Replays = legit?

[Nemo]

I vote for ESPgaluda II for Cave week.

Sure buddy, but it'll never be chosen cause a measly 95% of people here can't play the game. Nice try. This would be the 1337.

What? Other people can't go down to their local arcade, or Dave's house?

For a serious question though, and this isn't meant to cause controversy. I know people like to use replays and have been using them thus far, but since this is a competition based on skill, shouldn't the use of replays be disallowed? However you feel about them, no one can disagree they give the player a distinct advantage (especially when you only have a week to play) or else no one would use them, so in essence what is the purpose of taking a test if it's an "open-book" test? I suppose if "everyone" is using them no one will agree with me, but I feel replays should be banned from this or any tournament. Obviously there is no way to monitor who is using and isn't using replays, so it would have to be based on the honor system.

[Ghegs]

For a serious question though, and this isn't meant to cause controversy. I know people like to use replays and have been using them thus far, but since this is a competition based on skill, shouldn't the use of replays be disallowed? However you feel about them, no one can disagree they give the player a distinct advantage (especially when you only have a week to play) or else no one would use them, so in essence what is the purpose of taking a test if it's an "open-book" test? I suppose if "everyone" is using them no one will agree with me, but I feel replays should be banned from this or any tournament.

Silliness. Just because I watch somebody blast through the game doesn't mean I can do it myself. At best it gives me ideas on how to approach the game or it can reveal some secrets (Blazing Star is not what I'd call "intuitive") and I imagine the latter part is what's bugging you. And if that's the case, we should delete all our Strategy section posts relating to the game and ask that nobody talk about the game with each other because it all gives some advantage.

That's how arcade-going people originally learned about the games' inner workings, after all. Watching other people play and talking about it. Time moves on and the ways of exchanging that information has changed, nothing more.

I'm sure we've had a thread about this already, let's see if I can dig it up...

[LUNardei]

That's how arcade-going people originally learned about the games' inner workings, after all. Watching other people play and talking about it. Time moves on and the ways of exchanging that information has changed, nothing more.

Word!

[Rob]

For a serious question though, and this isn't meant to cause controversy. I know people like to use replays and have been using them thus far, but since this is a competition based on skill, shouldn't the use of replays be disallowed? However you feel about them, no one can disagree they give the player a distinct advantage (especially when you only have a week to play) or else no one would use them, so in essence what is the purpose of taking a test if it's an "open-book" test? I suppose if "everyone" is using them no one will agree with me, but I feel replays should be banned from this or any tournament. Obviously there is no way to monitor who is using and isn't using replays, so it would have to be based on the honor system.

Download MAME, play Blazing Star.

[BulletMagnet]

@Nemo: I don't like watching replays very much myself (most of the time I like to figure stuff out "impromptu," for lack of a better word), but that said I don't see any reason why people should or shouldn't be required to practice/prepare how they see fit...someone might just as easily suggest that to better level the playing field everyone MUST watch superplays. We've got all sorts of players participating, some good at certain games, others more proficient at diffferent ones; some longtime shmuppers, some new ones; some playing/studying/focusing to raise their ranking however they have to, others just participating for fun. I personally see the competition as being against myself more than against anyone else or any other team, to see what I can accomplish using whatever methods (or lack thereof) that I've chosen, perhaps widening my horizons a bit, perhaps not. I say just play as best you can however you feel like, and let others do the same.

[Nemo]

Silliness. Just because I watch somebody blast through the game doesn't mean I can do it myself. At best it gives me ideas on how to approach the game or it can reveal some secrets (Blazing Star is not what I'd call "intuitive") and I imagine the latter part is what's bugging you. And if that's the case, we should delete all our Strategy section posts relating to the game and ask that nobody talk about the game with each other because it all gives some advantage.

That's how arcade-going people originally learned about the games' inner workings, after all. Watching other people play and talking about it. Time moves on and the ways of exchanging that information has changed, nothing more.

I'm sure we've had a thread about this already, let's see if I can dig it up...

I was expecting this argument, about the strategy sections, but that's different. The strategy sections are simply "instruction manuals" on how the game works and how one is expected to approach it. Unlike console games, arcade games don't come with manuals (except for the original one that comes with the PCB an it's usually in Japanese) so it's necessary. But these are simply words they don't tell you exactly what one should do when and how every step of the game, so unlike replays, they still require creativity and imagination on the part of the player. With replays you strip every away everything expect the act of emulating what you just saw. Conversation and exchanging ideas is great, but replays are the final step before someone takes the controller out of your hand and plays the game for you. No one can tell me the player who solves games without replays isn't more honorable than the one who uses them.

@Nemo: I don't like watching replays very much myself (most of the time I like to figure stuff out "impromptu," for lack of a better word), but that said I don't see any reason why people should or shouldn't be required to practice/prepare how they see fit...someone might just as easily suggest that to better level the playing field everyone MUST watch superplays. We've got all sorts of players participating, some good at certain games, others more proficient at diffferent ones; some longtime shmuppers, some new ones; some playing/studying/focusing to raise their ranking however they have to, others just participating for fun. I personally see the competition as being against myself more than against anyone else or any other team, to see what I can accomplish using whatever methods (or lack thereof) that I've chosen, perhaps widening my horizons a bit, perhaps not. I say just play as best you can however you feel like, and let others do the same.

I'm not telling people how they should play games outside of a tournament, that's their business, and I'm certainly not trying to demean or offend anyone. This, however, is a competition, so for fun or not there needs to be, for the lack of a better word, legitimacy. It would be like having an RPG competition where the goal is to complete the game as fast as possible or get 100% completition, and you have people using strategy guides that detail every aspect of the game. It makes me ask what the real point of the tournament is, is it about skill or about seeing who is the best at "simon says".

[zakk]

I can't believe we're even starting to have this whole 'omg replays' argument here. Seriously people. It's not even vaguely enforceable AND what about all the people who have played the game previous to this competition AND used replays?

There are all types of ways people can get an 'advantage'. They can save start parts they suck at and practice it over and over. They can record their own runs and analyze them later. Tons of other things. Not everyone will do them; it's inherently not an equal playing field and it never will be no matter what type of random rules are made.

Also, "honorable"? Fucking lol.

[Rob]

Nemo, "tldr" as they say. Save the energy for downloading MAME and playing Blazing Star.

[Nemo]

I can't believe we're even starting to have this whole 'omg replays' argument here. Seriously people. It's not even vaguely enforceable AND what about all the people who have played the game previous to this competition AND used replays?

Sure it's not enforceable, but neither is not cheating. As far as about what people have done prior, there's nothing one can do, it's the same thing as experience, but at least it's possible to curtail what happens during the competition.

There are all types of ways people can get an 'advantage'. They can save start parts they suck at and practice it over and over. They can record their own runs and analyze them later. Tons of other things. Not everyone will do them; it's inherently not an equal playing field and it never will be no matter what type of random rules are made.

Also, "honorable"? Fucking lol

I do agree about "save states" that's why MAME is bad for any real torurnament. Like Bloodflowers stated earlier, the one true way to have a competition is for everyone to play on PCBs under the eye of judges. But the fact remains we should do everything in our power to make this as legit as possible or why even bother? Sure people can do things like record their plays, etc, but this is inherent in the player, it's not adding some artificial, external device that creates such an uneven playing field, much like why steroids is banned from sports competitons. As far as honor, this whole competition is still based on it, because people can easily cheat regardless.

[Rob]

much like why steroids is banned from sports competitons.

Wait, are steroids banned from this competition?

[Icarus]

How can you compare a performance-enhancing drug that alters physical and mental state (and is outlawed in athletics and sports as it is proven to provide an unfair advantage) with a video (which has no guarantee that the person viewing is capable of actually replicating the feats within)? ¯\(°_o)/¯

Fucking LOL indeed. People really do make me ROFL around here.

Are ginseng, chocolate and other foodstuff that are proven to stimulate the brain also outlawed from this competition? As I was about to chow down on four bars of milk choc in order to get that nice sugar rush needed to wake myself up. -_-;;

[Ghegs]

I was expecting this argument, about the strategy sections, but that's different.

It's not different one bit. In fact, I'd say reading and talking about game strategy gives you much more of an advantage than watching a replay. Here's why:

Replays never explain what's going on and WHY.

Take any superplay of a game with a complex (ie. more complex than "kill X enemy for Y amount of points") scoring system. You're going to see the player do a whole lotta things, but unless you know exactly WHY he is doing what he is doing, the superplay is useless as means of getting information. Like delaying a chain in DDP or waiting until certain enemies come on screen before bombing or whatnot.

And this "emulation" argument. No. There are so many variables going on that unless you can move your ship pixel-perfectly the same way as the original player (and kill the same enemies at the same exact time, and so forth) the run will not be the same. I could watch people run the marathon on TV (maybe to see the way they pace themselves and running styles), that does not mean I can instantly run a marathon myself. I still have to develop myself up to the point of accomplishing it.

But the fact remains we should do everything in our power to make this as legit as possible or why even bother?

You mean it isn't? The way I see it, right now everybody can do everything they'd do for normal high-score chasing (use save states to practice, watch replays, etc) and that's it. As long as the game is played on one credit and on the same difficulty level, the competition itself IS fair and legit. The fact that other people may have less time to play or have already spent a good amount of time on the game before the tournament is irrelevant to the fairness of the competition.

[Rob]

People really do make me ROFL around here.

Yeah, you score snipers.

One minute left in deadline.... 3... 2... *submit post*

[Zigfried the Trizealot]

I'm not as pro-active about it, but I agree with Nemo. His explanation of the difference between replays and strategy guides is spot-on. That's why I'm not watching replays. Also, I agree about save states -- the use of save states actually put MAME users at an advantage over people playing the genuine product. That's why, when I want to practice a section (like level 4), I play through the first three levels to get there.

However, it never occurred to me to actually bring any of that up, because I already know that many people here disagree with my sense of SHOOTING HONOR. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd ban MAME on principle. (Ironically enough, I'm using MAME to play Blazing Star. That's because I place a higher priority on helping my team than on upholding personal principles, and I'm willing to swallow a bit of my pride to do so.)

So, Nemo, you're not alone. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be changing the shooting world today.

//Zig

[Rob]

I'm not as pro-active about it, but I agree with Nemo. His explanation of the difference between replays and strategy guides is spot-on. That's why I'm not watching replays.

Well you both probably know I agree(d), but I care less as time goes on. If it's a game I really don't care about draining every minute of enjoyment out of, who cares? Secondly, it's true about being able to replicate a replay. Does anyone actually attempt to do that? Very few, I imagine. People just pick up a few tips or general ideas.

See the the Gunbird 2 replay at super-play.uk. That is PURE dexterity and precision. I got no benefit from that at all.

[BulletMagnet]

The strategy sections are simply "instruction manuals" on how the game works and how one is expected to approach it.

I have to disagree with you here...most ST's have very specific scoring tips and whatnot, some of them based on what the writer has seen in superplays. Hence "Strategy Thread," as opposed to "general Gameplay Functions Thread." Check the Garegga ST, for instance...stage by stage and boss by boss, lots of very "non-basic" information, to say the least. "Quality/type of information" really isn't the issue here. or should STs with such content be disallowed?

No one can tell me the player who solves games without replays isn't more honorable than the one who uses them.

I really don't think "honor" has anything to do with it...I'd say it's simply a matter of how individual players get "fulfillment" (again, for lack of a better word) from their accomplishments. As I said before, I personally prefer to figure stuff out without replays, as I feel better when I've done so. Others, on the flipside, might be fine and dandy with trying to match the accomplishments (if not the exact movements, etc.) of the super-players, which undoubtedly is not an easy thing to do. I prefer one over the other, as I said, but that doesn't give me a reason to say that it's my way or the highway.

for fun or not

I think this needs to be clarified...I think you're taking this thing a bit too seriously. We're not competing for world records or anything (is there even a prize or anything? If there is, I have no clue what it is), we're just holding a friendly competition. This isn't the be-all-end-all declaration of superior players (or practice techniques) on the forum, no one's going to deride others for having gotten a higher score than them. Relax, enjoy the festivities.

It would be like having an RPG competition where the goal is to complete the game as fast as possible or get 100% completition, and you have people using strategy guides that detail every aspect of the game.

As has been said many times before, succeeding at an RPG and succeeding at a shmup are two entirely different things, done via entirely different means. Again, just chill and enjoy yourself, and let others do the same however they see fit.

[Rob]

Someone please point out an RPG competition.

[Super Laydock]

I'm not as pro-active about it, but I agree with Nemo. His explanation of the difference between replays and strategy guides is spot-on. That's why I'm not watching replays.

Well you both probably know I agree(d), but I care less as time goes on. If it's a game I really don't care about draining every minute of enjoyment out of, who cares?

Indeed!
I normally won't watch a replay (superplay or not) of a game I want to play and want to conquer. I love finding out on my own what's around the next corner and stuff (hate to see an endboss before I have reached him).
For instance I bought the Gradius Perfect DVD, when I was hyped for the release of the game. I have however never watched it and sold it unwatched later.
I'll read about techniques and strategy but replays are spoiling too much for me and take the fun away.

However I can't care too much about watching a Blazing star superplay and even use the cheaty autofire (would NEVER do that otherwise) because it's a game I'll never own or REALLY want to get into.
I only play it for this competition and want to get a max score out of it before probably never playing it again.

[Nemo]

How can you compare a performance-enhancing drug that alters physical and mental state (and is outlawed in athletics and sports as it is proven to provide an unfair advantage) with a video (which has no guarantee that the person viewing is capable of actually replicating the feats within)? ¯\(°_o)/¯

Steroids doesn't guarantee anything either. If I took steroids could I hit a baseball 600 feet? Of course not. Replays, like steroids, are giving someone who is competent at a discipline the power to exceed their natural abilities.

It's not different one bit. In fact, I'd say reading and talking about game strategy gives you much more of an advantage than watching a replay. Here's why:

Replays never explain what's going on and WHY.

Take any superplay of a game with a complex (ie. more complex than "kill X enemy for Y amount of points") scoring system. You're going to see the player do a whole lotta things, but unless you know exactly WHY he is doing what he is doing, the superplay is useless as means of getting information. Like delaying a chain in DDP or waiting until certain enemies come on screen before bombing or whatnot.

And this "emulation" argument. No. There are so many variables going on that unless you can move your ship pixel-perfectly the same way as the original player (and kill the same enemies at the same exact time, and so forth) the run will not be the same. I could watch people run the marathon on TV (maybe to see the way they pace themselves and running styles), that does not mean I can instantly run a marathon myself. I still have to develop myself up to the point of accomplishing it.

When people use replays they already pretty much understand how the game works, and by watching it enough they can figure out what's going. What replays do is strip away the sense of "discovery" and "innovation" (I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true) and tells the player if you want the best score you play this way, or you're wasting your time. And even if people aren't able to replicate everything verbatim, they are striving to reach that and in the meantime are continually incorporating more and more of what they see into how they play.

[Twiddle]

Someone please point out an RPG competition.

http://tasvideos.org/

[Nemo]

Well you both probably know I agree(d), but I care less as time goes on. If it's a game I really don't care about draining every minute of enjoyment out of, who cares? Secondly, it's true about being able to replicate a replay. Does anyone actually attempt to do that? Very few, I imagine. People just pick up a few tips or general ideas.

You replicate as much as you're capable of. Of course no one will watch a replay once and copy everything they just saw, but you have been given the "blueprint" so to speak of exactly how to master the game, and depending on how much time you put in, you'll be able to copy it more and more. And as far as saying who cares, I care for the sake of the competition and saying you've accomplished something.

Someone please point out an RPG competition.

Team spirit -10.

[Edge]

Please don't derail this thread with the subject if replays are cheating.
We had a different thread for this very discussion.

I got your point Nemo and I see why you think so, but I don't intend to ban replays from this competition. (well it wouldn't be really possible as people could still watch replays even if that's not allowed. But that isn't my point.)

EDIT:
And I personally didn't watch the replay and don't like watching super plays. But that's up to everyone's own preference.

[Rob]

and tells the player if you want the best score you play this way, or you're wasting your time.

I wasted my time by watching the Blazing Star replay. You have to work out fine details yourself in games like this.

Team spirit -10.

NO SCORE TEAM BETRAYAL +100

[Nemo]

Please don't derail this thread with the subject if replays are cheating.
We had a different thread for this very discussion.

I got your point Nemo and I see why you think so, but I don't intend to ban replays from this competition. (well it wouldn't be really possible as people could still watch replays even if that's not allowed. But that isn't my point.)

That's fine, I'm willing to go along with what the majority decides, but saying people could still watch replays if they were banned should have nothing to do with it. Like always, I'm just providing food for thought, people can take it how they want.

[Nemo]

I wasted my time by watching the Blazing Star replay. You have to work out fine details yourself in games like this.

Then why are so many people watching replays, it must be providing some benefit, it surely isn't for the plot. If it doesn't help, as some people are claiming, then why do it?

[Icarus]

When people use replays they already pretty much understand how the game works, and by watching it enough they can figure out what's going. What replays do is strip away the sense of "discovery" and "innovation" (I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true) and tells the player if you want the best score you play this way, or you're wasting your time. And even if people aren't able to replicate everything verbatim, they are striving to reach that and in the meantime are continually incorporating more and more of what they see into how they play.

And what about the guys standing behind the player in the arcade, watching him run through his strategies? Isn't that the same as watching a replay? Are you about to outlaw that kind of practice from an arcade as well, just because you believe its cheating and that watching someone do a live play makes you lose that sense of "discovery" and "innovation"? Would you outlaw spectators from a live tournament?

And what about strategy discussion on a forum? We don't use spoiler tags here, so someone is bound to be spoiled when he reads "stage4 boss is milked in this manner: blah blah blah". Should we outlaw strategy discussion here, as well as between teammates?

And is the process of sharing replays with your teammates cheating as well?

Seriously, why are you bringing this up now and not three weeks ago? You should know that some players were bound to use replays in this competition to get ahead, and yet you still signed up. One wonders what you hope to achieve by bringing up the time-old argument again at this stage of the game.

ROFLskates.

Anyway, end of my contribution. Back to destroying forum records.

[Nemo]

And what about the guys standing behind the player in the arcade, watching him run through his strategies? Isn't that the same as watching a replay? Are you about to outlaw that kind of practice from an arcade as well, just because you believe its cheating and that watching someone do a live play makes you lose that sense of "discovery" and "innovation"? Would you outlaw spectators from a live tournament?

And what about strategy discussion on a forum? We don't use spoiler tags here, so someone is bound to be spoiled when he reads "stage4 boss is milked in this manner: blah blah blah". Should we outlaw strategy discussion here, as well as between teammates?

And is the process of sharing replays with your teammates cheating as well?

Seriously, what are you bringing this up now and not three weeks ago? You should know that some players were bound to use replays in this competition to get ahead, and yet you still signed up. One wonders what you hope to achieve by bringing up the time-old argument again at this stage of the game.

ROFLskates.

Anyway, end of my contribution. Back to destroying forum records.

There's a difference between witnessing something one time in-person and re-watching the same video 20 times. And explaining one situation in words is different from visually seeing an entire game in action. And quite honestly I didn't think of it 3 weeks ago, there is only so many things one can consider prior, if nothing else this tournament should be a good trial run for how to improve future tournaments.

[Ghegs]

And even if people aren't able to replicate everything verbatim, they are striving to reach that and in the meantime are continually incorporating more and more of what they see into how they play.

The same thing happens when you watch other people play in the arcade and from reading ST's. If you read that bombing over a certain house in Raiden DX (might even have a picture included as our STs often have) gives you a score bonus, then you'll be doing it and incorporating it into your runs. No difference. For the record, I've had much more benefits from reading forum posts and talking on IRC about Blazing Star than watching the Aryustailm replay I have, as I use Peplos with requires a totally different approach.

I never use replays (or look for tips, for that matter) for a game/part of a game before playing and tackling it myself. Only until I get horribly stuck and/or don't understand something I try to find information on it, and that information can come from any source, whether it be from STs or replays. And even after looking for help, I try to contain the information I get to the bits I'm having trouble with. I don't read the whole ST or watch the whole replay. If I can't figure out the conditions for making item X appear, I don't look for help on how to chain Stage 5 at the same time.

[Icarus]

There's a difference between witnessing something one time in-person and re-watching the same video 20 times. And explaining one situation in words is different from visually seeing an entire game in action. And quite honestly I didn't think of it 3 weeks ago, there is only so many things one can consider prior, if nothing else this tournament should be a good trial run for how to improve future tournaments.

- And if you happen to watch the guy doing successive credits?
- You can reread a strategy, just like you can rewind a video. Apply strategy to experience and you have understanding.

You can watch a video, but thats no guarantee you'll improve. You still need skill to do some of the deft trickery in a superplay, just as you need full understanding of why things are done the way they are done. If anything, there are probably a handful of people on this planet capable of replicating a replay fully, so if anything, I don't think its a valid point.

And if there is such a person, point me in his/her direction. I'd like to meet the super-human photographic memory person.

If you don't like it, don't participate. ^_-

[Acid King]

You can watch a video, but thats no guarantee you'll improve.

No, it's not, however, videos are more or less a short cut to knowledge. It's not the same as an ST, unless the ST happens to be very specific (like your Bakraid Axebeak explanation). I mean, there's a huge difference between reading the Blazing Star strategies which are extremeey general (milk the bosses for gems, use the Yumekobos to maximize rank) vs. seeing a world record holder demonstrating the best spots to use the yume's to maximize rank and the best ways the milk a boss. I don't think anyone really tries to replicate videos move for move, that's pointless and impossible. They just watch for tips and specific sections they need help with.

It's a non issue regardless, but no way are videos comparable to general STs.