Italy vs Shmups.com

[BR1]

Oooooooooooooooooopppppppssssssssssssssssss!!!!



Please forgive me, everybody: for no reason I confused Spetty with Goku (which is no more in the team).

See ya later: I'm going to phisically punish myself...

[Turrican]

Due to this board alone, I can conclude that Italy is full of assholes.

How do you permit offending one nation just for a matter of videogames?

Nationalist, huh? But if you read the thread from the start, you'll see that actually it was Randorama to start with racism towards italians - è proprio vero che siamo sempre i soliti...

p.s. it could be very well reversed, how do you permit to think that such thing as a "nation" is take in higher regard than videogames, especially in a shmups forum? ^_^

[NTSC-J]

I see a troll.

Pretty much. Looking over my posts I don't think I was uncivil or out of line, but this guy continues to go at me like I ruined his life. Let it go, man. I've established myself on this board already as a trustworthy member, if not a bit of an asshole at times, but we all know what I'm really like. Being a smart-ass is just how I roll here. The crack at Italy was so obviously a joke, you either need to study english better or get a sense of humor. You've got no status on this board and aren't doing much for yourself by trying to egg me on. Like I said, if you want to keep arguing with me, do it via PM like an adult so we don't derail this already rocky thread.

destructor: my CPU...I dunno. Pretty low-end computer, but I bought it recently and it runs the current model of mame just fine so I assume wolfmame won't be a problem.

[system11]

Wow, look mommy a trainwreck!

Insisting on INPs is silly. There are multiple ways to still use savestates or similar - why can't you just chill out as NTSC-J says and have a friendly competition without all the whining about legitimacy?

Here we go, how to render INPs untrustworthy:
1) Run wolfmame under vmware, and use the vmware state save.
2) Run wolfmame under a debugger, halt running, save the process state and memory dump

There are probably other ways too. Wolfmame is based on mameplus if I recall, for which the source is available. It might be possible to lightly modify mameplus to /look/ like wolfmame, not sure - never investigated this. Solution 1) above nullifies the whole issue anyway.

[Turrican]

Onor to those who realize videos from the PCB that are even bettere methods to autentify a score, but fews have the possibility to do it, and lesser are the ones who can download hundreds of megabytes for each video.

Would you accept such a video as a proof then? Sure, it may be big to host on the internet, but it takes minutes to burn it onto a dvd and send it to you via snail mail.

[Twiddle]

--MY RIGHT HAND vs SHMUPS.COM--

By the logic that my right hand has survived the staggering daily amount of up-down motion torture that I have exerted on it, I believe my right hand alone is the best tool for video game play in the world.

As an example, I can play A+ titles with obviously non-repetitive gameplay like Ragnarok Online and Maple Story with just my right hand.

I challenge the forum members of SHMUPS.COM in a fight against my right hand in a game of Tugboat.

That's right.

Tugboat.

I will require that the opposing challengers each provide 17 different unique WolfMAME replays, each with the same score, to ensure that the player consistently displays such skill. On top of that, all the opposing players are required to be Japanese, because for all we know, every other race are untrustworthy bastards who will find ways to fudge their replays or falsify their scores.

[destructor]

Wow, look mommy a trainwreck!

Insisting on INPs is silly. There are multiple ways to still use savestates or similar - why can't you just chill out as NTSC-J says and have a friendly competition without all the whining about legitimacy?

Here we go, how to render INPs untrustworthy:
1) Run wolfmame under vmware, and use the vmware state save.
2) Run wolfmame under a debugger, halt running, save the process state and memory dump

There are probably other ways too. Wolfmame is based on mameplus if I recall, for which the source is available. It might be possible to lightly modify mameplus to /look/ like wolfmame, not sure - never investigated this. Solution 1) above nullifies the whole issue anyway.

I see that you don't understand.
WolfMAME is special protected version of MAMEPLUS created for secure replays.
If you don't believe go to MARP forum and ask about it author's WolfMAME -> mahlemiut is his nick.
You can't use save state during playing back, it's disabled. You can't use pause, it's disabled.
You want to run wolfmame under debugger and change something? Good luck, we will see your effects after 100mln years.
Please first check some features in WolfMAME (simply run it and record) and next write someting.

Mahlemiut created WolfMAME especially for tournaments (excellent and hard work) and you don't want use them. Why?

[Gemant]

Wow, look mommy a trainwreck!

Insisting on INPs is silly. There are multiple ways to still use savestates or similar - why can't you just chill out as NTSC-J says and have a friendly competition without all the whining about legitimacy?

Here we go, how to render INPs untrustworthy:
1) Run wolfmame under vmware, and use the vmware state save.
2) Run wolfmame under a debugger, halt running, save the process state and memory dump

There are probably other ways too. Wolfmame is based on mameplus if I recall, for which the source is available. It might be possible to lightly modify mameplus to /look/ like wolfmame, not sure - never investigated this. Solution 1) above nullifies the whole issue anyway.

I see that you don't understand.
WolfMAME is special protected version of MAMEPLUS created for secure replays.
If you don't believe go to MARP forum and ask about it author's WolfMAME -> mahlemiut is his nick.
You can't use save state during playing back, it's disabled. You can't use pause, it's disabled.
You want to run wolfmame under debugger and change something? Good luck, we will see your effects after 100mln years.
Please first check some features in WolfMAME (simply run it and record) and next write someting.

Mahlemiut created WolfMAME especially for tournaments (excellent and hard work) and you don't want use them. Why?

excellent post Desctructor

[Icarus]

Oh, please, spare me. You're talking about a computer program, and like all computer programs, they can be recoded, hacked, messed with, falsified etc etc. Especially when said program is open-source. MAME is not and never will be the de-facto standard in high-level/WR score verification due to the vast array of factors that can affect recording and playback. WolfMAME might be good, but it is not perfect, so don't view it as such.

[destructor]

Guys, please use wolfMAME plus first and next say. WolfMAME is used on MARP, TwinGalaxies, japan replay sites, french sites, italian sites for a few years and no problems. Problem is here because no one from here any one time used this emulator. WolfMAME is used for great tournaments with prizes! You want to use them for tournament with any prize!

1. WolfMAME is maybe more secure than PCB.
2. You can't hack it.
3. You can't recode it.
4. You can't falsified it.
.......
9999999... No source code for wolf99. Even if will be available it's still secure.

Do you think that PCB can't be hacked or recode? You are wrong! I saw how man change almost all in Twin Cobra PCB. Game was totally different, different graphics, different bulltes, different moves of bullets ...

Do you thinks that somebody hack it in a few days for shmup tournament (especially if any prize)? Why didn't hack for other tournaments?

[system11]

I see that you don't understand.

Perhaps you should look at yourself sometime. Do you even know what vmware is? Go and find out, pay particular attention to it's ability to save virtual machine states.

There is no such thing as protected code. There is no such thing as tamperproof. If people want to cheat, they'll always find some way to do so. Wolfmame makes it harder, not impossible. It's the best way to try to ensure honesty, but at the same time, it's also a great way to create an uneven playing field to begin with. Emulation is not accurate, all PCs are different. Maybe your USB controller is slower than another players. Maybe you can't get the correct refresh rate and someone else can. Maybe you play on a CRT and someone else suffers slightly with LCD blur. Maybe your PC is simply faster.

Someone said above, people should accept the challenge the way it was issued - that's a challenge to play games in wolfmame with inputs. That's good advice, people can participate or not. What I object to is the reasoning behind it, and more recently the ridiculous petty squabbling potential accusations.

There's a phrase for this: "a storm in a teacup"

Before I forget - if the emulator is to be sent out to participants with the ROM files, then you should collect participant email addresses and send them the link, as it's against forum rules to link to ROMs.

[sven666]

wow.. just read thru this and it really DID turn into ITALY vs SHMUPS

with that said i wouldnt touch anything MAME with a ten foot shitstick, even for competition purpouses.. and theres nothing wrong with my computer

[destructor]

I see that you don't understand.

Perhaps you should look at yourself sometime. Do you even know what vmware is? Go and find out, pay particular attention to it's ability to save virtual machine states.

And try to playback inp correctly after use your vmware.

Did you tried to use wolfmame to record inp at least one time?
What USB controller, refresh rate, monitor type have to your skills?

[Turrican]

There's a phrase for this: "a storm in a teacup"

"tempesta in un bicchier d'acqua" -we have it too.

[destructor]

OK, if we don't use wolfmame how do you want to check scores?

[Icarus]

Do you thinks that somebody hack it in a few days for shmup tournament (especially if any prize)? Why didn't hack for other tournaments?

Thats just the problem. This isn't a heavy tournament with prizes at stake, its a friendly competition. Creating all this paranoia over falsified records is leaving quite a sour taste in our top player's mouths, and I very much doubt that anyone with decent records would be willing to participate if there was a chance someone could call foul on a table-topping score, verified or not.

In any rate, I'm still willing to participate with whatever rules and verification methods are neccesary. But for God's sake, guys, stop spreading malicious rumors around without any solid proof. I'm not particularly happy seeing the names of good friends (and personal rivals) being tainted by such bullshit.

[Edge]

wow.. just read thru this and it really DID turn into ITALY vs SHMUPS

Yeah, I think that's very sad. I was really looking forward to some friendly competition.

I actually sympathized with your point using WolfMame as proof, which I do myself. But when you started to call certain players liars you hurted the spirit of the whole competition. Now it isn't just a friendly challenge it has become an potential aggressive attitude. Not playing as friendly rivals more as proofing the one side is wrong or inferior...

I'd still like to join a competition, but i dunno if all the players would be this enthusiastic about the competition as before.

[destructor]

Quarrels or something like as quarrels are normal thing before tournaments. Don't worry about tournament

[Edge]

I think a "quarrel" wasn't really neccassary and I'd like to go on a shmup compo without these "WHO HAVE THE BEST SKILLZ EVAAHHH"-drama like some fighting game geeks do. Note, "some" fighting game fans do, not all.

That's at least my opinion.

[NTSC-J]

Yea I think this competition has all but been ruined.

I would ask the Italian team to take a look at some of our larger score threads and at the Weekly Score Challenges started by Ramus some months ago and notice how much fun and comaraderie we all had, with not one accusation or hissy fit. Sure there's a chance that a score was faked, but no one gives a shit, we all had fun.

If anything, do some of you guys want to have a tournament based on Edge's plan? Doing it on an individual basis could work just as well.

However, I request that we run background checks on player's credit histories and I would demand at least two forms of government ID.

[LUNardei]

I have to say that I'm pretty glad to be out of all this
Someone has already won his contest (and before september ), but I'd still like to see the real contest played. Go for it guys!

[Icarus]

However, I request that we run background checks on player's credit histories and I would demand at least two forms of government ID.

You know that paper-based documentation can be faked right?
How about we use genetic fingerprinting instead? ^_-

[destructor]

And what is more interesting: watching replay and learn new methods? Or watching end score only and nothing more?

[NTSC-J]

No one is against replays, but when they're mandatory for fear of cheating it's a different story. I'm fine with players providing replays if they can, but in terms of score verification a screen cap will do imo.

Also a full body cavity search. And players must remove their shoes and and any metallic objects before playing.

[destructor]

I see that discussion go to start point again I don;t know why people don't want to record replays. Fear? Or maybe want to make fake screens?

I think best solution will be choose 4 persons. 2 from Italy, 2 from Shmups and these persons set all rules.

[Icarus]

And what is more interesting: watching replay and learn new methods? Or watching end score only and nothing more?

You know, there are some people on this forum that think replays and strategy guides are a form of cheating themselves. There's been long, pointless debate over that particular issue.

Dig around the forum, you might find the threads.

[Smraedis]

And what is more interesting: watching replay and learn new methods? Or watching end score only and nothing more?

If you have to upload straight after you make your score, then wouldn't that get complaints? like what happened in a certain tournament on MARP?

[destructor]

And what is more interesting: watching replay and learn new methods? Or watching end score only and nothing more?

You know, there are some people on this forum that think replays and strategy guides are a form of cheating themselves. There's been long, pointless debate over that particular issue.

Dig around the forum, you might find the threads.

I don't must dig this forum.
I can say some words about it:
1. http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/view ... 2016#42016
2. http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/view ... 2023#42023

In point 2 I write 5 points:

1. Fear
2. For copying methods skills are required too
3. Play more on MARP (or other places with public scores) then you will understand a bit more
4. Score (replay) in secret = win without glory
5. You will die with your secrets in darkness

Smraedis: remember that in MARP tournament is 48 hours rule for upload replay I like shows new methods for others but always have surprise for last day of round/tournament.

PS. I still have 1 score (one person watched it year back) which I hide until it will be in tournament with prizes. Name this game is Congo Bongo

[DC906270]

i think the Italians won, everybody on here seems to be trying to get out of the challenge

(runs)

[Icarus]

1. Fear
2. For copying methods skills are required too
3. Play more on MARP (or other places with public scores) then you will understand a bit more
4. Score (replay) in secret = win without glory
5. You will die with your secrets in darkness

1) I'm scared of nothing. I don't care if I come 1st, 10th or 100th.
2) That's my argument too. But there are still naysayers who think replay viewing and strategy guide writing is cheating. Who cares?
3) Meh. MARP does not have the kind of tournaments I'm interested in. Here I play against people with similar tastes in games to myself.
4) I don't play for the glory, I play for my own enjoyment, and for the fun of competing against good players.
5) I contribute more to strategy on this forum than you realise.

i think the Italians won, everybody on here seems to be trying to get out of the challenge

They win because they think we're all cheaters.