Italy vs Shmups.com

[The Coop]

I guess this is the end result of trying to bring together groups of people who obviously take the concept of "friendly competition" to varying degrees. Some do them for fun and are more lax with their requirements, some are strict and want proof of everything, and others are somewhere in the middle. The end result of bringing all these types of concepts together and trying to push one above the others is pretty much what happened here... a giant Mongolian cluster fuck that breaks down into name calling and finger pointing on all sides. But I guess that's part of the Internet's nature, isn't it? Serious business and all.

It's disappointing to see it all break down as it did, but perhaps it's for the best. There was already some distrust in this competition from the get go, and with comments about scores being fake until proven otherwise, this thing didn't have the kind of start needed for an activity that's supposed to be "for fun". It's hard to get into something, when the overall atmosphere is one where you're considered a cheater until you've shown differently... which is the vibe that this thread has given how things are worded and set up.

Who knows... maybe all this will settle down and the contest will happen despite all that went on. But I think some cool down time is needed for all involved. Perhaps later it can be tried again... sans the hostilities of course

[howmuchkeefe]

I also would have liked to see the contest take place.

If it makes any difference, I agree with idea of allowing the challenger to set the parameters. Let those who accept the terms compete in the contest. It makes no more sense to quibble over the challenger's parameters than it does to argue with the reasons those who decline the challenge have for not participating in the contest.

[sikraiken]

im a lot disappointed

instead understanding the situation and trying to change the point of view regarding the important validation of GREAT score you have preferred to create the topic Shmups vs shmups

you are happy if after hours hours of sacrifice a perfect one troll enters with one score fake?

sik it has not answered to my demands....

I'm not sure if you just do not know a better word than demands (your English is fine, I'd never complain about someone's English who didn't learn it as their first language), but please demand nothing of me. I do not care if you do not believe my score, I have already stated this. I have not played DDP in over a year, and at this point in time I am devoted to other things and cannot and will not make the time to make a replay just to prove myself to you, because I could care less. I am, however, here just because you slander me in such a fashion that it is degrading. I could understand if you just said "I do not believe his score without proof" ONCE, I have no problem with that, you can think whatever you want. If anything, for me, this just means that I have made such an unbelievable score to you that it must be atleast decent. But when you add name calling, and continued badgering about it, I am quite offended by that. Maybe one day you will see an even greater score from me in the future when I return to the game (which I will, as I will eventually return to other games as well when I find the time, but I'm not sure when) with the proof you so dearly yearn for, but until then, you can keep believing that I am a fake. Just don't be a jerk about it. Thanks.

[Jck]

Someone has already won his contest (and before september )

Yes... And maybe he's laughing in his cave (no, not the software house )

[sikraiken]

Hey, whoever was n00b796 ([email protected]) on #shmups, you left without me telling you about that one part in 1-5: www.sikraiken.com/ddp15.txt if you still want to read it. I only assume that you'll read this in here by some of the things you were saying in the channel. : P

[Fighter17]

My god who gives a fuck about the different versions of MAME. They all have the same goal of playing emulated PCBs. Like what BloodFlowers said, all of MAME programs can be hacked no matter what.

Geez guys, I'm 16 and I act more like a adult than most of you guys. Sad but ture.

[Neverland]

sik in the dangun feveron contest you have make a great score and produce a variuos inp and you take my esteem how player

For me is not important if one realy highscore is make from you , from person A , Person B , Santa Claus... ecc ecc for me is important have a test of this score. (when score is a beast score like your a DDP)

it is my right not to believe ... yes?

ok

if you make a 2 years playing a ddp and realize a VERY HIGH SCORE and one enter with a pic altered similar posted like example by Br1
what you would say?

all ok?
it is a great player?

or you will want a test of this score?

my discussion in general was centralized on this

now i hope this discussions is accept in the mind of many great players present in this board

in any case is now time to make end of this discussion
but i thinking if we have made of the strange demands therefore?

[sikraiken]

sik in the dangun feveron contest you have make a great score and produce a variuos inp and you take my esteem how player

For me is not important if one realy highscore is make from you , from person A , Person B , Santa Claus... ecc ecc for me is important have a test of this score. (when score is a beast score like your a DDP)

it is my right not to believe ... yes?

ok

if you make a 2 years playing a ddp and realize a VERY HIGH SCORE and one enter with a pic altered similar posted like example by Br1
what you would say?

all ok?
it is a great player?

or you will want a test of this score?

my discussion in general was centralized on this

now i hope this discussions is accept in the mind of many great players present in this board

in any case is now time to make end of this discussion
but i thinking if we have made of the strange demands therefore?

Thanks for the nice words about my DF play.

If it was not important to you about who did this, why did you point me out specifically? You just flat out called me a liar and made a joke of my score without ever talking to me.

Yes, it is your right to not believe. It is however not your right to slander me and assume I am a liar when you have never even talked to me. If someone makes a questionable score (in my opinion), well, first of all, I wouldn't flat out call them a liar and a cheater until they prove themselves like you did to me. I would probably be interested in talking to them about the game because if they are better than me then obviously I would want to discuss what they have done to achieve their score so maybe I can improve mine as well. If they do not want to talk about their score, how they got it, or show some sort of proof that they know the game, then oh well. I would just dismiss their score and be done with it.

[Turrican]

sik it has not answered to my demands....

I'm not sure if you just do not know a better word than demands (your English is fine, I'd never complain about someone's English who didn't learn it as their first language)

that's exactly the case - you see, in Italian, "question" is "domanda" -it's a classic "false friend". Just like we have "parenti" which actually doesn't mean "parents", but "relatives".

He should've wrote: "sik it has not answered to my questions...."

Nev, your english requires some working on it.

[destructor]

You are an idiot. You have no clue what VMWare is, do you? It's a virtual machine program. In effect* it emulates a computer. A good analogy is if you were playing PocketNES (an emulator for GBA that runs NES games) on VisualBoy Advance (a GBA emulator). You can save and load the states for the GBA, but PocketNES thinks it has been running continuously! The same is true for VMWare with Wolfmame. Wolfmame doesn't 'know' if you've been saving or loading states in VMWare. It can't tell. And so, you can use VMWare to fudge INPs.

WolfMAME for replay file read your moves not video as in avi files, if you use save state with VMWare replay is impossible to playback correctly. If you are VMWare master or know who is master, please use it and made extra replays for WolfMAME. I will wait for you after 100mln years in hibernation.
Why nobody did it? And you think that somebode will do it for shmups tournament?
And remember that moves for inp file are coded (encrypted).
One from some topics:
http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?t=12010

2) That's my argument too. But there are still naysayers who think replay viewing and strategy guide writing is cheating. Who cares?

What when we play on arcade machines in bar or other places and all can watch how we play?

[Neverland]

sik it has not answered to my demands....

I'm not sure if you just do not know a better word than demands (your English is fine, I'd never complain about someone's English who didn't learn it as their first language)

that's exactly the case - you see, in Italian, "question" is "domanda" -it's a classic "false friend". Just like we have "parenti" which actually doesn't mean "parents", but "relatives".

He should've wrote: "sik it has not answered to my questions...."

Nev, your english requires some working on it.

yes you have reason


but for reply to sik:

i nomitaded your name why your score to ddp is to much high and is strange dont make never a video of one similar score...

if i make 540. mil in DDP minium make an inp one with one of my best score around 540 mil and product a video..

for this reason i have ask you to create a inp around 300-400 mil in ddp
if you made it ok...I have doubted uselessly and I would have asked you excuse

only this

[Vincere]

Didn't read all this.

Where the fuck is the "shmups vs shmups" contest gone? Can't find it anywhere!

[Edge]

LOL

Well, Dave_K suggested I should change it's name since the threadtitle was sounding a bit sarcastic. It is still here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=10167

But is called "The NEW SHMEET", like we had a weekly compo before called the shmeets. (weekly online shmup meet)

[sven666]

what the hell does "SHMEET" mean anyways?

why not keep it simple and call it "le grande shmups tournament" or something like that.. ?

[Venom]

what the hell does "SHMEET" mean anyways?

why not keep it simple and call it "le grande shmups tournament" or something like that.. ?

It's a combination of SKEET and SHMUP, you whip out your pea shooter and...

No, it's SHMUP and MEET, became a word for get togethers to play shoot-em-ups.

[MovingTarget]

I passed that thread thinkin it was yet another meet somewhere else in the world that I would(surprise surprise!) be unable to appear at.

[Acid King]

wow.. just read thru this and it really DID turn into ITALY vs SHMUPS

THIS SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY!!

See Shmups-"The Forum"-.com take on It-"The Country"-aly! Watch as they go MAME to MAME in their brutal and post-filled quest for domination! Swoon as accusations run rampant! Reel back in horror as replays fly! MY GOD... CAN THIS BE CONTAINED?!

THIS SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY!!

Fuckin' class.

I didn't really pay attention to this thread, mostly because I'm not good enough to be considered for a team of sorts, but this thing got out of hand waaaay too quickly. There was really only two ways to go about it. Reject the idea or work on a compromise. Though it's probably too late to work out an agreement, what with all the shitslinging, hopefully some (if not all) of the Italian team will stay on and join the new comp Edge is setting up and represent Italy, inp and replays be damned.

On a side note, fuck the Italians... just kidding.







Fuck the Germans.... brat eating bastards...

[DeSangre]

yes you have reason

If anything Nev has secured its place as www.engrish.com new editor. (and learned another English word: "slander")

By the way Nev, the reasons why you should believe Sik's score(s) are so many I don't even know where to start from.

I'll go with the "Reputation" route.
Sik's name has been around since several years, not only on shmups.com, but even on TNL, in DDR/Pump it up forums, and so on. He has shown to be an *excellent* all around player. Music games, shooters, action games, he's really great, and a very nice person to talk to, too.

Do you really think that someone who's able to play as shown in the DF inp, would ever CHEAT by MODIFYING a png? I don't think so, you can think differently, but you should not accuse ANYONE of ANYTHING without complete proof, here, and in real life too

Nev, you have to understand that most people here don't follow the "standard" italian way which is providing inps. I'm not saying that that recording inps it's BAD. It is, of course, a viable way to check the validity of someone's score, but it can be avoided when you're in a community which relies on trust, and especially if you're a "known member".

This said, there's really no point in questioning inps in this very tournament. The Italians "made the rules", take it or leave it. For a change, it would've been nice to see an "inp tournament" here, and for a bigger change, it would've been nicer if ppl didn't go OT with their personal rantings on other members of the forum.

[LUNardei]

Yes to everyone but... This thread is going nowhere.

[system11]

WolfMAME for replay file read your moves not video as in avi files, if you use save state with VMWare replay is impossible to playback correctly. If you are VMWare master or know who is master, please use it and made extra replays for WolfMAME. I will wait for you after 100mln years in hibernation.

It took about 15 minutes.

http://www.system11.org/temp/forumposts/xev1.inp
http://www.system11.org/temp/forumposts/xev2.inp

Notes:
1) I suck on keyboard.
2) There is a pause in ship movement where the 2 INPs start to differ, this is me letting go of the controls - obviously the best time to do the save state would be between levels, but I wanted to show you can do it mid game.
3) The input is not delayed - note deliberate bombing of different ground targets to prove it wasn't input lagged.
4) You can verify this is a matching replay up to a point by comparing the files in a hex editor, or passing them through 'strings' on a unix machine which will extract things that look like keycodes and comparing that.

Now just stop it with the whole 'proof' thing ok? I wonder how many other people know this is possible and incredibly easy. No, I'm not going to tell anyone exactly how - it's obvious to anyone half technical. I wonder if any MARP replays used it? You can never know.

[sven666]

It took about 15 minutes.
.

you're wasting your time, he's in hibernation for another 99 million years and 360 days or so..

ed: whats up with the italians anyways, none have signed up for the tournament

[DEL]

Good point! One minute there are 10 Italian Players ready to take on the World, then just 2.

Italy has a lot of Good Players! Its time to Compete

[Thunder Force]

I wonder how many other people know this is possible and incredibly easy. No, I'm not going to tell anyone exactly how - it's obvious to anyone half technical.

Indeed. It's best that everyone realizes this sort of thing is possible.

[rmruczek]

Hello fellow gamers:

I've been playing in a few WolfMAME-based competitions for the past approx 3 years now and to my knowledge no one had actively tried to submit bogus scores.

What I think helped was the peer review process where competitors were able to download and view the complete INP and WLF file and make their own determinations during the course of the competition. Quite a few tech-savvy players would participate as well as some "top guns" on the various titles, and between the two, thankfully, all works out well.

I must admit that I like one gamer's suggestion on this forum...I think it was "Plasmo"...who proposed a random 3-character initial up front. That will definitely take away the possibility of, for example, a gamer like myself named "ROB" spotting on perhaps the MARP forum a top score already posted by a fellow gamer using the initials "ROB" on the same title and for a very high score, and then downloading that score and submitting as if it were their own...talk about a low and unethical thing to do !!

There are indeed some tech-savvy gamers who might be able to pull off an incredibly difficult hacked or patched performance which is virtually indistinguishable from a real INP, but in the previous competitions within which I participated, such players tend to mostly discuss what can be done in this realm rather than to actually submit scores using these techniques. That's a good thing, of course...leads to less arguments and keeps the competition focused.

As for PCBs, not to long ago I was educated as to individuals skilled enough to manipulate the ROMset on some classic arcade titles such as "Donkey Kong" and make changes from the difficult-to-spot such as causing the Mario-character to run very slightly faster by +3%, to the easy-to-spot such as increasing the jumping capacity, slowing down the elevators, etc. While this possibility always exists that a determined individual will try to sneak in such a submission, the vast majority of players thankfully do not.

I would suggest that as it is always going to be possible to engage in such deceptibe tactics for submissions, just be extra vigilant. Too many locks and keys to keep the competition tight and free from all possibility of such cheating and it sort of ends up taking away some of the fun of a participating in a competition, I think.

Robert

[landshark]

I think it came down to everyone just wanting their own thing and noone giving way to anyone else. Some like replays, some don't, some like mame, some don't, some have PCBs, some don't.

The current competition seems to be going plenty well and it's purely an honors system.