in dodonpachi daioujou, when using the laser.

rib · Post by **rib** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:57 pm

Andi wrote:I don't want to have to to think about ship speed. The developer should figure out the speed which they think is most playable and then leave it. Darius Gaiden is a horizontal shooter with no speed power-ups and no speed shift but the speed of your ship is always appropriate. Everyone else should take a cue from this game and others like it.

thats exactly what i think.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:52 am

Image Fight is an early game with a button devoted to ship speed, and I've wondered whether different parts of the game require different speeds for survival. I haven't gotten very far in the game yet-- so far I just stick to speed 2.

Post by **Icarus** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:05 am

professor ganson wrote:Image Fight is an early game with a button devoted to ship speed, and I've wondered whether different parts of the game require different speeds for survival. I haven't gotten very far in the game yet-- so far I just stick to speed 2.

Yes. It does.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:36 am

rib wrote:
Andi wrote:I don't want to have to to think about ship speed. The developer should figure out the speed which they think is most playable and then leave it. Darius Gaiden is a horizontal shooter with no speed power-ups and no speed shift but the speed of your ship is always appropriate. Everyone else should take a cue from this game and others like it.
thats exactly what i think.

Well, while I agree to some extend, I never heard anyone complain about the ship speeds in DoDonpachi for instance. Nobody would play A-L if it was as slow as type C. But that is for keeping a balance. Speed-powerups and selectable speed (a la Musha Aleste) is a whole different story. I don`t mind different speeds if they are tied to certain ships. In Dangun Feveron for instance you can basically forget the two slowest ship speeds for serious gameplay. And when nobody ever plays Gradius on the slowest ship speed, why punishing the player with sluggish movement after each death?

Caves button-slowdown is a mixed bag to me. In Progear you trigger a totally different firing mode that is essential for scoring; so there might be moments you wish to slow down but you don`t want to go into gunner mode (iirc), while the slowdown is sometimes really heavy, depending on your ship type. Slowing down WITHOUT triggering a different kind of attack like in EspRaDe is totally sweet, on the other hand. You can really feel how the level design is made for both fast and slow speeds in mind.

Overall I prefer quick ships for light, tapping d-pad movements - I always tend to press the pad stupidly hard with slow ships as if I wanted to convince them to move faster.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:12 pm

Icarus wrote:
professor ganson wrote:Image Fight is an early game with a button devoted to ship speed, and I've wondered whether different parts of the game require different speeds for survival. I haven't gotten very far in the game yet-- so far I just stick to speed 2.
Yes. It does.

I'll try my other computer, but so far no luck downloading this one. Thanks, though.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:50 pm

sideshow wrote:I just know that the gradius games give you the option to speed up very fast. I usually just go for one or two speed boosts and thats it. Its really easy to accidentally run into enemy fire when you speed boost is up the wazoo.

When that damn speed zone comes, it's time to load up though- I'll usually jack it up to 4 or 5. At least Gradius lets you go back to initial speed if you take enough speedups.

Personally though, I do prefer variable speed control (ESPRaDe counts, since you can use the hold-down shot to move slower if needed). Border Down and the TF series do this right- where you can cut speed to navigate thicker groups of bullets. R-Type Delta made an improvement over the past titles by adding a speed button. I think Gradius VI should add in variable speed control. Sometimes you can be SOL in the existing Gradius games if you lose all your speed.

shiftace · Post by **shiftace** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:49 pm

Having a dedicated button for speed control is clearly the best answer, but I have this bad habit of ignoring such controls most of the time. I really like games in which using different attacks affects your speed though.

Making it easy to speed up and hard to speed down, or vice versa, is just annoying.

When there are selectable ships with different speeds, I generally like to err too fast rather than too slow. The penalty for being too fast is difficulty with control; but this seems like a very basic skill that can be practiced and transferred to almost any game. The penalty for being too slow is that you can't reach things across the screen as fast, and the main way to ameliorate this is by memorization. That can be fun too, but I like the other situation more.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:13 am

I mostly agree with the general consensus: it depends on the speed and density of enemy fire, and variable speed is nice (I like how Cave does it). I usually opt for slower ships because I really, really suck at making small precision movements. I can envision the moves I have to make, but I always slip up. About 95% of my shooter deaths are caused by pure clumsiness.

Are there any shmups that have a sort of "boost" button, like the shmup level in Gunstar Heroes? To me that'd be a great solution, having the tight control of a slower ship, but the ability to dash to another part of the screen when necessary (or would that make things too easy?)

Post by **Ghegs** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:20 am

Davey wrote:Are there any shmups that have a sort of "boost" button, like the shmup level in Gunstar Heroes? To me that'd be a great solution, having the tight control of a slower ship, but the ability to dash to another part of the screen when necessary (or would that make things too easy?)

There's one in "Shooter: Space Shot" which does exactly that and also works as a way to increase score (by destroying enemies with the boost's backlash you increase a multiplier). Sadly the game itself is very subpar.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:50 am

On-the-fly speed selection is best

I agree with this along with being able to do this in the pause screen, like Thunder Force

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:19 am

Are there any shmups that have a sort of "boost" button, like the shmup level in Gunstar Heroes?

yeah.... rayxanber 2 on the pc engine had this, i dunno about 3

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:28 am

Hellfire pisses me off.

Speed ups appear in tight places and your forced to pick them up.

I noticed on G5 there is a maze section where you need a speed up boost, personlly don't like going that fast. You should be able to shoot speed up icons.