What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Sima Tuna]

Gran Turismo is still the king when it comes to single player racing game progression for me.

Not talking about whatever the newest live service game is called, but the old classics like GT2, GT3 and GT4.

I'm just playing through GT1 and GT2 now for the first time, and I'm feeling this.

You start getting your arse beat, and then through gradual upgrades and tuning and just plain knowledge of the car itself, you can start to dominate.
But no matter how much you trick out your vehicle, a starter car is never going to carry you through to the end of the game*.

Spoiler

Yeah, I know it's a 30-year old game and there are probably optimised routes for "minimal spending, minimal vehicle swaps", but I'm coming in cold and with a "that car looks cool I wanna drive it" perspective so...

Whether it's straight cup progression, or special events that have drivetrain or weight specifications (and all of that policed by HP restrictions - in GT2, at least), you're constantly being asked to shift around and become a master of all trades (which is probably why licenses have mandated vehicles and it's not just run what you brung).

And to do that you have various ways of sifting through all of the above - you can incrementally fine tune something you actually enjoy; you can bust your butt winning prize cars and then beast on everything; and/or you can just plain chuck a tonne of cash at the problem. But there's never just one way out of a situation.

So there's a definite ladder where you're going to hit brickwalls, but there's also a lot of lateral movement.

Christ it feels daffy finding this all out after tens of millions of sales and thirty years, but it really is a great way of doing things.

Gran Turismo gives you a good reason to keep saving up for cars. You want certain cars for certain cups or events, since many of those only allow entry with specific manufacturers or types of cars. You never really reach a point where you have one overpowered car that can dominate every event, because the next event might ask you to drive a VW Golf against a bunch of other VW cars in the alps or whatever.

The sheer amount of JDM stuff is also great. Gran Turismo leans into the car culture from its country of origin. Of course, there are cars from around the world, but if you like Japanese cars then the game has its specialty there.

The prize cars are great in GT because it's a free vehicle which, even if you don't like it, might be useful for an upcoming event! It's a way to save money while progressing. I've made a lot of sub-par or strange cars work specifically because they were prize cars and I could save a lot of money by minimally upgrading them and forcing them through the events I needed that car for.

Gran Turismo really is the king. I wrote the entire series off when I was a kid/teen (I was playing Midnight Club 3, F-Zero GX and GTA Vice City instead) and I regret that. CAR-PG is a great genre.

Horizon tries to do similar things to GT but I don't think it carries them off as well. It does have classes but it's too easy to be drowned in powerful cars you can use to dominate every vehicle class. Especially if you then upgrade those powerful cars until they're just on the cusp of breaking into a new performance class (but don't take them over). Nothing in that current class can touch them if you do that.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Since on last weekend my nephew (about to turn 12 this August) was in my mom's place, where my CRTs and "SD" ("retro") consoles are stored, and I was also there supposed to supervise his doing homework (while his mom was in Germany for weekend), when he was losing concentration clearly, we took a break and I demonstrated S&P2 to him.
He ridiculed old graphics first, but also recalled I played it in his presence when he was younger and kept making pretty inquisitive remarks while I played (not very willing to play it himself; I think he did not want to be seen failing, and of course I didn't impose playing it on him). About how there's no reloading weapon as well as ammo isn't limited whatsoever. Was curious if I played the first one, so I told him about N64 and emulators.
And really, I felt most grateful to Treasure for S&P2 being the way it is. My skills at it appeared not even as rusty as I feared. See, I've been kind of "resurfacing" as a gaming person lately, and I don't wanna lose this side of mine, so to speak. I also claim to be a pretty competent one at demonstrating the ways at least some of gaming used to be. What's ever been any good about it. That it was NOT about credit-feeding emulated Metal Slug, but getting better at a game thanks to improving oneself at playing it.
Come to think of it, he might like The Red Star on PS2 a lot. He's been into alternate history mind games of late.
P. S. He recognised Japanese giant spider crab in the Undersea level. Memorable species, I guess.

[Daytime Waitress]

Oh yeah, the old Gran Turismo caRPG progression was tops. I do feel like Gran Turismo really started to loose a lot of it's luster around GT4 and GT5. At one point it was a huge system seller (It's the reason I bought a PS1 and a PS2), but now Gran Turismo is just kinda... there. A few bad sequels will do that, I suppose.

Back when I started to give more a hoot about driving games, I tried out GT6 and, at the time, I completely bounced off the "chase the rabbit" style gameplay and extreme rubber-banding (not to mention the aesthetics kind of having their corners rounded off). I haven't had nearly as strong a reaction against GT1 nor GT2 - though a current "unrestricted" tuning challenge where everyone's around my sub-300 mark and one prick in an Integra clearly has 60hp on us is definitely grinding my gears...

I like Forza's Horizon 6's progression too. The wrist band system limits you to certain types of cars in certain types of classes until you accumulate enough points to advance to the next class. So it kind of has the limitations of the Gran Turismo caRPG progression, but then you can drop into a supercar and run around at 200 mph and do all the fun wanderlust exploration in between if you want. I think they could go further with it and make it more limiting and have you spend more time in the lower ranks, but the idea is solid, I think.

From what little I've seen of it, it appears really eager to make the player feel like they're constantly winning - between throwing rare/powerful cars at them, and the constant "XP feedback" popping up on screen - so the fact that they don't keep you in the lower divisions is probably just part of that mentality.

What have you been enjoying the most, in terms of cars and events, but?

Gran Turismo gives you a good reason to keep saving up for cars. You want certain cars for certain cups or events, since many of those only allow entry with specific manufacturers or types of cars. You never really reach a point where you have one overpowered car that can dominate every event, because the next event might ask you to drive a VW Golf against a bunch of other VW cars in the alps or whatever.

Does it bloody ever, though! After getting a hold of my I-A license...

Spoiler

all bronze, not prepared to nail my balls to that particular stepstool just yet, thank you

...I didn't feel like tackling five races in a row for the league, so I figured I'd saunter into the Kei Cup with a stock Cube and just blitz everything because, hey, later game license, I'm obviously King Shit. After an embarrassing amount of retries and money thrown into upgrades in the wrong spots, I realised it was the Cube's weight that was bogging it down more than slow gear shifts.

Not being familiar with setups, nor sure of how to interpret what feedback the game is giving you, can be very challenging, but not unpleasantly so.

Similarly, the next thing I tackled was the MR Cup and the objective became getting the Elise 135 to behave like less of a goddamn drama queen - although in this instance I could immediately identify that the problem was the arse end going into hysterics, immediately correcting itself, and then promptly yeeting itself into the nearest wall. So the task became adjusting dampers and toe to make it be less of a diva; and wondering if strengthening the back brakes would make it more reliable overall, while simultaneously amplifying the negative qualities when driving at the limit. I've so far got it to be less hideous, at the cost of two seconds per lap - "in order to finish first, first you must finish", and all that

[Steven]

Tales of Destiny Director's Cut... I've had enough of the optional dungeon. I have Narikiri Lion. I wish I had Narikiri Lilith, but I don't want to see this place any more right now.

Let's move on to Lion's side, and let's try Chaos difficulty because why not. Turns out that the friendly AI loves few things more than getting one-shotted by everything. It's dangerous to even go level up a bunch because the weakest things around still kill Stan and Mary in one or two hits. Lion goes down in one to basically everything, so it's good that I have Gen'eijin. Evil was extremely rough on Stan's side until getting Philia, after which it turned out to be quite excellent for the rest of the game, so I wonder if this mode is actually balanced around single play or Stan's side because on Lion's side this seems ridiculous. Yes, I know it's kind of dumb to put an already difficult game on the highest difficulty setting and then complain that it's way too hard, but maybe I'm missing something obvious here.

Also suddenly discovered after all this time that this game has a very, very fast text skip option that you get from holding square + X simultaneously. It's been 17 years since I first played this game. How the hell did I not know this until 20 minutes ago? This game never ceases to delight me with its goodness.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Let's move on to Lion's side, and let's try Chaos difficulty because why not.

CUZ IT'S HARD D:

Actually it's a lot more manageable depending on the grade shop goodies you brought, that's a big factor. In some ways solo is easier in the sense that the massive CC you get lets you do much longer combos and lock down enemies more effectively than in a group with low CC caps. I still suspect solo's tougher in the long run though.

Also suddenly discovered after all this time that this game has a very, very fast text skip option that you get from holding square + X simultaneously.

You can do it in a few other games! I think I first discovered it playing Tales of Rebirth? It's not like Star Ocean 3 where you can outright do Event Skip which bypasses cutscenes outright, but it's still quite speedy if you don't want to read the dialogue. Very thoughtful of them to include it.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Oh yeah, the old Gran Turismo caRPG progression was tops. I do feel like Gran Turismo really started to loose a lot of it's luster around GT4 and GT5. At one point it was a huge system seller (It's the reason I bought a PS1 and a PS2), but now Gran Turismo is just kinda... there. A few bad sequels will do that, I suppose.

Back when I started to give more a hoot about driving games, I tried out GT6 and, at the time, I completely bounced off the "chase the rabbit" style gameplay and extreme rubber-banding (not to mention the aesthetics kind of having their corners rounded off). I haven't had nearly as strong a reaction against GT1 nor GT2 - though a current "unrestricted" tuning challenge where everyone's around my sub-300 mark and one prick in an Integra clearly has 60hp on us is definitely grinding my gears...

I like Forza's Horizon 6's progression too. The wrist band system limits you to certain types of cars in certain types of classes until you accumulate enough points to advance to the next class. So it kind of has the limitations of the Gran Turismo caRPG progression, but then you can drop into a supercar and run around at 200 mph and do all the fun wanderlust exploration in between if you want. I think they could go further with it and make it more limiting and have you spend more time in the lower ranks, but the idea is solid, I think.

From what little I've seen of it, it appears really eager to make the player feel like they're constantly winning - between throwing rare/powerful cars at them, and the constant "XP feedback" popping up on screen - so the fact that they don't keep you in the lower divisions is probably just part of that mentality.

What have you been enjoying the most, in terms of cars and events, but?

Gran Turismo gives you a good reason to keep saving up for cars. You want certain cars for certain cups or events, since many of those only allow entry with specific manufacturers or types of cars. You never really reach a point where you have one overpowered car that can dominate every event, because the next event might ask you to drive a VW Golf against a bunch of other VW cars in the alps or whatever.

Does it bloody ever, though! After getting a hold of my I-A license...

Spoiler

all bronze, not prepared to nail my balls to that particular stepstool just yet, thank you

...I didn't feel like tackling five races in a row for the league, so I figured I'd saunter into the Kei Cup with a stock Cube and just blitz everything because, hey, later game license, I'm obviously King Shit. After an embarrassing amount of retries and money thrown into upgrades in the wrong spots, I realised it was the Cube's weight that was bogging it down more than slow gear shifts.

Not being familiar with setups, nor sure of how to interpret what feedback the game is giving you, can be very challenging, but not unpleasantly so.

Similarly, the next thing I tackled was the MR Cup and the objective became getting the Elise 135 to behave like less of a goddamn drama queen - although in this instance I could immediately identify that the problem was the arse end going into hysterics, immediately correcting itself, and then promptly yeeting itself into the nearest wall. So the task became adjusting dampers and toe to make it be less of a diva; and wondering if strengthening the back brakes would make it more reliable overall, while simultaneously amplifying the negative qualities when driving at the limit. I've so far got it to be less hideous, at the cost of two seconds per lap - "in order to finish first, first you must finish", and all that

To play the Hi-Spec version of PSX Gran Turismo was definitely a highlight back in the late 1990s.

Even playing the USA NTSC version of of SCEA's Motor Toon Gran Prix (aka Motor Toon Gran Prix 2 in Japan) on the PSX/PS1 was awesome, especially if playing a "head-to-head" linked-up gaming session of MTGP with two PSX consoles, a Sony PSX link-up cable interface & two CRT TVs = priceless fun!

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Steven]

Let's move on to Lion's side, and let's try Chaos difficulty because why not.

CUZ IT'S HARD D:

Actually it's a lot more manageable depending on the grade shop goodies you brought, that's a big factor. In some ways solo is easier in the sense that the massive CC you get lets you do much longer combos and lock down enemies more effectively than in a group with low CC caps. I still suspect solo's tougher in the long run though.

I have extend chain, infinity movement, succeed skill, and succeed food strap. Only other maybe useful thing in there is float gravity, which I have not messed around with yet. This difficulty setting is very difficult, especially when there are flying enemies. Wish I had Narikiri Lilith for Rainbow Arch now. I didn't save over my clear file, so I can go get it and restart Lion's side. I'm in Straylize Forest now, so restarting at this would be trivial, especially if I can have Lilith.

I don't know, I think that Lion's side might start you in a worse position than you would be at the same point on Stan's side, but at least it starts you with a decent amount of healing items, and since I'm on NG++ I didn't have to spend some of the starting money to buy manual mode. Maybe it's just the AI settings or something, but the friendly AI in this game isn't the best at not dying in general and tends to like to run directly into big attacks. There is one thing that single play mode is definitely good for: Lion spends a decent time alone on his side, so having double CC in exchange for nothing in those parts sounds pretty excellent.

Day later edit: so Straylize Forest was fucking awful because of those tree things that one-shot your entire party with Wind Arrow, but the Straylize Temple is... totally fine? Weird. I think the problem with the Wind Arrow spam is that food won't revive you if your whole party dies simultaneously, and one use of Wind Arrow canl hit and kill everyone, so it was entirely possible to get wiped within the first second of a battle if the enemy decided to use Wind Arrow immediately, which is impossible to stop as far as I know, so the only thing you can do is move one character out of the way and let everyone else die and get revived by food. You can be Stan and jump over there and use Souhajin to stop the casting, but if there are two of those tree bastards you're screwed.

What's hard now is no money + no lens = no items, so I'm relying mostly on food, Oberonamin from enemy drops, and Life Discharge to not die. Good thing this game's food system works the way it does, but you still have to keep everyone alive because getting revived by food at the end of a battle means no EXP for whoever was dead. Unlike elsewhere, the enemies inside the first Straylize Temple give decent EXP and there is almost no threat of dying to them, so I'm tempted to linger here for a while and get some EXP and work on the Swordian Devices. Normally I'm of the "if your game requires grinding that means its design is irredeemable shit and it deserves to be tossed in the garbage" mindset, but in this case it might be the only option, and I think making an exception for extremely high difficulty settings might be logical to some extent.

Also suddenly discovered after all this time that this game has a very, very fast text skip option that you get from holding square + X simultaneously.

You can do it in a few other games! I think I first discovered it playing Tales of Rebirth? It's not like Star Ocean 3 where you can outright do Event Skip which bypasses cutscenes outright, but it's still quite speedy if you don't want to read the dialogue. Very thoughtful of them to include it.

I checked all of the main PS2 games plus Eternia. Destiny 2 and Rebirth both have it too, but Destiny 2's isn't super fast like the other two. This will definitely make game overs after long events less button mashy, if nothing else.

Always surprising to play that PS2 version of Symphonia and remember how badly damaged the PS2 port is; those are some of the ugliest textures I've seen in a while, and of course it loads slowly and runs poorly too. Even the new song in the OP doesn't fit and is way worse than Starry Heavens. At least the menus are 60 FPS, unlike the 30 FPS menus on PS3.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Only other maybe useful thing in there is float gravity, which I have not messed around with yet.

Float gravity is exceptionally strong, it changes the physics so air juggles are more forgiving, which is kind of perfect for Chaos; you can keep enemies locked into air combos easier, but Chaos punishes you when enemies escape by virtue of being crazily strong.

Always surprising to play that PS2 version of Symphonia and remember how badly damaged the PS2 port is

Yeah, Gamecube was clearly the more powerful console and it shows in things that got released on GC then ported to PS2 like Resident Evil 4. PS2 was wildly popular, but it didn't have the raw power for 3D that later consoles suddenly had, so ports had to compromise a lot.

grinding

I don't mind a bit of grinding, and I find a lot of complaints about grinding are in games where honestly with a bit of craftyness you can push on at a fairly low level if you want. It gives you the option to decide how challenging you want the fights in a sense.

I've played some games with tremendously awful grinding so I'm always skeptical when people say a game is grindy, most of the time it's really not bad or it's exaggerated. DQ1 is pretty much pure grinding, it's a bit bland as there's not much strategy in a single character game but it goes at a decent pace. Ssolo thief in FF1 takes the cake, you need to level to 26 or so before the early game Astos is doable, and enemies are actively running from you at that level, making it hard to get exp from normal fights. It takes freakin' forever to level up.

[Steven]

Float gravity is exceptionally strong, it changes the physics so air juggles are more forgiving, which is kind of perfect for Chaos; you can keep enemies locked into air combos easier, but Chaos punishes you when enemies escape by virtue of being crazily strong.

I thought about float gravity, but I decided to keep playing with the regular gravity for at least this playthrough to get the "normal" Lion's side experience, even though most of it isn't that different from Stan's side.

Yeah, Gamecube was clearly the more powerful console and it shows in things that got released on GC then ported to PS2 like Resident Evil 4. PS2 was wildly popular, but it didn't have the raw power for 3D that later consoles suddenly had, so ports had to compromise a lot.

Isn't the PS2 the complete opposite of the PS1, where the PS1 was super simple to program for and the PS2 was really annoying? Of course, the PS2 was the only console that mattered during that generation because of the massive gulf in sales between it and everything else, so third party console game devs skipping it was not a great financial move, but it being both more annoying to program for and also weaker than the Gamecube and Xbox probably resulted in some not-great ports. PC, Genesis, and Gamecube were my primary things during that generation (90% PC, 10% the rest) while the PS2 was primarily a dust collector and occasionally a DVD player, so I'm not too familiar with it or its library, but this is the general image I have of it.

I know people don't like the Dracula X Saturn port, but I think Symphonia's PS2 port is actually way worse. At least they fixed the multiplayer camera! There's literally no reason to ever play the PS2 version now since the PS3 version is just way better. The PS2 version (barely) outsold the Gamecube version in Japan, too, so most Japanese people played the version that performs much worse.

Big spoilers in this document, but I have heard the PS4 version and especially the Switch version are actually super horrid or something, and possibly worse than the PS2 version depending on how you look at it, but they did add an event skip function, which is definitely going to make getting all of the endings way more convenient. I almost got the PS4 version a few months ago before I realized that I needed to get Knight of Ratatosk too, so I went PS3 in the end. This document also scared me away too, but it was mostly Knight of Ratatosk. The Switch version apparently is borderline unplayable on Switch 2 due to crashing, but I don't think I'm ever going to experience that myself.

I don't mind a bit of grinding, and I find a lot of complaints about grinding are in games where honestly with a bit of craftyness you can push on at a fairly low level if you want. It gives you the option to decide how challenging you want the fights in a sense.

What I like about Tales games is that you can almost always win by relying on nothing but pure skill. With turn-based games, because evasion isn't up to the player in most cases like it is in an action game, I think it's entirely possible for a game to just say "fuck you, your stats aren't good enough, go to the game over screen now", but you don't really get that with Tales games if you have sufficient skill, and you can win almost any fight with nothing else. I have to say "almost" because Legendia's an exception, and even that is only because there are a surprising number of scripted unwinnable fights in that game. I know you can get softlocked in SFC Phantasia early in the game too, but otherwise I think it applies universally or almost universally. It may suck ass and take five hours and a billion hits of doing 1 damage per hit to kill stuff sometimes on higher difficulties, but you can do it.

In this case, you can't really grind on Lion's side on Chaos anyway until you get to the first Straylize Temple. I don't know if Holy Bottles are available 20 minutes into the game, but if they are, it might be worth Holy Bottling your way there if needed; Straylize Forest is way too dangerous, and the enemies on the world map before that give like 20~30 EXP per battle and you need like 1000 EXP to level up a single time, so it's going to take forever, and of course if you leave your whole party on auto to grind on the world map while AFK...

[ryu]

Isn't the PS2 the complete opposite of the PS1, where the PS1 was super simple to program for and the PS2 was really annoying?

It's the PS3 that had a unique non-standard processor architecture and was difficult to program for. Never heard any such story about the PS2, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're right because back then tech was still experimental and not every console was just a PC...

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It's the PS3 that had a unique non-standard processor architecture and was difficult to program for.

Yeah, if the sheer size of the PS2 library and the sheer number of different devs for smaller, less known games is anything to judge by, PS2 development was by no means unusual or difficult to do, relatively speaking.

[Obiwanshinobi]

So, does any of you think Tales of Symphonia on GameCube looked/run any better than Tales of Destiny remake on PS2? Be it first one or Director's Cut.

[Steven]

Isn't the PS2 the complete opposite of the PS1, where the PS1 was super simple to program for and the PS2 was really annoying?

It's the PS3 that had a unique non-standard processor architecture and was difficult to program for. Never heard any such story about the PS2, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're right because back then tech was still experimental and not every console was just a PC...

Checked and it's both of them.

So, does any of you think Tales of Symphonia on GameCube looked/run any better than Tales of Destiny remake on PS2? Be it first one or Director's Cut.

Nope. I just checked and even Gamecube Symphonia doesn't have progressive scan, a huge disappointment. Both have surprising amounts of slowdown in battle, but Symphonia has both more and worse slowdown from what I remember. I also highly doubt that it runs at 60 FPS outside of battles and menus, but the Destiny remake is always 60 FPS except for when there is slowdown. Gamecube Symphonia also has that thing where the sides of the screen are intentionally blurry for some reason and I never liked that. They got rid of it in every subsequent version for some reason, so if you want your game to look blurry, you have to play it on Gamecube. There is also the issue of the multiplayer camera in the Gamecube version that makes it more annoying than it should be to play multiplayer.

Might as well mention that the main reasons to play the original version of the remake are that it's cheaper, at only 25% of the price of Director's Cut, which means 500 yen instead of 2000, and that it's easier, in case you want to play an easier version. Otherwise...

[To Far Away Times]

Had an hour to kill between work and a hangout afterwords so I went to Ground Kontrol arcade and got my customary TGM3 and Super Hang-On 1CC’s.

Tried a new Godzilla pinball and was quite impressed with it too. It’s got some fun magnet shenanigans and the whole table vibrates when you do stuff. It is also clearly modeled after the early “man in a Godzilla suit knocking over styrofoam buildings” style camp and it is wonderful.

[Starfighter]

I'm finally giving Total Chaos a go! I first got it when it was a mod, then I bought it on Steam when it was released as a standalone game. But I never really played it, I just sort of installed it and fiddled about with the settings.

Anyway, I'm only an hour in and I've already encountered some bugs, one is particularly irritating - whenever I close a journal entry (text on paper) I get an animation clearly meant for when I find audio cassettes. My hands are popping a tape into a walkman and then presses play - while a text prompt is telling me I can stop playback with [button]. But there's no playback, because I've only read a text. It's so weird, and it happens every. single. time. I also get a lot of stutter even though I have a PC that's about seventy-eight times stronger than the recommended specs.

Apart from that it seems promising!

[m.sniffles.esq]

Thus far, Horizon 6 is pretty dull. It basically double-downs on all the problems of 5

• Somehow driving physics are even less realistic, which I didn't know was even possible (within three minutes, I managed to slide a GMC Jimmy around a corner doing about 70mph. A GMC Jimmy)

• Map is even more pointlessly gigantic (they even acknowledge this by giving the player an 'auto-drive' feature)

• Radio stations all sound identical, save for the classical station which only has like three pieces (this is an area where they should be emulating GTA)

• Initial car selection is incredibly generic (although, there's some interesting ones available in wheelspins. And I'm certain they're saving more than a few for paid DLC). One would think given the venue it would offer more Japanese deep-cuts, but alas...

• Races are now just straight-up demolition derbies (even non-races are demolition derbies. There are these 'cultural tour' missions where you are part of a sightseeing convoy, and the computer cars keep slamming in to me like we're racing)

I think I may have become one of those annoying people that considers 4 to be 'peak' Horizon.

[Steven]

Done with Tales of Destiny Director's Cut... for now. I finished Lion's side at about 0430 this morning, went to sleep shortly after dawn, and just a few minutes ago Holy Bottled my way to Demon's Lance Zero.

I'd heard Lion's side is only about 10 to 12 hours long, and sure enough it was only about 10 to 12 hours long. The new stuff that isn't on Stan's side is extremely short and pitifully easy, even on Chaos, and even the final boss, which you'd figure would be the hardest one in the game given what it is, but it was the easiest in the game for some reason. I tried the final boss again by mainly spamming Demon's Lance Zero and it was even easier and way faster.

I was rather disappointed in Lion's side, and I doubt that I will ever play it again. I have Majinken Setsuga and Demon's Lance Zero now and I beat it on the highest difficulty, so I don't see a reason to play it ever again because Stan's side is better. I will return to Stan's side for sure; it's way too fun to not play.

In the meantime, I have no idea what I am going to do now. I was planning on playing Eternia next, but given the recent PEGI leak, I think I'm going to hold off on that for now. I am considering playing PS1 Destiny and then Destiny 2, Rebirth, Legendia, Knight of Ratatosk, or Arise. I don't know which of these it will be, but I did put my PS1 copy of Destiny in my PS2 already.

[vol.2]

It's the PS3 that had a unique non-standard processor architecture and was difficult to program for.

Yeah, if the sheer size of the PS2 library and the sheer number of different devs for smaller, less known games is anything to judge by, PS2 development was by no means unusual or difficult to do, relatively speaking.

It's more complicated than that. The core architecture for the PS3 was PowerPC derived, just like the PS2, and did not alone make for a difficult development process. What made the PS3 specifically more sucky was the the broken online components and the weird video modes, coupled with poor developer support from Sony for their hardware at launch (it did get better).

I think that the XBOX/360 also massively contributed to the feeling that it was difficult to develop for because the XBOX was using something a lot closer to the insides of a PC, so you could target for both without too much trouble. The PS2 was mostly a massive success because the cost of a DVD player was basically the same as a PS2, and the momentum for the system scaled with its install base. Sony tried to repeat the same trick with the PS3, but the price was (initially) way too high, and many people in the US were still stuck on SD TVs that could take advantage of the PS3 hardware improvements anyway

They fell into the same trap as Sega did, waiting too long to release a follow-up to the PS2, but at least they didn't make a 32X. What I think they should have done is release a PS3 a few years earlier that was a 480p machine, similar to the Wii, but with much greater 3D capabilities. That would have more closely matched the global adoption of display technology and bridged the gap to 1080p. Or failing that, they should have just waited a few more years and released a 1080p machine that was fully baked. But the PS was too big to fail I supposed.

[Sumez]

I'm always a bit skeptical when I hear people talking about consoles being "difficult to develop for". Generally, those things don't mean anything unless you hear it directly from someone who programmed a finished game on one, and even then it really needs to be qualified with specific explanations, because something that vague can mean anything.

I remember word of mouth saying the same thing about SNES, and I found that it was incredibly easy to make stuff on - especially coming from 8-bit systems (as devs would have also done back in the days) it loses a lot of the otherwise established constraints simply due to how much more powerful it is.
I imagine, similarly the challenges with the PS2 would at least depend on exactly what you were even trying to do with it.

[vol.2]

I'm always a bit skeptical when I hear people talking about consoles being "difficult to develop for". Generally, those things don't mean anything unless you hear it directly from someone who programmed a finished game on one, and even then it really needs to be qualified with specific explanations, because something that vague can mean anything.

I remember word of mouth saying the same thing about SNES, and I found that it was incredibly easy to make stuff on - especially coming from 8-bit systems (as devs would have also done back in the days) it loses a lot of the otherwise established constraints simply due to how much more powerful it is.
I imagine, similarly the challenges with the PS2 would at least depend on exactly what you were even trying to do with it.

Like I said, there isn't a lot of direct evidence that the core architecture of both the PS2 and PS3 were uniquely difficult to develop for, but there is definitely documented growing pains with the online components of the PS3, and there are easily searchable interviews with major game devs complaining about Sony's lackluster developer support for their new hardware in the earlier days of the console.

I also agree with you that neither of these things add up to a specifically difficult to develop for platform, but it did give the PS3 that reputation.

And it is also true that you can find many accounts of game developers praising the ease of co-developing PC and XBOX/360 games because of the underlying hardware's similarity to an off-the-shelf PC of the day.

So you might say that it's not a case of the PS3 being a bad development platform, but more of the XBOX ecosystem introducing a new level of software compatibility with the PC. I don't think it's a coincidence that Sony dropped the Cell Architecture in favor of something more XBOX-like going forward. With the rise of Steam, the majority of games had to work in both places, and the public was increasingly expecting parity between options.

[AGermanArtist]

Marathon may not be in a good place if you care about player counts, but Season 2 is fucking exceptional online gaming.
This is not the same game as release day, it's evolved into a chaotic horror nightmare that while punishing, is so much fun to play.
I can get how being repeatedly shat on can be off-putting, but you're not going to come into this from Call of Duty and think you're going to dominate lobbies like maybe you did there. You have to persevere and learn to play the game and its maps. In doing so rewards you for your patience and determination. It's been 2 mths now since I played Arc Raiders, which is just boring by comparison.