Replays = legit?

[Rob]

If it doesn't help, as some people are claiming, then why do it?

Because everyone else does it. I don't want to whine about it or think they have that as an advantage.

[MrMonkeyMan]

Why don't we just make it a one credit only tournament?

[The Coop]

Um, I really hate to break the conversation here, by why did I get an E-mail notification for "Shooting Game Tournament 2006", and arrive at this thread which is clearly not it?

[Icarus]

LOL. Dunno. ¯\(°_o)/¯
Silly phpBB forum software has a habit of doing dumb stuff. ^_-

[Nemo]

If it doesn't help, as some people are claiming, then why do it?

Because everyone else does it.

This was exactly the next point I was going to bring up, that when you allow replays, you force other players to use them or compel them to use them to just to be able to compete. The biggest issue I see is the fact that there has no been negative stigma applied the use of replays. It's like people think shooters are hard so anything within 1-credit and defaults is fair game, while other ethics need to be considered. And it's not even as Rob put it:

I don't want to whine about it or think they have that as an advantage.

I don't care if someone has an advantage, for me it comes down to personal pride and accomplishment. I'm not sure why other people play shooters, but for me I enjoy the process of challenge and accomplishment, and the challenge comes from actually using my mind not just my thumbs. And how could I feel like I accomplished something if I got stuck in a game then watched how someone else did that part and copied them? I've mentioned this in the past, but the "skill" involved in shooters involves the mental as well as physical aspect. So to the point of an extremely detailed strategy guide that details an entire game, this is definitely breaches the line of replays, and the main concern isn't that they the make competitions unfair, but more or less pointless. Are we trying to see how skilled we are at shooters or who is the best at copying the most tactics from the 68 mil replay?

I'll put it this way, you know E=mc2 because you've had it explained in textbooks or you've been taught it, that doesn't make you a great scientist or anything. Imagine though if you were able to deduce E=mc2 yourself, you'd be considered a genius.

[Rob]

Um, I really hate to break the conversation here, by why did I get an E-mail notification for "Shooting Game Tournament 2006", and arrive at this thread which is clearly not it?

EMAIL NOTIFICATIONS WTF

It was part of that thread for a sec.

[Davey]

I'm not sure why other people play shooters, but for me I enjoy the process of challenge and accomplishment, and the challenge comes from actually using my mind not just my thumbs.

Hear, hear!

Actually, I don't mind other people using replays, but I don't see the point myself. But I'm a stubborn bastard who wants to figure out everything by himself.

<fanboyism>
You know, Kenta Cho Week would have rendered replays kinda useless. Just sayin'.
</fanboyism>

[zakk]

Jeez you are whiny.

Look, I think people who save state hard parts of games and then practice them over and over until they "know" it are as you put it "less honorable" than those who only do single credit playthroughs each time. I dont go making calls for them to stop doing it during competition nor do I starting moaning about the lack of "negative stigma"

You know why? Because then I would just look dumb.

[freddiebamboo]

I wasted my time by watching the Blazing Star replay. You have to work out fine details yourself in games like this

This is true.

Although I'd also say talking to other players has been the major factor in improving my score over the past few days.

We don't have arcades to go to where you can learn and swap ideas, superplays and forums are just a way to compensate for that.

[sikraiken]

I'm not sure why other people play shooters, but for me I enjoy the process of challenge and accomplishment, and the challenge comes from actually using my mind not just my thumbs.

You are still using your mind if you watch replays, or listen to people's advice. If it was so easy to just watch a replay, study it, and then be able to be that good, then I'd like to see someone do it. The fact of the matter is that it isn't, and there's a lot more to learning how a game is played than what a replay can show. While a good portion of whatever has to be done in a game can be learned through watching a replay (sometimes it's difficult, just because paths aren't apparent or are difficult to memorize), the thing that separates the boys from the men is execution. No matter the method of study, it's all about execution in the end. Can you do it?

Just an FYI - I enjoy the challenge of learning a game without replays. However, I think they are a helpful guide (that, players and guides made by players) in figuring out how I can best refine my gameplay after a while with the game (like what I am doing right, what I am doing better than them, what I can do better by watching/reading/whatever, etc).

[Daigoro]

I don't care if someone has an advantage, for me it comes down to personal pride and accomplishment.

of course you do, hence this topic.

as long as you dont use replay's your sense or pride and accomplishment will remain intact, whether other people use them or not. this topic is about whether using replays give an unfair advantage in this comp.




personally (and im not in the comp), even if i rewatched every replay 50 times i still would most likely wind up near or at the very bottom of the list of high scores every week.

im sure they would improve my understanding of the game and how to score, but i still dont have the skill or patience to replicate the things i have seen done in superplays.

[Twiddle]

can we delete the strategy forums at nemo's request they give players who bother to read them an unfair advantage

[Rastan78]

If developers thought that shmups would be played by solitary gamers figuring everything out on their own, the scoring systems and level design would have to be a lot more simple. This applies especially to most of the ultra- complex Japanese arcade shooters made from the mid-90's on. (Basically the games that are most played and talked about here)

Let's say you're a Japanese developer like IKD from Cave or Yagawa from Raizing/Cave. You want your game to be a tough nut to crack, but you realize that you're unleashing it into arcades that will hopefully be packed with expert level players trying to master your new game and sharing secrets and tricks. They also understand that there are a few freaks of nature who will figure out the near impossible stuff and lead the way for everyone else. I remember reading an interview with IKD where he seemed very conscious of this.

To say that somebody would be able to reach the level of a top notch superplay on their own without any guide or interaction is pretty naive. They throw a lot of stuff in there that would just be nearly impossible for a solitary gamer to uncover. Given the fact that we're playing games designed for a competitive/cooperative environment, why not try to learn about everything the game has to offer?

[Nemo]

I'm not sure why other people play shooters, but for me I enjoy the process of challenge and accomplishment, and the challenge comes from actually using my mind not just my thumbs.

You are still using your mind if you watch replays, or listen to people's advice. If it was so easy to just watch a replay, study it, and then be able to be that good, then I'd like to see someone do it. The fact of the matter is that it isn't, and there's a lot more to learning how a game is played than what a replay can show. While a good portion of whatever has to be done in a game can be learned through watching a replay (sometimes it's difficult, just because paths aren't apparent or are difficult to memorize), the thing that separates the boys from the men is execution. No matter the method of study, it's all about execution in the end. Can you do it?

Execution is one aspect of the shooter challenge/experience though. If you eliminated that you wouldn't even be playing the game, but that doesn't mean we should just skip or abbreviate the part where you learn the game.

The biggest thing I'm seeing with people is that they seem to have this idea they are competing with the Japanese (jnstead of with the Western world, outside of this competition), and since the Japanese have all these "tools" at their disposable it's only right we use replays and everything else to compensate for that. The fact of the matter is that 99.9% of us will never have a WR, so why "ruin" the experience (IMO) to try and reach some unrealistic plateau. But I guess it depends on your preference, whether you'd feel better about reaching a good score by yourself, or great score that isn't WR material with the aid of everything you can find.

I don't care if someone has an advantage, for me it comes down to personal pride and accomplishment.

of course you do, hence this topic.

Well I care for the sake of the competition. Personally I don't care because with or without replays I don't think my team would finish first (team morale -15), but at least at the end of the competition we would know who the most talented shooter players are.

To say that somebody would be able to reach the level of a top notch superplay on their own without any guide or interaction is pretty naive. They throw a lot of stuff in there that would just be nearly impossible for a solitary gamer to uncover. Given the fact that we're playing games designed for a competitive/cooperative environment, why not try to learn about everything the game has to offer?

I'm all for discussion and exchanging ideas, but not for handing out "blueprints". Why does everyone feel the need to reach WR status? Why not enjoy the game and facilitate competition within our own confines instead of trying to compete with people in a completely different environment that don't even know you exist.

[Dale]

I think watching super plays is just as legit as say a sport's team watching a vid of another sport's team playing as reference, or watching another sport player's play stlye for help.

[sikraiken]

I'm not sure why other people play shooters, but for me I enjoy the process of challenge and accomplishment, and the challenge comes from actually using my mind not just my thumbs.

You are still using your mind if you watch replays, or listen to people's advice. If it was so easy to just watch a replay, study it, and then be able to be that good, then I'd like to see someone do it. The fact of the matter is that it isn't, and there's a lot more to learning how a game is played than what a replay can show. While a good portion of whatever has to be done in a game can be learned through watching a replay (sometimes it's difficult, just because paths aren't apparent or are difficult to memorize), the thing that separates the boys from the men is execution. No matter the method of study, it's all about execution in the end. Can you do it?

Execution is one aspect of the shooter challenge/experience though. If you eliminated that you wouldn't even be playing the game, but that doesn't mean we should just skip or abbreviate the part where you learn the game.

The biggest thing I'm seeing with people is that they seem to have this idea they are competing with the Japanese (jnstead of with the Western world, outside of this competition), and since the Japanese have all these "tools" at their disposable it's only right we use replays and everything else to compensate for that. The fact of the matter is that 99.9% of us will never have a WR, so why "ruin" the experience (IMO) to try and reach some unrealistic plateau. But I guess it depends on your preference, whether you'd feel better about reaching a good score by yourself, or great score that isn't WR material with the aid of everything you can find.

As I said before, just watching cannot teach you everything. I think someone once told me back when I thought much like how you thought that I shouldn't try to "reinvent the wheel". I like reinventing the wheel though, but I now also like to look at other people's ideas eventually to try to get my wheel the best it can be (hopefully even better than everyone elses, as a goal). You aren't skipping the learning experience anyway. Yes, you can abbreviate it, but why not? Some people find fun in different things. Some like to try to get the highest score they possibly can, and that's fun for them, some like to just play for fun, and some... well you get the idea. Try to only watch a replay and then try to replicate that anyway, it's impossible to do it right away. You still need to put a lot of time into the game.

I don't think people necessarily think they are competing with the Japanese. And anyway, the only reason Japanese players hold world records is because of their dedication and the scene they have there. If we had a similar scene and dedication in other areas of the world surely you would see world records produced from these other places as well (and sometimes that has happened, just not necessarily with shooters). If people are interested in trying to get the best score they can, and they find fun in that, what is wrong with watching a replay, or talking to other players, or look at guides people have written? So what if you don't have fun in that, should everyone have to follow suit with you? I never thought so, even when I did not watch replays. I don't see any difference in a score that has been achieved by someone who's only played by themself versus someone who has watched replays, talked to other players, and looked at guides. Getting a WR is not unrealistic for anyone, but that's for another conversation entirely...

What doesn't make sense in my eyes (even now looking back at how even I thought too) is why do you want to do everything yourself, but still are interested in competing? Why bother even looking at people's scores? Why bother even being on this forum? I mean, competition is in a way not doing things on your own because you are seeing what other people are capable of, just not their methods of doing it. I'm not trying to push you away, I'm just curious.

From personal experience, if your interested in achieving the best score you possibly can and doing it all by yourself, it begins to be no fun at all. Getting better with the help of a group or even just a person only adds to the experience I think. I believe competition fuels improvement.

[Nemo]

I think watching super plays is just as legit as say a sport's team watching a vid of another sport's team playing as reference, or watching another sport player's play stlye for help.

The difference between shooter competitions and most other forms of competition is that in shooters you're playing against a predictable, never changing foe. Once you've learned a game, you've learned it, there's no way for the game to adjust like a human opponent can in say a basketball game. Every shooter essentially has an "ultimate score" and there's a singular path to that score, replays exist to show you that path.

As I said before, just watching cannot teach you everything. I think someone once told me back when I thought much like how you thought that I shouldn't try to "reinvent the wheel". I like reinventing the wheel though, but I now also like to look at other people's ideas eventually to try to get my wheel the best it can be (hopefully even better than everyone elses, as a goal). You aren't skipping the learning experience anyway. Yes, you can abbreviate it, but why not? Some people find fun in different things. Some like to try to get the highest score they possibly can, and that's fun for them, some like to just play for fun, and some... well you get the idea. Try to only watch a replay and then try to replicate that anyway, it's impossible to do it right away. You still need to put a lot of time into the game.

Certainly, I don't even believe watching replays creates great players. It can make good players better, but the truly great players have real skill and talent. They never had replays to use, they're the ones creating them. But the issue is in terms of our community where replays create a bigger disparity and steeper curve between the good players who don't use replays and everyone else who isn't as good.

From personal experience, if your interested in achieving the best score you possibly can and doing it all by yourself, it begins to be no fun at all. Getting better with the help of a group or even just a person only adds to the experience I think. I believe competition fuels improvement.

Absolutely, that's why I think this tournament is a great idea as long as it's legitimate. We're smart enough as a community to figure games out ourselves without turning to replays the instance we run into a "wall". But everyone wants the cliff notes and quick fix, because it's out there so we might as well use it, right? My issue with replays is it tells you the entire game, all the "answers" are there, so in reality you're not only hindering your personal growth as a player, you're also diminishing the need for community. When ever a question comes up about what to do in a game, "go watch a replay". Replays are actually counterproductive to a lot of what you're claiming they help create.

[sikraiken]

They never had replays to use, they're the ones creating them. But the issue is in terms of our community where replays create a bigger disparity and steeper curve between the good players who don't use replays and everyone else who isn't as good.

They do have groups to discuss gameplay and watch each other, though. I don't see how it's much different, just because they started it all and then made replays doesn't mean we can't use them. Who knows, maybe they record themselves and share it to the group? Being good is relative, I mean I could say being good is being WR material, or I could say it's beating the default high score.

I could stand behind you while you play DDP and tell you what you should be doing better on each part of each level. Or we could just be talking and I can tell you exactly what you have to do at any part of any stage. I think that's better than a replay because not only do you "see" it (in the sense of my explanation), but you can actually understand it. Should the WR holder's scores be put down a bit in the greatness they are just because they were often yielded from group experience? Should a score that I made by talking amongst my friends be put down a bit because of the group experience? What difference would it made if it was a replay? In either case, with or without replay, the same level of playing can be had.

Absolutely, that's why I think this tournament is a great idea as long as it's legitimate. We're smart enough as a community to figure games out ourselves without turning to replays the instance we run into a "wall". But everyone wants the cliff notes and quick fix, because it's out there so we might as well use it, right? My issue with replays is it tells you the entire game, all the "answers" are there, so in reality you're not only hindering your personal growth as a player, you're also diminishing the need for community. When ever a question comes up about what to do in a game, "go watch a replay". Replays are actually counterproductive to a lot of what you're claiming they help create.

This tournament is legitimate. Since replays do exist, we might as well use them if want to. I don't think it diminishes the need for community at all. Replays still require explanation and analysis, either by the player or by the community. You can get the same things from a replay you can from a community. If replays were the only source of explanation that people point towards, why are there so many game guides and explanations and posts about games on this board? As a matter of fact, I don't think many people look towards replays, but instead, look for actual human guidance for gameplay improvement. It just works better that way. I think replays help create a better community, actually. Think about what some people say about replays who have never played the games before. "Wow that's amazing" or "THEY HAVE NO LIFE" or "HE'S A CHEATER DUH". Sometimes that helps make a larger community. With players who have played the game before, I think it allows people to generate more discussion and competition because they see what's possible, not just through a score, but through action. Then they see it in their community. Replays haven't drastically changed the playing field, anyway. You don't see everyone getting WR scores, do you? I think a community will help yield WR scores a lot more than a single replay ever will.

[zlk]

Certainly, I don't even believe watching replays creates great players. It can make good players better, but the truly great players have real skill and talent. They never had replays to use, they're the ones creating them. But the issue is in terms of our community where replays create a bigger disparity and steeper curve between the good players who don't use replays and everyone else who isn't as good.

The top players in Japan play in arcades and watch each other play. They talk to each other. Some make webpages explaining their tactics. Some even trade tapes of each other playing to study and learn from.

[Gopher's Ambition]

At the risk of adding my small voice to the mix and accomplishing nothing but amplifying the background noise of conversation where everyone is talking and no one is listening...


The goal of a shooter isn't just to figure out a route, it is to execute it. You could have the greatest plan in the world, and yet you might never pull it off with your lack of reflexes. If all you needed was the route, then every fool on the internet would be out 1CCing every shooter and getting top scores. This is clearly not the case.

[Damocles]

Havn't we had this discussion about a half-dozen times before?

[sikraiken]

Havn't we had this discussion about a half-dozen times before?

I'm sure we repeat a lot of discussions over and over. They're still fun nonetheless.

[Rastan78]

Every shooter essentially has an "ultimate score" and there's a singular path to that score, replays exist to show you that path.

Wrong.

[Nemo]

I could stand behind you while you play DDP and tell you what you should be doing better on each part of each level. Or we could just be talking and I can tell you exactly what you have to do at any part of any stage. I think that's better than a replay because not only do you "see" it (in the sense of my explanation), but you can actually understand it. Should the WR holder's scores be put down a bit in the greatness they are just because they were often yielded from group experience? Should a score that I made by talking amongst my friends be put down a bit because of the group experience? What difference would it made if it was a replay? In either case, with or without replay, the same level of playing can be had.

This is all part of the experience though, because you still have an active participation. With replays you're saying screw the process, I just want the answers.

This tournament is legitimate. Since replays do exist, we might as well use them if want to. I don't think it diminishes the need for community at all. Replays still require explanation and analysis, either by the player or by the community. You can get the same things from a replay you can from a community. If replays were the only source of explanation that people point towards, why are there so many game guides and explanations and posts about games on this board? As a matter of fact, I don't think many people look towards replays, but instead, look for actual human guidance for gameplay improvement. It just works better that way. I think replays help create a better community, actually. Think about what some people say about replays who have never played the games before. "Wow that's amazing" or "THEY HAVE NO LIFE" or "HE'S A CHEATER DUH". Sometimes that helps make a larger community. With players who have played the game before, I think it allows people to generate more discussion and competition because they see what's possible, not just through a score, but through action. Then they see it in their community. Replays haven't drastically changed the playing field, anyway. You don't see everyone getting WR scores, do you? I think a community will help yield WR scores a lot more than a single replay ever will.

A lot of strat guides on this site, I was told, were written based on replays. We've been getting away from my original point though, I was never saying people shouldn't use replays, I was saying they shouldn't be used in this tournament. Everyone keeps worrying about picking games that there are no "veterans" of, to create an even playing field, yet people have no issue using replays which clearly when in used in conjunction with a game that doesn't have a lot of literature written about it will give some people a distinct advantage.

[Twiddle]

with a game like blazing star, which has quite a few secrets that are inaccessible by conventional ways of playing, you'd want to see how some of these secrets are executed and if they're worth the risk at your skill level. which strategy guides don't show very well.

however, most of the time, replays show things in rather obtuse ways and sometimes obscure them, which is an advantage strategy guides have over replays.

but let's just delete the strategy forums as well because they give players who read them an unfair advantage over those who don't bother

[sikraiken]

I could stand behind you while you play DDP and tell you what you should be doing better on each part of each level. Or we could just be talking and I can tell you exactly what you have to do at any part of any stage. I think that's better than a replay because not only do you "see" it (in the sense of my explanation), but you can actually understand it. Should the WR holder's scores be put down a bit in the greatness they are just because they were often yielded from group experience? Should a score that I made by talking amongst my friends be put down a bit because of the group experience? What difference would it made if it was a replay? In either case, with or without replay, the same level of playing can be had.

This is all part of the experience though, because you still have an active participation. With replays you're saying screw the process, I just want the answers.

This tournament is legitimate. Since replays do exist, we might as well use them if want to. I don't think it diminishes the need for community at all. Replays still require explanation and analysis, either by the player or by the community. You can get the same things from a replay you can from a community. If replays were the only source of explanation that people point towards, why are there so many game guides and explanations and posts about games on this board? As a matter of fact, I don't think many people look towards replays, but instead, look for actual human guidance for gameplay improvement. It just works better that way. I think replays help create a better community, actually. Think about what some people say about replays who have never played the games before. "Wow that's amazing" or "THEY HAVE NO LIFE" or "HE'S A CHEATER DUH". Sometimes that helps make a larger community. With players who have played the game before, I think it allows people to generate more discussion and competition because they see what's possible, not just through a score, but through action. Then they see it in their community. Replays haven't drastically changed the playing field, anyway. You don't see everyone getting WR scores, do you? I think a community will help yield WR scores a lot more than a single replay ever will.

A lot of strat guides on this site, I was told, were written based on replays. We've been getting away from my original point though, I was never saying people shouldn't use replays, I was saying they shouldn't be used in this tournament. Everyone keeps worrying about picking games that there are no "veterans" of, to create an even playing field, yet people have no issue using replays which clearly when in used in conjunction with a game that doesn't have a lot of literature written about it will give some people a distinct advantage.

I was going to write something long, but decided to just say something short. I'm pretty sure most of the strategy guides were written by players who know what they're talking about and have spend a decent amount of time with the game (this is just by looking over what guides are there and who wrote them).

Everyone has the opportunity to watch the replays if they want to. It doesn't seem like players this week gained a distinct advantage by watching any replays.

[BulletMagnet]

I was never saying people shouldn't use replays, I was saying they shouldn't be used in this tournament.

How exactly is one supposed to make that happen? If someone's played the game before and seen a replay of it, long before the tournament, such a prohibition's more or less moot...not to mention, of course, as has been said, that there's no way to stop people from practicing as they please anyway.

Obviously looking for games with "fewer veterans" is not going to be perfect either (there's always SOMEone who's had more experience on a game than most others), but such a policy (if one can call it that) is not the same thing as the replay issue. Replays involve, as you've said outright yourself, the issue of personal fulfillment, which, in my opinion, ought to be left to individual players to decide. Choosing a less popular game which most of the participants start on "equal footing" has nothing to do with fulfillment, it's an attempt to get less-played games into the spotlight and give as few as possible an advantage.

In short, you have to choose whether "honor" or high scores mean more to you: you really can't have it both ways, at least not completely. If you want to get the highest possible scores you can in a relatively short span of time (which is basically what this tournament's about), you'll likely have to watch some replays, since "raw" experimentation without aid takes longer. Some have chosen to do that. If, on the other hand, you'd rather not "spoil" games for yourself, tournament or no tournament, then take the longer road and do things yourself. Others have chosen to do this, myself included. So make your choice, and realize that you can't tell anyone else which choice is right or wrong. It's as simple as that. If "unlocking your potential" over longer spans of time and at your own pace appeals more to you, then stick to the high score threads, which don't have deadlines, and feel free to climb in the rankings as gradually as you'd prefer. In a limited engagement such as this, to do that you're going to have to sacrifice something, and whether you do or not is your choice, no one will get on your case about it either way: when trouble starts is when you don't respect the decisions of others on that same choice.

[Rob]

Nemo cares a lot about the integrity of the competition he's ignoring.

[Twiddle]

Maybe he's wondering why he can't get an eight digit score.

[sikraiken]

I think BulletMagnet put it into words best.