Replays = legit?

[Twiddle]

a true falsificare score would be 99999999

[Icarus]

a true falsificare score would be 99999999

Real men don't use continues. ^_-

[Rob]

replay plz

[Icarus]

replay plz

You're not allowed to watch replays remember?
Its cheating. ^_-

[Nemo]

I'm saying outside of this competition. A sport for instance, depending on where it's played, can have slightly different rules to facilitate the best form of competition for that group.

Weren't you saying "in this competition" about five posts ago?
Make up your mind.

In this competition I'm saying a standard rule of play should be followed, but I'm not trying to force anyone to adhere to any style of play outside of this competition. I'm also not going to imply people are scared, but I don't understand why there's such a clinging to the usage of replays, especially since a portion of people have argued they provide very little benefit.

And just for the record, I never equated the usage of replays with cheating, I only eaquted it with creating an imbalanced playing field.

[Icarus]

In this competition I'm saying a standard rule of play should be followed, but I'm not trying to force anyone to adhere to any style of play outside of this competition.

Christ on a crutch.

How the hell are you going to enforce this so-called "standard rule of play" if you are unable to monitor all 90+ players in real-time, then? That's one question you've skipped over, for the past four pages.

I'm also not going to imply people are scared, but I don't understand why there's such a clinging to the usage of replays, especially since a portion of people have argued they provide very little benefit.

Benefit or not, thats up to the player to decide. That has nothing to do with you.

And just for the record, I never equated the usage of replays with cheating, I only eaquted it with creating an imbalanced playing field.

The tone of all your past posts implies otherwise.

You've got a whole lot of "I'm not forcing people to do this, but I think you shouldn't" going on in here. Sounds quite contradictory to me.

[DEL]

Ghegs wrote;

Silliness. Just because I watch somebody blast through the game doesn't mean I can do it myself.

Of course, and this has been proved to be true - did you see anyone scoring 68-72mil on Blazing Star at the end of the week? = no.


I view the Replay issue as this; the Japanese players can stand behind each other in the arcades & watch & learn. This is in effect 'a live replay'. So why enforce an additional handicap on ourselves?

Its all in personal choice as to whether you choose to view a replay before playing. For the record, I purposely did not view any Batsugun Special replays on my way up to the Counter Stop. Of course this gave me a better sense of achievement, because I knew I had done it without replay assistance.
This said however, I have no problem at all with replay viewing.

[LUNardei]

Your italian is rough guys. Watch other guys using italian doesn't mean you can do it yourself

[Randorama]

Omg this thread is fake, ban every1 plz

*goes to see replays of every single game under the sun*

[Damocles]

Hell, I just enjoy watching other people play games sometimes. Sometimes I don't feel like playing, just watching. Considering that very few people play around here, vids are about the only way I can do this. Then again, if I pick something up along the way, great.

[Nemo]

How the hell are you going to enforce this so-called "standard rule of play" if you are unable to monitor all 90+ players in real-time, then? That's one question you've skipped over, for the past four pages.

Actually, I answered it a number of times. How are we able to monitor who is using "save states" during their runs or what difficulty level they have the game set to? We can't. This whole competition is based on honesty.

I'm also not going to imply people are scared, but I don't understand why there's such a clinging to the usage of replays, especially since a portion of people have argued they provide very little benefit.

Benefit or not, thats up to the player to decide. That has nothing to do with you.

It does have something to do with the tournament though. If a majority of people agreed for the sake of the tournament we should disable the usage of replays, some people wouldn't like it, but everyone would ultimately abide by it.

And just for the record, I never equated the usage of replays with cheating, I only eaquted it with creating an imbalanced playing field.

The tone of all your past posts implies otherwise.

You've got a whole lot of "I'm not forcing people to do this, but I think you shouldn't" going on in here. Sounds quite contradictory to me.

It's surely not that difficult to differentiate between two nature of two situations, a tournament and how you choose to play by your lonesome. I have no qualms about "forcing" people to play a certain way in a tournament for the greater good, especially when this causes no disadvantage to the players who use replays, but their usage does cause a disavantage to the players who don't.

[Icarus]

It does have something to do with the tournament though. If a majority of people agreed for the sake of the tournament we should disable the usage of replays, some people wouldn't like it, but everyone would ultimately abide by it.

Ahahaha. Quote above, see quote below.

How are we able to monitor who is using "save states" during their runs or what difficulty level they have the game set to? We can't. This whole competition is based on honesty.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have no qualms about "forcing" people to play a certain way in a tournament for the greater good, especially when this causes no disadvantage to the players who use replays, but their usage does cause a disavantage to the players who don't.

But I do have a qualm with your views, as I think they are wrong to begin with. Its like forcing a world record sprinter to wait two seconds after the sound of the gun just to "balance the playing field". Its like forcing a rule on Chelsea FC that they can only buy players that are rated at £5mil or less, to "balance the playing field". Its like forcing a world heavyweight boxer to stand there for three rounds and not do anything, taking all the hits on the chin, to "balance the playing field". There will always be people stronger, faster, smarter, better than others due to experience and training, cutting out a training method for one week just to balance that out does not work, because those players that are skilled and experienced will always have an advantage over those that don't.

Rules that promote fairness, such as proofing and other verification methods are all fine. But rules that force players to deny themselves the information needed to improve their own skills and methods through study and practice is wrong. You might as well tell Roger Federer that he is not allowed to practice his sport until one day before the start of his next match, just to allow the rest of his competitiors the chance to catch up.

While I have no problem with the idea of promoting fair play, I also believe that players should be free to use whatever methods they desire to learn, and that includes the use of guides and replays. As I've said many times so far (as have many others), the resources are there, and it is up to the player to decide if they are worth his/her time or not. Denying a player a particular resource is not "creating a balanced playing field", its creating imbalance, as a player may wish to use that resource but has been denied access to it.

Also, you know what the greater good is? Doing your own thing, and not worrying about how other people do theirs. I think I'll take my own advice from here on in.

Now where's that Ibara replay DVD?

[Triple Lei]

/Got nothin'

[Nemo]

It does have something to do with the tournament though. If a majority of people agreed for the sake of the tournament we should disable the usage of replays, some people wouldn't like it, but everyone would ultimately abide by it.

Ahahaha. Quote above, see quote below.

How are we able to monitor who is using "save states" during their runs or what difficulty level they have the game set to? We can't. This whole competition is based on honesty.

If it wasn't completely obvious, the point I was making is that people on these forum are ultimately honest. Apparently you disagree?

But I do have a qualm with your views, as I think they are wrong to begin with. Its like forcing a world record sprinter to wait two seconds after the sound of the gun just to "balance the playing field". Its like forcing a rule on Chelsea FC that they can only buy players that are rated at £5mil or less, to "balance the playing field". Its like forcing a world heavyweight boxer to stand there for three rounds and not do anything, taking all the hits on the chin, to "balance the playing field". There will always be people stronger, faster, smarter, better than others due to experience and training, cutting out a training method for one week just to balance that out does not work, because those players that are skilled and experienced will always have an advantage over those that don't.

The funny thing is all these examples are wrong in terms of criticism about my view, yet are perfect for criticizing yours. You're the one that wants to give people a "two second headstart" or "get in 3 rounds of punches while your opponent stands there" by allowing the usage of replays. The playing field is as balanced as possible once a game is chosen and placed in front of people and left to themselves to conquer. You start to create an imbalance when you throw in outside, artificial devices that allow some people to get ahead. The purest form of competition as I described is about deciding who is the strongest, fastest, smartest, best. Your form of competition is about who can use the most shortcuts to compensate for a lack of talent.

Rules that promote fairness, such as proofing and other verification methods are all fine. But rules that force players to deny themselves the information needed to improve their own skills and methods through study and practice is wrong. You might as well tell Roger Federer that he is not allowed to practice his sport until one day before the start of his next match, just to allow the rest of his competitiors the chance to catch up.

This is just silly. Roger Federer isn't given a video before his match that shows everything that will happen during his match. You act as if replays are some kind of necessity, when all they are is someone else's finished product. Someone else solved the game without this "necessary information", so why can't you?

While I have no problem with the idea of promoting fair play, I also believe that players should be free to use whatever methods they desire to learn, and that includes the use of guides and replays. As I've said many times so far (as have many others), the resources are there, and it is up to the player to decide if they are worth his/her time or not. Denying a player a particular resource is not "creating a balanced playing field", its creating imbalance, as a player may wish to use that resource but has been denied access to it.

And we should also allow athletes to use steroids because the resource is there, and denying them the use of steroids would be creating an imbalanced playing field. Don't you see how backwards your thought process is? Your whole kick is an equal playing field is where less skilled players are equal to the more skilled players by allowing them to use external artificial means to compensate for their deficieny in talent, when the purpose of competition in the first place is to decide who the most skilled players are.

[Twiddle]

your arguments get progressively worse

[Rob]

The purest form of competition as I described is about deciding who is the strongest, fastest, smartest, best.

Well we know who the most joyless is.

[Icarus]

Goddamnit, I need some paracetamol.

If it wasn't completely obvious, the point I was making is that people on these forum are ultimately honest. Apparently you disagree?

People are honest. However, why add a rule which ultimately cannot be monitored?
Apparently you are incapable of getting that point.

The playing field is as balanced as possible once a game is chosen and placed in front of people and left to themselves to conquer. You start to create an imbalance when you throw in outside, artificial devices that allow some people to get ahead. The purest form of competition as I described is about deciding who is the strongest, fastest, smartest, best. Your form of competition is about who can use the most shortcuts to compensate for a lack of talent.

People will be using these artificial devices anyway whether they realise it or not. Replays aren't just the only form of information you know. The only way you can ever hope to create this "perfect competition" you believe exists somewhere out there in the ether is if you not only stop replays from being used but also stop people from using the Strategy Forum, and stop them from exchanging tips subconsciously through general discussion.

Somehow I very much doubt you can do that, or if anyone really gives a flying fuck in the end. People will use what they require to learn the necessary techniques. You only cause people who wish to learn unnecessary inconvenience by imposing restrictions on their personally selected learning methods.

Geez, I was right. This is a "this is what I believe and you're a bastard if you disagree with me" thread.

You act as if replays are some kind of necessity, when all they are is someone else's finished product. Someone else solved the game without this "necessary information", so why can't you?

I don't view them as a necessity, I view them as entertainment. And I have solved a great majority of games under my own skill. I don't need to prove myself to you. Why can't you just let people play the way they want?

And we should also allow athletes to use steroids because the resource is there, and denying them the use of steroids would be creating an imbalanced playing field. Don't you see how backwards your thought process is? Your whole kick is an equal playing field is where less skilled players are equal to the more skilled players by allowing them to use external artificial means to compensate for their deficieny in talent, when the purpose of competition in the first place is to decide who the most skilled players are.

What the hell have you been smoking??

What has steroids got to do with replays? One thing grants an increase in mental and physical strength and is proven to create an imbalanced playing field, while the other is just visual stimulus that may not even give the viewer the necessary information to improve their skills.

How many people have said in this thread that replays might not be as beneficial to a player as you seem to believe? Or are you just selectively reading what you want to read? Do you actually read other people's posts here?

[Neon]

I may be dumb, but I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong about things...just a thought

[Rob]

Would anyone hate me if I admitted that Nemo is my joke account?

[ArrogantBastard]

Oh Nemo-chan...

[Twiddle]

Would anyone hate me if I admitted that Nemo is my joke account?

You'd have better acting than most other joke accounts, then.

[Icarus]

Mmmmm...

[landshark]

Mmmmm...

YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!!!!!

Rock on Icarus!

[Randorama]

Purest form of gaming+ rank as a perversion of nature= eugenetics of videogames?

[incognoscente]

The only way you can ever hope to create this "perfect competition" you believe exists somewhere out there in the ether is if you not only stop replays from being used but also stop people from using the Strategy Forum, and stop them from exchanging tips subconsciously through general discussion.

And have a game specifically made for the competition whose creator cannot participate and cannot divulge any scoring information.


teehee

[Shatterhand]

Would anyone hate me if I admitted that Nemo is my joke account?

So Feka USA team should be disqualified, as they signed the same player twice under different names.

I knew you guys were cheating since the start. Damn replay-watchers.


I watched the Blazing Star replay 26 times. It obviously shows with my ranked 17th 21 million score....

[Dave_K.]

The only way you can ever hope to create this "perfect competition" you believe exists somewhere out there in the ether is if you not only stop replays from being used but also stop people from using the Strategy Forum, and stop them from exchanging tips subconsciously through general discussion.

And have a game specifically made for the competition whose creator cannot participate and cannot divulge any scoring information.

I think Nemo has taken this concept of a perfect competition to the extreme, but is interesting to think about none the less. This could only be possible if we lived in Japan when location tests were announced. Or maybe if a new console port was made of something that hasn't been widely played in the arcades (like Radilgy or Trizeal was). Seeing who can figure out the game systems the fastest to obtain the highest scores in isolation, for like the first few days after it was released... In this type of competition, I'd have to think Icarus and Kiken would kick all our asses!

[Nemo]

People are honest. However, why add a rule which ultimately cannot be monitored?
Apparently you are incapable of getting that point.

Why do I feel like I'm going in circles? No one here is able to monitor anything anyone is doing in this competition, like I stated a number of times, how can we monitor who is using "savestates" or just making up fake scores?

People will be using these artificial devices anyway whether they realise it or not. Replays aren't just the only form of information you know. The only way you can ever hope to create this "perfect competition" you believe exists somewhere out there in the ether is if you not only stop replays from being used but also stop people from using the Strategy Forum, and stop them from exchanging tips subconsciously through general discussion.

I agree we should bar the usage of the strategy guides during competition.

I don't view them as a necessity, I view them as entertainment. And I have solved a great majority of games under my own skill. I don't need to prove myself to you. Why can't you just let people play the way they want?

LOL, entertainment? You've been carrying on for 3 pages to defend entertainment? I highly doubt that. You need replays or else you wouldn't use them.

What has steroids got to do with replays? One thing grants an increase in mental and physical strength and is proven to create an imbalanced playing field, while the other is just visual stimulus that may not even give the viewer the necessary information to improve their skills.

Can't you understand the analogy? No one is saying steroids have the same effect on the body as replays, but what I'm saying is both devices have the same effect in terms of creating an imbalanced field of play in their respective "sports".

How many people have said in this thread that replays might not be as beneficial to a player as you seem to believe? Or are you just selectively reading what you want to read? Do you actually read other people's posts here?

Actually a few posts ago I just stated this as a reason why there shouldn't be as much resistance to their barring as there seems to be. Time after time, however, you have accused me of trying to force people to play my way, which is completely ironic considering that's excatly what you're doing. Sure anyone who wants to use replays can use them so no one is restricted, but as soon as some people start using them then you force everyone to use them in order to create a level playing field. You keep saying that it should be for everyone to decide how they play, but it's already been established that replays give an immeasurable advantage, so the people who don't want to use replays ultimately have to lose or be that much better in order to win? That's just silly.

The only worthwhile argument I've seen so far was BulletMagnet's contention that the tournament isn't important enough to care. Which is fine, some people don't, but for a lot of people if they are going to put their time and effort into something they don't want it to be in vain, regardless if it's for "fun". To me the real reason why some people are so against the barring of replays (and all strategic information) is the fear of losing and being exposed. There are a lot of egos and "hotshots" around, and while these people would never admit it, if they were to come up limp in this tournament and lose to people like the "Loser Team" (no offense I love you guys ), they would look like fools. Some people are so used to using "external information" (replays and guides) as a crutch, they are basically naked without it.

I recall a topic about skill in which both Sik and Rob argued that the one who is best in a shooter is the one who plays it the most. If you consider that solving the game is part of being good at a shooter, this can't be true because some people lack the imagination to decipher and exploit a game, yet if you completely remove the solving aspect, then there is a level of truth to this idea.

[Rob]

I recall a topic about skill in which both Sik and Rob argued that the one who is best in a shooter is the one who plays it the most.

My memory gets worse daily, I can't remember that. I can only partially agree with myself here. Some people are much more efficient at improving than others.

[sikraiken]

I recall a topic about skill in which both Sik and Rob argued that the one who is best in a shooter is the one who plays it the most.

My memory gets worse daily, I can't remember that. I can only partially agree with myself here. Some people are much more efficient at improving than others.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 78&#113278

Also, to answer something from the above old thread (I could continue to argue the rest, including stuff on here, but I give up trying to change your mind): While I don't think everyone here -is- a Ninja Turtle, I DO believe everyone here has the potential to be a Ninja Turtle. No doubt.