Mag-Stiks, Suzos, JLFs, oh my!

[Damocles]

Something that I hadn't thought about, but seems painfully obvious now. It has been mentioned that with a bat-top the spring will feel too loose. My question: Since I already have a Super, a Comp, and an additional heavy Comp spring, what would the results be like if I stuck those in a Sanwa. Do the problems arise because of the short throw, or is it the spring itself?

[elvis]

However, nowadays it seems like there's just too much throw to suit me.

The shortest throw sticks I've ever used are the Suzo 500's. They're rebadged as "Ultimarc Eurostick" and "GroovyGameGear OMNI Stick Basic" units by each company respectively:

http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html (scroll down to "Euro-Stik")
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/inde ... cts_id=197

The throw on these is literally 2-3mm. It's damned tiny. I use these on my Cocktail cab, and they're quite shmup-friendly. Definitely good for twitch play, as you literally only have to twitch to activate them.

Just a suggestion from the sea of "BUY SANWA OR HAPP" comments that always seem to get made in stick threads. Plus, they're cheap too.

[system11]

The shortest throw sticks I've ever used are the Suzo 500's. They're rebadged as "Ultimarc Eurostick" and "GroovyGameGear OMNI Stick Basic" units by each company respectively:

This is the same stick as the STC Universal I've been mentioning. Suzo own STC now - but I believe the first company to rebadge them was Wico.

The older design didn't have the gate that the new ones do - I quite liked the gateless feel - their actuator design means that for 8-way you just don't need it. I'm going to post a review of the stick soon, compared to an older model - looks like the gate can be removed completely.

Just a suggestion from the sea of "BUY SANWA OR HAPP" comments that always seem to get made in stick threads. Plus, they're cheap too.

Yeah - I agree. People are so tied up in loving Japanese joysticks that they ignore the fact that an arguably better stick exists locally, although the raised bezel can be an issue for some cabs. Of course, nobody buys Happ - with good reason, their joysticks now seem more like sad parodies of the Japanese types, but with bat handles.

[Damocles]

I hate to be a tool and bump my own thread, but is it even possible to switch springs in a Sanwa or Seimitsu stick?

[oxtsu]

For Damocles, Yes, the springs in a Seimitsu/Sanwa stick can removed and swapped like any other. I don't know if a Happ spring will fit into a Sanwa, but yes, a heavier spring would alleviate the "problems" with a bat-top+JLF. Personally, I think the comments before were overblown, and I don't even like bat-tops. It feels a tad lighter than normal (est. 10%) depending on where you grip (hopefully not from the tip only) and there is more wobble in the slip return to center (means if you let go of stick at the end of the throw). Note: Sanwa JLF w/normal balltop is light feeling already (not loose, there's a difference), all Seimitsu models minus LS-33: +30% spring rate...subjective calculation. You should try it for yourself.

[Damocles]

Man, having an income has really screwed with me. First it tempted me with new sticks, now it's tempting me with flat-out custom building a new CP. I've been checking out the I-Pac tech info, and am seriously considering building a dedicated single-player USB CP. Too bad I suck at making pretty cases. Anyone know a good place to get attractive and comfortable cases?

Anyway....the real point of this post. As mentioned above, an income has allowed me to do my own personal "joystick roundup"...so to speak. Despite having recently aquired a Mag-Stik Plus, I'm in the market for a Sanwa. Unfortunately, I believe Oxtsu's most recent order has already passed by me, and I havn't found any site that accepts anything other than PayPal, which I don't use.

Oh, and I'd love to try out a Suzo, but the mounting method worries me.

[oxtsu]

Damocles, I can probably get you in on SGO#8. Just let me know.

[rib]

i just received my first stick, i have waited long and now i have a HRAP SA.
after some hours of play (its the first time that i played a game with a stick exept the few times may years ago in some arcades) im a bit upset about the large area where you have to move the stick to get a reaction.
is it the "throw" you where talking about?

what would be the best im my case, to stick to it and learn playing with it, or to use a different stick? if so which stick and how can i do the change.

[KBZ]

BUY SANWA BUY HAPP

MEAT AND/OR POTATOES

[elvis]

after some hours of play (its the first time that i played a game with a stick exept the few times may years ago in some arcades) im a bit upset about the large area where you have to move the stick to get a reaction.
is it the "throw" you where talking about?

Yes. The "throw" is the distance needed to move the stick until the "actuator" (the usually plastic or rubber bit under the stick) "actuates" (ie: hits the microswitch and makes it turn on).

Japanese style sticks (Sanwa JLFs, Seimitsus, and all of the copycat brands) are traditionally "long throw" sticks.

You can change this by changing the actuator, or modding the switches to add a metal leaf infront of them.

Check out this guide on SRK:
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116171

what would be the best im my case, to stick to it and learn playing with it, or to use a different stick? if so which stick and how can i do the change.

That's up to you. Personal preference. People can tell you what stick to use as much as they can tell you what your favourite colour should be.

I love my Sanwa sticks. But I know folks who hate them for all sorts of reasons. And of note, I used to hate them for ages until I got used to them, and now can't play without them. I'm not saying anyone else will be the same either.

How to mod sticks - well that's easy. Open your case up and look at how the stick is fastened. Most joysticks have several mounting holes in them, so it's a matter of simply plugging the new stick in, fastenining it with screws, and connecting the wires. Definitely not rocket science.

[kowal]

Yes. The "throw" is the distance needed to move the stick until the "actuator" (the usually plastic or rubber bit under the stick) "actuates" (ie: hits the microswitch and makes it turn on)

It this is not throw. This is Engagement. Throw this max travel on what bends joystick. Engagement then road to registering movement.
schedules with parameters
http://www.kowal.itcom.pl/ArcadeParts_p ... arison.htm

[destructor]

Yes, as kowal say:
throw - maximum travel
engagement - distance needed to move the stick until the "actuator" (the usually plastic or rubber bit under the stick) "actuates" (ie: hits the microswitch and makes it turn on)

[elvis]

Yes, as kowal say:
throw - maximum travel
engagement - distance needed to move the stick until the "actuator" (the usually plastic or rubber bit under the stick) "actuates" (ie: hits the microswitch and makes it turn on)

What's the difference? You're saying that one is as far as the stick will go, and the other is as far as the stick needs to go to actuate (which is as far as the stick will go)?

Sounds redundant to me.

[kowal]

this two different things
example from 'cars':
engagement - this acceleration (0-100km/h: 6s)
throw - this max speed (250km/h)
X - aracde has medium engagement but long throw (acceleration 0-100km/h:7sek; max speed 180km/h)
Sanwa has average throw but long engagement (acceleration 0-100km/h: 10sek; max speed 250km/h)
Competion has long throw and long engagement (acceleration 0-100km/h:12sek; max speed 180km/h)
Mag - stick has fast engagement and short throw (acceleration 0-100km/h:4sek; max speed 300km/h)
you understand now?

[Damocles]

Yes, as kowal say:
throw - maximum travel
engagement - distance needed to move the stick until the "actuator" (the usually plastic or rubber bit under the stick) "actuates" (ie: hits the microswitch and makes it turn on)

What's the difference? You're saying that one is as far as the stick will go, and the other is as far as the stick needs to go to actuate (which is as far as the stick will go)?

Sounds redundant to me.

I've found that in sticks where the throw greatly exceeds the engagement threshold there is a degree of precision that is not innate. Take your bog-standard Super. I never could see the positive side of tweaking the actuators to engage earlier. If you take your stick to the extremes, you have that much farther to come back before the MS you just activated disengages, then the process is repeated ad nauseum.

Compare that to the Mag-Stiks. The engagement threshold and throw are virtually the same. When you are heading in one direction and release the stick, you STOP, not travel a few more pixels then stop. Your ass stops then and there.

A middle ground would be the Comp, where there is considerably more throw than a Mag-Stik, but once it hits the engagement threshold, there's not much farther to go. Once again, after engaging it travels farther than a Mag-Stick, but considerably less than a heavily-tweaked Super.

[destructor]

Yes, as kowal say:
throw - maximum travel
engagement - distance needed to move the stick until the "actuator" (the usually plastic or rubber bit under the stick) "actuates" (ie: hits the microswitch and makes it turn on)

What's the difference? You're saying that one is as far as the stick will go, and the other is as far as the stick needs to go to actuate (which is as far as the stick will go)?

Sounds redundant to me.

When you move stick you hear 'click' first and next you can still move joystick in the same direction until stick is blocked.
Never is situation when is click and nothing more.
Way from start to 'click' = engagement
Way from start to 'block' = throw
Always throw > engagement.

Check it with your joystick.

[elvis]

this two different things
example from 'cars':
engagement - this acceleration (0-100km/h: 6s)
throw - this max speed (250km/h)
X - aracde has medium engagement but long throw (acceleration 0-100km/h:7sek; max speed 180km/h)
Sanwa has average throw but long engagement (acceleration 0-100km/h: 10sek; max speed 250km/h)
Competion has long throw and long engagement (acceleration 0-100km/h:12sek; max speed 180km/h)
Mag - stick has fast engagement and short throw (acceleration 0-100km/h:4sek; max speed 300km/h)
you understand now?

Speed and accelleration are measured in totally different units, and one can be derived from the other.

When you move stick you hear 'click' first and next you can still move joystick in the same direction until stick is blocked.
Never is situation when is click and nothing more.
Way from start to 'click' = engagement
Way from start to 'block' = throw
Always throw > engagement.

Check it with your joystick.

And here I'm being told that they are both a linear (distance) measurement. And as far as I can see, one that differs by a few millimeters at best.

While I appreciate the difference, it's one that IMHO is so negligable, I think you're all splitting hairs. Not trying to be rude here, but I really can't see why it matters so much.

[destructor]

but I really can't see why it matters so much.

Never mind why it matters, these are terms.

1. When you move stick:
a) do you move until stick is 'blocked'?
b) do you move stick until 'click' only?
Choose a or b.

2. What is faster:
a) when you move stick right until 'blocked' and next immediately change direction to 'left' until 'block' again?
b) when you move stick right until 'click' and next immediately change direction to 'left' until 'click' again only?
Choose a or b.

3. What is easier:
a) move stick until 'block'?
b) move stick until 'click'?
Choose a or b.

My answers:
1. a
2. b
3. a

If you still don't understand why it matters buy X-Arcade joystick and you will understand it in 5 seconds.

Believe me that 1 or 2 mm more is very difference. If joystick throw is for example 8mm then look how much is 2mm, it's 1/4 travel.

[elvis]

If you still don't understand why it matters buy X-Arcade joystick and you will understand it in 5 seconds.

I don't buy anything with Chinese made parts (which is what's in the X-Arcade gear).

[Damocles]

And here I'm being told that they are both a linear (distance) measurement. And as far as I can see, one that differs by a few millimeters at best.

While I appreciate the difference, it's one that IMHO is so negligable, I think you're all splitting hairs. Not trying to be rude here, but I really can't see why it matters so much.

Splitting hairs? Not at all. I suppose if your playing style primarily employs taking the stick to the extremities, then no, throw doesn't matter. If that's the case, then slamming the stick around at high speeds nullifies any need for finesse. The problem, and this is one that I've found personally, is that having to move the stick any more than necessary greatly hinders performance. As I mentioned earlier, the longer the total throw, the farther you have to move the stick to change direction (assuming you're playing a shooter). It's fine for a single sudden change, but with constant back-and-forth weaving it sucks utter ass. Contrast that with a stick that has short throw and quick engagement. You move the stick less, and can return to neutral/switch directions far more quickly (relatively) than with a long-throw stick.

Then again, this entire notion is rendered pointless if you have enough self-control to only take the stick far enough to engage the MS. In theory, yes, but under fire, no.

I personally went from a Super to a Comp to a Mag-Stik, and I will never go back to either of the first two. For shooters.

[Damocles]

It's hard to say smooth. If you want stick for shooters (airshooters especially) then T-Stik is wrong because his spring is too hard and you must use too much strenght to move stick = not precisely moves, more concentration on stick than on game (I finished Cyvern on T-Stik before P360 I install, it was not easy).

Actually, I meant something slightly different. When a normal spring-based stick is moved slightly, there is consistent resistance from the time you move it until the time the microswitch is activated. I've noticed that in the Mag-Stik most of the centering comes from the levers on the switches, and that if you move the stick without activating a microswitch the stick itself is rather wobbly.

[kowal]

then fault pivot. put under the belt of plastic-foil.

[destructor]

Thread about it:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sh ... =5&o=&vc=1

[Damocles]

Alright, so with the kindness of Oxtsu I was able to get an order in for a brand spankin' new JLF. I figured what the hell...since I'm ordering a stick I might as well get a bat-top handle as well. In retrospect I do have to say this has been quite an enlightening little experience. I have been operating on a number of assumptions, most of which were wrong.

Assumption 1: JLFs are short-throw sticks.

Nope. At least not by my definition. I was under the impression that JLFs had considerably shorter throw and travel than a Comp. Not in the least.

Assumption 2: JLFs are light. Very light.

Yep. 'nuff said.

Assumption 3: A bat-top handle would sit extremely high.

Nope. I based this assumption off of several replies at the beginning of this thread. However, this is in no way the case. In reality, they actually sit a bit lower. Whereas the ball-top threads down until the bottom meets the end of the threads, the bottom of the bat-top actually threads down past the end of the threads. This is accomplished by way the of thread converter. The bat-top doesn't use the threads on the shaft itself, instead using an adaptor. The adaptor stops at the end of the threads, of course, but the top nestles itself on past the threads. The top is higher than that of the ball-top, but the bottom is lower. Honestly, there's virtually no difference. I felt more at home on the bat-top, but did equally well on the ball-top. Once again, it's just preference. Also, the bat-top didn't do jack to make the stick loose or sloppy. Hell, didn't really even feel different other than changing the grip. I found myself only using my thumb and index finger to control the ball-top, while resting my other three fingers on the control panel for leverage and stability. Contrast that with my normal grip of resting my hand on the CP while holding the stick like a flight stick.

Assumption 4: A JLF and a Mag-Stik have approximately the same throw and travel.

Nope. Not even close. I'd say it takes perhaps 3x the distance to engage the JLF, whereas if you even think about moving the Mag-Stik it's already there. The JLF also continues travel after engaging the microswitch. ...exactly like a Happ.

My assumptions were stupid, yes. Would I still have bought a JLF if I knew better? Eventually, just to try one out.

All in all, there is really only one major difference between a JLF and a Comp. Spring weight. The JLF has virtually no resistance while the Comp has about 2x-3x as much. Not good, not bad, just different. This did result in the aforementioned grip change.

In conclusion, I'm keeping the JLF and the Comp in my X-Arcade, but will be putting the Mag-Stik in my new custom CP. Honestly, I'll probably never go back to the JLF for serious playing. That's how good the Mag-Stik is.

[kowal]

sanwa is worse from mag-stick, but better from competion. they not the may of the same throw and engagement.
competion: travel 12mm, engage 7mm
JLF: travel 7mm, engage 5mm
Mag-stick: travel 4mm, engage 3mm
difference between JLF vs competionem is the same how between mag-stick vs sanwa, you generalise facts.
from Japanese joysticks I can recommend 4 shumps only seimitsu LS40, LS56 but they are still worse from mag-stick or suzo

[Rastan78]

from Japanese joysticks I can recommend 4 shumps only seimitsu LS40, LS56 but they are still worse from mag-stick or suzo

Why only the LS40 or LS56? Personally, I think the LS32 is their best stick.

All in all, there is really only one major difference between a JLF and a Comp. Spring weight.

Are you joking?

[Damocles]

All in all, there is really only one major difference between a JLF and a Comp. Spring weight.

Are you joking?

Emphasis on major. Talking feel, no. This mostly has to do with what I was expecting going into this. Maybe it's how I hold the stick, maybe it's how friggin huge my hands are (we're talking original X-Box pad huge). Either way, I honestly was underwhelmed. I can see how some people would prefer the stick, but it just wasn't different enough for me.


......still staying in my CP though.

[Rastan78]

Emphasis on major. Talking feel, no. This mostly has to do with what I was expecting going into this.

I see what you mean. Just to be totally anal, there's also the square vs. round restrictor, height of the joystick above the CP (JLF should be very low if it's mounted the way it goes into the Blast/Astro panels), accuracy that the stick returns to center without jiggling around, overall quality of construction. I think the JLF is a bit too light myself compared to LS-32, but it's way ahead of any Happ stick IMHO.

In practice, the main difference between JPN sticks and Happ sticks is that with the JPN ones, you can rest your hand on the CP and use only the fingertips to control movement with a very light touch. After getting used to this, it feels like a real chore to use the American style which requires almost the whole wrist and shoulder sometimes. The first time I ever walked into a Japanese arcade, I was stunned to see a player executing a Zangief 720 spinning pile driver motion while resting his wrist comfortably on the CP. This was done while just walking up to a standing opponent without jumping in or another punch or kick coming out first.

I might be curious to try the Mag-Stik that you guys are talking about just for the heck of it. The magnetic return to center thing looks a bit iffy, but who knows. Is the restrictor on the Mag-Stik round or square?

[destructor]

Mag-Stik - square, throw (in degress) = 3,5 degrees
Seimitsu LS-32 is most popular but not best Seimitsu stick for shmups.

[kowal]

from Japanese joysticks I can recommend 4 shumps only seimitsu LS40, LS56 but they are still worse from mag-stick or suzo

Why only the LS40 or LS56? Personally, I think the LS32 is their best stick.

travel to engagement on LS40 (3,5mm) and LS56 is shorter from LS32 (4,5mm). for me this too long (>4mm). Good stick should have 2,5-3,5mm. LS32 is better from sanwa but this does not mean that it is the best ever.
you can personally like LS32 but this is just personal.
when you compare him from different joysticks then you will know.
I do not tell what I like. I tell what it good in playing.